By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions. We in turn value your personal details in accordance with our Privacy Policy.
Please log in or register. Registered visitors get fewer ads.
Trying to focus on the data itself rather than the narrative - but as a pretty left-wing person in general I do find the data itself to be rather concerning.
Any data buffs around who can offer some reassurance that this is misguided somehow? Otherwise - feels like there's a need for a more open and honest conversation.
EDIT: would have been helpful to share the study (disclaimer: the narrative is biased and anti-immigration - but the data mentioned is what I'm more interested in)
well, not being told how the data was collected is a bad start. as is not being able to see the original data. plus, their results are not controlled by age, sex, or location. plus nationality and migration status can lead to all sorts of confusion. so if a particular 'nationality' in the uk is primarily made up of 20-30 year old males living in a high crime area then it wouldn't be surprising if that was associated with a high crime rate. there is evidence that in certain areas drug, gang and knife crime is disproportionally associated with some groups, but the data analysis would need to be a lot stronger than this.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
0
Migrant "crime crisis" on 19:50 - Mar 11 with 1660 views
Migrant "crime crisis" on 18:15 - Mar 11 by NeedhamChris
Can I ask you a really basic question then..
Do you think people from all countries are as likely to commit crimes as each other?
You're implying that certain nationalities are more likely to commit crimes than others when in reality things like economics and circumstance are far more likely to drive one to crime than nationality.
SB
1
Migrant "crime crisis" on 19:50 - Mar 11 with 1667 views
Wish I lived in the world some people live in where opposition to immigration was taboo, instead the one I live in has pretty much every newspaper, every politics TV show, the vast majority of mainstream politicians laying into migrants and asylum seekers from dusk til dawn.
It appears the Government and Opposition have both commented on it without disputing it.
(Reading it again, its possible the Express have framed that to make the Government response look like a response to these figures when it may be a response to Cooper's new initiative, but even so)
I'm hoping we are all still fact-based on here even if the facts are uncomfortable.
[Post edited 11 Mar 18:29]
That article is just citing the conclusions of the article on the opening post.
It literally says it in the article. It's not an independent analysis or any form of verification.
SB
[Post edited 11 Mar 19:59]
4
Migrant "crime crisis" on 20:01 - Mar 11 with 1593 views
Migrant "crime crisis" on 19:29 - Mar 11 by BlueBadger
As much as the OP is falling for far right hot takes, what does this mean?
I would suspect that it means that the OP does not actually have the political leanings they repeatedly claim to have, on the basis that their posts on political matters suggest their views are on the other side of the spectrum. A more sophisticated version of Pecker's "I'm a remainer but" effort perhaps.
I think Clive was spot on with his analysis of the OP a few weeks ago.
6
Migrant "crime crisis" on 20:15 - Mar 11 with 1534 views
It's a FOI request to the Ministry of Justice. When you drill down on them they're pretty meaningless numbers really, because (a) they're relatively small numbers in total spread across all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds, spuriously grouped together as "foreigners" and (b) they're conviction numbers not crime committed numbers, so as likely to reflect who gets policed rather than who gets convicted anyway.
It's a FOI request to the Ministry of Justice. When you drill down on them they're pretty meaningless numbers really, because (a) they're relatively small numbers in total spread across all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds, spuriously grouped together as "foreigners" and (b) they're conviction numbers not crime committed numbers, so as likely to reflect who gets policed rather than who gets convicted anyway.
It's once again citing the analysis of the single guy who seems to run that think tank (as per my Reddit link).
As you say, there looks to be quite a bit of "p-hacking" in the analysis.
SB
0
Migrant "crime crisis" on 20:47 - Mar 11 with 1424 views
I would suspect that it means that the OP does not actually have the political leanings they repeatedly claim to have, on the basis that their posts on political matters suggest their views are on the other side of the spectrum. A more sophisticated version of Pecker's "I'm a remainer but" effort perhaps.
I think Clive was spot on with his analysis of the OP a few weeks ago.
I don't have the political leanings I claim to have because I'm also a little concerned about the impacts of migration?
Whilst it appeals to some of the regular forum bullies like Stokie and Herbibore who go around the forum upvoting these types of snide comments - what good does that do?
What other political posts can you find that supports what you've said below - or are you just making it up as you go along?
Politically - my ideal would be a Green/Lab coalition government - that doesn't mean I have to cheer along like a football fan and agree with everything that the 'team' does. You remind me of quite a few in the Green party who have told me in the past you can't be Green and pro-nuclear.
And the most frustrating thing - is that I will still vote Lab/Green - but the attitude you and others take when people have a different view is actively driving people away from the positions we support.
Winner of the "most obvious troll ever seen on here" award, sponsored by _Clive_Baker
Migrant "crime crisis" on 19:50 - Mar 11 by StokieBlue
You're implying that certain nationalities are more likely to commit crimes than others when in reality things like economics and circumstance are far more likely to drive one to crime than nationality.
SB
And you're implying that the country that someone was brought up in or lives in - has no bearing whatsoever on their likelihood to break UK laws?
I'm not saying at all that economics and circumstance don't play a part - but you appear to deny culture/nationality playing any part whatsoever?
Winner of the "most obvious troll ever seen on here" award, sponsored by _Clive_Baker
Migrant "crime crisis" on 20:50 - Mar 11 by NeedhamChris
Irrespective of the views on the data - the dumbing down of political discourse in this country is on full display here.
It is not exclusively far right to suggest that there are particular issues caused by immigration.
But it is far right to only view an issue through the lens of migration with the aim of discrediting foreigners, as that article is doing.
There may be some truth buried in there somewhere, there may not. Irrespective, any article that fails to consider the wider range of relevant factors beyond nationality is obviously presenting an argument in bad faith.
Migrant "crime crisis" on 16:48 - Mar 11 by NeedhamChris
Benters has already had two references - I don't think I've ever seen anything directly racist from him yet his well-known concerns mean he's told he should be in the BNP.
It happens - it shouldn't - and it pushes people to the parties we then complain about.
The machine gunning immigrants at the channel tunnel was one of TWTDs lowest moments.
Migrant "crime crisis" on 20:56 - Mar 11 by NeedhamChris
And you're implying that the country that someone was brought up in or lives in - has no bearing whatsoever on their likelihood to break UK laws?
I'm not saying at all that economics and circumstance don't play a part - but you appear to deny culture/nationality playing any part whatsoever?
This is genuinely startling and not the conclusion I thought would be pushed from the narrative of migrant crime. Isn't the usual narrative young men coming over getting involved in petty crime and gangs in deprived areas? Not just that they are from countries which are inately producing more criminals. That to me is very dangerous and loaded and old school 'these people from here are good and allowed, these people are from here and are wrong uns' and lower than us'.
4
Migrant "crime crisis" on 21:24 - Mar 11 with 1238 views
Migrant "crime crisis" on 20:59 - Mar 11 by StokieBlue
Please provide peer reviewed evidence that the likelihood of someone to commit a crime is based on nationality rather than socioeconomic factors.
You've implied and then stated an assertion so I assume you have the independently verified analysis to back it up.
SB
I haven't said at all that it's THE reason, so have no aim or intention to prove that - I've started a conversation based on an article and suggested a debate around it. Others are seemingly keen to shut that down.
Have the courtesy to answer the question you were asked first - you appear to deny culture/nationality playing any part whatsoever?
Winner of the "most obvious troll ever seen on here" award, sponsored by _Clive_Baker
Migrant "crime crisis" on 21:07 - Mar 11 by StokieBlue
Will you be highlighting the positives gained from immigration or will you just continue to demonise?
Will you acknowledge the data you've highlighted is from a single bad-faith actor with an agenda?
I think given your posting in this thread it's astonishing you'd call out others for dumbing down political discussion.
SB
The scope of this OP was quite specific - about crime rates only in response to an article about crime rates. It was not (and is not) a post about the pros and cons of migration, so I didn't feel the need to provide narrative.
I've already said the narrative is biased - and yes I acknowledge that. However - the data hasn't been contested by government (the narrative definitely biased though).
This is exactly the point that me and others (J2 in this thread) are raising though. One conversation about a potential link between nationality and crime and you're accusing me of demonising all immigrants. You're better than that - or at least you used to be.
Winner of the "most obvious troll ever seen on here" award, sponsored by _Clive_Baker
Migrant "crime crisis" on 21:24 - Mar 11 by NeedhamChris
I haven't said at all that it's THE reason, so have no aim or intention to prove that - I've started a conversation based on an article and suggested a debate around it. Others are seemingly keen to shut that down.
Have the courtesy to answer the question you were asked first - you appear to deny culture/nationality playing any part whatsoever?
You've made the assertion based on an article I've pointed out is hugely flawed, it's absolutely on you to prove it.
SB
[Post edited 11 Mar 21:32]
1
Migrant "crime crisis" on 21:34 - Mar 11 with 1171 views
Migrant "crime crisis" on 21:32 - Mar 11 by NeedhamChris
The scope of this OP was quite specific - about crime rates only in response to an article about crime rates. It was not (and is not) a post about the pros and cons of migration, so I didn't feel the need to provide narrative.
I've already said the narrative is biased - and yes I acknowledge that. However - the data hasn't been contested by government (the narrative definitely biased though).
This is exactly the point that me and others (J2 in this thread) are raising though. One conversation about a potential link between nationality and crime and you're accusing me of demonising all immigrants. You're better than that - or at least you used to be.
How would you know how I used to be?
You seem to have forgotten how Benters used to be in your defence on him earlier.
Almost like there is an agenda at play here. You've conceded the data is biased yet you've continued to refer to it in subsequent posts since it was pointed out.
I've asked for evidence, that is how I have always been.
SB
[Post edited 11 Mar 21:37]
3
Migrant "crime crisis" on 21:35 - Mar 11 with 1149 views
Migrant "crime crisis" on 21:24 - Mar 11 by NeedhamChris
I haven't said at all that it's THE reason, so have no aim or intention to prove that - I've started a conversation based on an article and suggested a debate around it. Others are seemingly keen to shut that down.
Have the courtesy to answer the question you were asked first - you appear to deny culture/nationality playing any part whatsoever?
People are people. We've all grown up in the society that produced the Kray twins, Harold Shipman, the Yorkshire Ripper etc. etc. yet the vast majority of Britons are mostly law-abiding. Same goes for every other nationality.
Migrant "crime crisis" on 21:24 - Mar 11 by NeedhamChris
I haven't said at all that it's THE reason, so have no aim or intention to prove that - I've started a conversation based on an article and suggested a debate around it. Others are seemingly keen to shut that down.
Have the courtesy to answer the question you were asked first - you appear to deny culture/nationality playing any part whatsoever?
all the polls show that the vast majority of people in the uk think that current immigration levels are too high (3 million net migration in the last 4 years). but there's still a bit of the left - for some reason hugely disproportionately over-represented / vocal on here - for whom being pro-immigration is an absolute article of faith, and for them anything that questions immigration needs to be crushed. that's just how the site is.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
