| Visiting America on 10:49 - Mar 29 with 2421 views | Xatticus |
| Visiting America on 22:46 - Mar 28 by lowhouseblue |
you may not seem them as equal - equally people with opposite views to yours don't see them as equal. you're absolutely certain you're right - they're absolutely certain they're right. you claim there can be no debate, they probably claim the same. if we want a civilised world we need to negotiate this impasse - and the answer isn't bowing down to you or to 'them'. |
I think I understand now. We aren't in a relegation scrap. We are 9 points clear of Wolves for promotion to the Championship. Everyone's been reading the table incorrectly. Who's to say I'm wrong? My perspective is as valid as anyone else's, is it not?
You can use this argument to prop up any malicious ideology. Is fascism a perspective? Is genocide a perspective? Is paedophilia a perspective?
There is an objective truth. The abstraction of logic is the betrayal of logic. Ignorance isn't a perspective and labeling it as such doesn't validate it. Perspectives aren't inherently equal. Attacking institutions that pursue objective truth is a necessary step on the path to autocracy because these institutions are where we 'negotiate this impasse'. |  | |  |
| Visiting America on 11:11 - Mar 29 with 2337 views | lowhouseblue |
| Visiting America on 10:49 - Mar 29 by Xatticus |
I think I understand now. We aren't in a relegation scrap. We are 9 points clear of Wolves for promotion to the Championship. Everyone's been reading the table incorrectly. Who's to say I'm wrong? My perspective is as valid as anyone else's, is it not?
You can use this argument to prop up any malicious ideology. Is fascism a perspective? Is genocide a perspective? Is paedophilia a perspective?
There is an objective truth. The abstraction of logic is the betrayal of logic. Ignorance isn't a perspective and labeling it as such doesn't validate it. Perspectives aren't inherently equal. Attacking institutions that pursue objective truth is a necessary step on the path to autocracy because these institutions are where we 'negotiate this impasse'. |
of course there are objective truths. just far fewer in politics than in other areas like science. of course not all perspectives are inherently equal - it's just that everyone legitimately disagrees about which are more inherently equal than others. in politics we reach conclusions / decisions through discussion and debate. it's the denying the legitimacy of that debate, in effect the whole political process, and seeking to exclude perspectives you disagree with that i object to. along with the lack of self-awareness in not realising that the people who you think are ignorant probably think you're just as ignorant. as for 'institutions that pursue objective truth' - in cultural institutions you need diversity of opinion and debate and challenge to pursue any truth - they can't just be seen as the propaganda wing of one ideology. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Visiting America on 11:14 - Mar 29 with 2324 views | lowhouseblue |
| Visiting America on 10:14 - Mar 29 by DJR |
Your second paragraph could be describing Trump and the MAGA movement  |
you've spotted the inherent symmetry. congrats. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Visiting America on 11:24 - Mar 29 with 2313 views | m14_blue |
| Visiting America on 11:11 - Mar 29 by lowhouseblue |
of course there are objective truths. just far fewer in politics than in other areas like science. of course not all perspectives are inherently equal - it's just that everyone legitimately disagrees about which are more inherently equal than others. in politics we reach conclusions / decisions through discussion and debate. it's the denying the legitimacy of that debate, in effect the whole political process, and seeking to exclude perspectives you disagree with that i object to. along with the lack of self-awareness in not realising that the people who you think are ignorant probably think you're just as ignorant. as for 'institutions that pursue objective truth' - in cultural institutions you need diversity of opinion and debate and challenge to pursue any truth - they can't just be seen as the propaganda wing of one ideology. |
Honestly, I think you're naive about what Trump and his like are doing.
What you're saying may be true in the traditional right vs left, Tory vs Labour, Republican vs Democrat world, and maybe even in Leave vs Remain etc...
But we're now in a post truth world, Trump literally stands in front of the world and openly lies, without any pretence of doing otherwise. Meanwhile, he also has massive control over social media which is gaslighting the population in a way never seen before.
This isn't any longer about different points on a political spectrum, it's about what is objective reality and what isn't. Any attempt to treat this as the usual left v right arguments that have defined politics for generations is playing into their hands.
If one politician says it's raining and another says it's sunny, it should be the media's job to look out of the window and tell everyone the truth, not present both as equally valid opinions.
Same goes for museums in my eyes. | | | |
| Visiting America on 11:41 - Mar 29 with 2286 views | Herbivore |
| Visiting America on 11:24 - Mar 29 by m14_blue |
Honestly, I think you're naive about what Trump and his like are doing.
What you're saying may be true in the traditional right vs left, Tory vs Labour, Republican vs Democrat world, and maybe even in Leave vs Remain etc...
But we're now in a post truth world, Trump literally stands in front of the world and openly lies, without any pretence of doing otherwise. Meanwhile, he also has massive control over social media which is gaslighting the population in a way never seen before.
This isn't any longer about different points on a political spectrum, it's about what is objective reality and what isn't. Any attempt to treat this as the usual left v right arguments that have defined politics for generations is playing into their hands.
If one politician says it's raining and another says it's sunny, it should be the media's job to look out of the window and tell everyone the truth, not present both as equally valid opinions.
Same goes for museums in my eyes. |
Apparently Trump doesn't lie, he just says things you don't agree with.
I don't think lowie is naive per se, their views legitimise extreme and potentially dangerous political positions but that's deliberate rather than coming from a place of naivety. Perhaps there is some naivety in thinking that their approach is a good thing rather than contributing significantly to the rise of extreme politics. |  |
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| Visiting America on 12:21 - Mar 29 with 2198 views | Churchman |
| Visiting America on 11:41 - Mar 29 by Herbivore |
Apparently Trump doesn't lie, he just says things you don't agree with.
I don't think lowie is naive per se, their views legitimise extreme and potentially dangerous political positions but that's deliberate rather than coming from a place of naivety. Perhaps there is some naivety in thinking that their approach is a good thing rather than contributing significantly to the rise of extreme politics. |
Trump doesn’t lie? There’s more chance of Nelson getting his eye back than that thing telling the truth. The only truth he recognises is the bonkers thoughts going through his head while watching reruns of Deputy Dawg.
His henchmen are either lickspittles or ambitious a’holes who see only themselves and view everything as something they can extort or use. People who are utterly bemused and enraged if anyone has the temerity to say no to them. Bullies and sycophants.
Back to the point, I’ve absolutely no problem with looking at things from all points of view and listening to what people have to say. But if you take Trump’s crowd, there are behaviours, lies and distortions that are completely unacceptable and should not be tolerated. They are not a matter of opinion in many cases, but fact.
Beyond that, at a trivial level, what right does greasy Vance have to abuse Denmark when standing in Greenland? Or to abuse a visiting leader or anyone else publicly? What right does he or Trump or anyone else have to peddle lies? What right do they have to threaten Canada or anywhere else? I won’t list them again but there are plenty of examples.
When all is said and done, Putin is getting ever more wild with his claims, actions and threats. Israel is trying to wipe out Gaza and the people in it. Trump has emboldened and backed both to the hilt with his support and because of that people are dying. They will continue to die in ever increasing numbers unless it is stopped.
Economically, Trump is creating chaos. That’s not opinion. It’s happening and when he lands his tariff illiteracy and idiocy early April on the U.K. EU and elsewhere people will get poorer.
Thanks to his policy of foreign aid etc, people will unnecessarily die. I know he doesn’t care about people in places like Africa. They’re nothing because the land they try and live in has nothing in it to steal. That’s Trump’s crowd all over.
That’s an opinion, but given Trumps actions to date if Lowhouse or anyone else can give me evidence to the contrary, I’ll be very interested to see it.
What they are doing with museums? I believe they’ll turn them into places they think they should be, which means they become vehicles for Trump propaganda the same as art galleries and museums became Nazi propaganda vehicles in the 1930s. Just an opinion.
It feels like chaos is increasing by the day and I fear for the future. Not mine, but young people and future generations. It’s the most dangerous time I’ve ever known. [Post edited 29 Mar 12:23]
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| Visiting America on 13:14 - Mar 29 with 2108 views | lowhouseblue |
| Visiting America on 11:41 - Mar 29 by Herbivore |
Apparently Trump doesn't lie, he just says things you don't agree with.
I don't think lowie is naive per se, their views legitimise extreme and potentially dangerous political positions but that's deliberate rather than coming from a place of naivety. Perhaps there is some naivety in thinking that their approach is a good thing rather than contributing significantly to the rise of extreme politics. |
where have i said that trump doesn't lie?? you know i haven't. what i have said is that you need to understand why america is so divided , why trump has been re-elected, and why he has the support that he has. it isn't because those who support him are stupid, evil, dishonest or liars. people who can only explain american, or uk, division in those terms because they think their own views are the only possible legitimate or valid are a large part of why we in the us and the uk and so divided and why politics has become divisive. for example, can you explain why us cultural institutions are subject to such mistrust from a large swathe of americans and do so without just calling them think and backwards?
if you really don't understand what i'm arguing it would still be best not just to make stuff up. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Visiting America on 15:51 - Mar 29 with 2011 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Visiting America on 13:14 - Mar 29 by lowhouseblue |
where have i said that trump doesn't lie?? you know i haven't. what i have said is that you need to understand why america is so divided , why trump has been re-elected, and why he has the support that he has. it isn't because those who support him are stupid, evil, dishonest or liars. people who can only explain american, or uk, division in those terms because they think their own views are the only possible legitimate or valid are a large part of why we in the us and the uk and so divided and why politics has become divisive. for example, can you explain why us cultural institutions are subject to such mistrust from a large swathe of americans and do so without just calling them think and backwards?
if you really don't understand what i'm arguing it would still be best not just to make stuff up. |
Well being over here I’d say there’s loads of reasons Trump comfortably won the EC. Mainly the absolute joke and lack of direction from Democrats during the Biden era, not withstanding the lies about Biden’s ability to run again and the extremely late change of Candidate. Harris was literally campaigning against herself for the brief 3 months leading up to the election. Kind of hard to say how much better it would be when you actual VP of the current administration.
If the Dems went down a more populist agenda rather than trying to fight on cultural wars (which is extremely unpopular with moderate Americans and played into the rights hands) they’d have been a lot more successful.
Ironically a lot of Bernie guys voted for Trump in this cycle. There is a bigger link than you think. Working class jobs for Americans, distrust of elites and globalists, economic struggles etc. Whether it works out for them is another matter but that will win votes. The unionists are even more in love with him at the moment with these Tariffs.
Hope that helps. [Post edited 29 Mar 15:52]
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| Visiting America on 16:07 - Mar 29 with 1967 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Visiting America on 11:41 - Mar 29 by Herbivore |
Apparently Trump doesn't lie, he just says things you don't agree with.
I don't think lowie is naive per se, their views legitimise extreme and potentially dangerous political positions but that's deliberate rather than coming from a place of naivety. Perhaps there is some naivety in thinking that their approach is a good thing rather than contributing significantly to the rise of extreme politics. |
Lowie isn’t naive at all. They know exactly what they’re justifying. |  |
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| Visiting America on 16:19 - Mar 29 with 1940 views | Herbivore |
| Visiting America on 13:14 - Mar 29 by lowhouseblue |
where have i said that trump doesn't lie?? you know i haven't. what i have said is that you need to understand why america is so divided , why trump has been re-elected, and why he has the support that he has. it isn't because those who support him are stupid, evil, dishonest or liars. people who can only explain american, or uk, division in those terms because they think their own views are the only possible legitimate or valid are a large part of why we in the us and the uk and so divided and why politics has become divisive. for example, can you explain why us cultural institutions are subject to such mistrust from a large swathe of americans and do so without just calling them think and backwards?
if you really don't understand what i'm arguing it would still be best not just to make stuff up. |
I understand what you're arguing. That's why I point out how pernicious it is. | |
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| Visiting America on 16:32 - Mar 29 with 1918 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Visiting America on 15:51 - Mar 29 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Well being over here I’d say there’s loads of reasons Trump comfortably won the EC. Mainly the absolute joke and lack of direction from Democrats during the Biden era, not withstanding the lies about Biden’s ability to run again and the extremely late change of Candidate. Harris was literally campaigning against herself for the brief 3 months leading up to the election. Kind of hard to say how much better it would be when you actual VP of the current administration.
If the Dems went down a more populist agenda rather than trying to fight on cultural wars (which is extremely unpopular with moderate Americans and played into the rights hands) they’d have been a lot more successful.
Ironically a lot of Bernie guys voted for Trump in this cycle. There is a bigger link than you think. Working class jobs for Americans, distrust of elites and globalists, economic struggles etc. Whether it works out for them is another matter but that will win votes. The unionists are even more in love with him at the moment with these Tariffs.
Hope that helps. [Post edited 29 Mar 15:52]
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What a depressing conclusion. Populism is never going to be the answer (as the thousands of state funded workers who’ve been sacked are now finding out). The millions who relied on them will be finding out next.
I don’t think it possible to out-populist the populists. And we shouldn’t want supposed public servants to try. It’s not a skill set that the opposition on either side of the pond seem to have anyway. | |
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| Visiting America on 16:49 - Mar 29 with 1885 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Visiting America on 16:32 - Mar 29 by Swansea_Blue |
What a depressing conclusion. Populism is never going to be the answer (as the thousands of state funded workers who’ve been sacked are now finding out). The millions who relied on them will be finding out next.
I don’t think it possible to out-populist the populists. And we shouldn’t want supposed public servants to try. It’s not a skill set that the opposition on either side of the pond seem to have anyway. |
Thus is maybe but America is a big country, do you think those in the flyover states living month to month felt in tune with the Taylor Swift like endorsements and cared about all the tit for tat culture war stuff?
I often wonder if Bernie was the candidate in 2016 if we’d have ever seen a president Trump. Possibly but who knows. | | | |
| Visiting America on 18:05 - Mar 29 with 1787 views | lowhouseblue |
| Visiting America on 15:51 - Mar 29 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Well being over here I’d say there’s loads of reasons Trump comfortably won the EC. Mainly the absolute joke and lack of direction from Democrats during the Biden era, not withstanding the lies about Biden’s ability to run again and the extremely late change of Candidate. Harris was literally campaigning against herself for the brief 3 months leading up to the election. Kind of hard to say how much better it would be when you actual VP of the current administration.
If the Dems went down a more populist agenda rather than trying to fight on cultural wars (which is extremely unpopular with moderate Americans and played into the rights hands) they’d have been a lot more successful.
Ironically a lot of Bernie guys voted for Trump in this cycle. There is a bigger link than you think. Working class jobs for Americans, distrust of elites and globalists, economic struggles etc. Whether it works out for them is another matter but that will win votes. The unionists are even more in love with him at the moment with these Tariffs.
Hope that helps. [Post edited 29 Mar 15:52]
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i think it was a big mistake nominating biden - i don't doubt he was competent to be president in 2024, but 2028?? that failed the voter's sniff test. the rest i agree with. that the dems having fought on the culture war since obama is of course a large part of the reason that the public has lost confidence in the sorts of cultural institutions which the thread is about. distrust of elites in the us alas currently equals distrust of the dems and the people running cultural institutions. if you win control of such institutions and push an ideology which is alien to lots of voters then at eventually some point those voters turn around and have their revenge. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Visiting America on 19:23 - Mar 29 with 1726 views | Herbivore |
| Visiting America on 18:05 - Mar 29 by lowhouseblue |
i think it was a big mistake nominating biden - i don't doubt he was competent to be president in 2024, but 2028?? that failed the voter's sniff test. the rest i agree with. that the dems having fought on the culture war since obama is of course a large part of the reason that the public has lost confidence in the sorts of cultural institutions which the thread is about. distrust of elites in the us alas currently equals distrust of the dems and the people running cultural institutions. if you win control of such institutions and push an ideology which is alien to lots of voters then at eventually some point those voters turn around and have their revenge. |
Yeah mate, it's definitely the "culture wars" that are definitely perpetuated by "the left" that are definitely the problem here.
This post has been edited by an administrator | |
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| Visiting America on 19:43 - Mar 29 with 1689 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Visiting America on 16:49 - Mar 29 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Thus is maybe but America is a big country, do you think those in the flyover states living month to month felt in tune with the Taylor Swift like endorsements and cared about all the tit for tat culture war stuff?
I often wonder if Bernie was the candidate in 2016 if we’d have ever seen a president Trump. Possibly but who knows. |
Well no, of course not. They’re obviously much more likely to be in tune with the convicted felon with at least 10 skyscrapers built in his name who’s surrounded himself with the 3 richest men in the world. Man of the people innit.
Trump and Co. are the very embodiment of the system that’s failed people. I don’t understand why people can’t see that. Although maybe I’m not being fair and a lot did, as apparently turnout in the presidential election wasn’t great. So this is what we’re left with when there are so many disenfranchised voters. | |
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| Visiting America on 19:48 - Mar 29 with 1668 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Visiting America on 19:23 - Mar 29 by Herbivore |
Yeah mate, it's definitely the "culture wars" that are definitely perpetuated by "the left" that are definitely the problem here.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Well done for preserving, but it’s like battling the worst commentators on the Spectator and Telegraph. I can recommend an ignore. | |
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| Visiting America on 19:51 - Mar 29 with 1646 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Visiting America on 19:43 - Mar 29 by Swansea_Blue |
Well no, of course not. They’re obviously much more likely to be in tune with the convicted felon with at least 10 skyscrapers built in his name who’s surrounded himself with the 3 richest men in the world. Man of the people innit.
Trump and Co. are the very embodiment of the system that’s failed people. I don’t understand why people can’t see that. Although maybe I’m not being fair and a lot did, as apparently turnout in the presidential election wasn’t great. So this is what we’re left with when there are so many disenfranchised voters. |
Apparently what? It was literally the second-highest turnout percentage in the last 100 years, I do wonder where all the US experts get their information from on here sometimes. | | | |
| Visiting America on 20:04 - Mar 29 with 1612 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Visiting America on 19:51 - Mar 29 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Apparently what? It was literally the second-highest turnout percentage in the last 100 years, I do wonder where all the US experts get their information from on here sometimes. |
I don’t claim to be an expert. 63% wasn’t it? That’s not great. Not bad, but not great. Maybe it’s good over there, but that probably tells of a larger problem. | |
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| Visiting America on 20:12 - Mar 29 with 1584 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Visiting America on 20:04 - Mar 29 by Swansea_Blue |
I don’t claim to be an expert. 63% wasn’t it? That’s not great. Not bad, but not great. Maybe it’s good over there, but that probably tells of a larger problem. |
Higher than the last UK GE and when you consider the vast geography of the country that can come with some complications, | | | |
| Visiting America on 20:23 - Mar 29 with 1556 views | leitrimblue |
| Visiting America on 18:05 - Mar 29 by lowhouseblue |
i think it was a big mistake nominating biden - i don't doubt he was competent to be president in 2024, but 2028?? that failed the voter's sniff test. the rest i agree with. that the dems having fought on the culture war since obama is of course a large part of the reason that the public has lost confidence in the sorts of cultural institutions which the thread is about. distrust of elites in the us alas currently equals distrust of the dems and the people running cultural institutions. if you win control of such institutions and push an ideology which is alien to lots of voters then at eventually some point those voters turn around and have their revenge. |
Apart from the historical truth, what ideology are these museums pushing that is alien to lots of voters? |  | | |
| Visiting America on 20:35 - Mar 29 with 1508 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Visiting America on 11:41 - Mar 29 by Herbivore |
Apparently Trump doesn't lie, he just says things you don't agree with.
I don't think lowie is naive per se, their views legitimise extreme and potentially dangerous political positions but that's deliberate rather than coming from a place of naivety. Perhaps there is some naivety in thinking that their approach is a good thing rather than contributing significantly to the rise of extreme politics. |
It's his usual approach. A concrete analysis without context or recognition of the current extremes.
Appeasment really. |  | | |
| Visiting America on 20:46 - Mar 29 with 1492 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Visiting America on 20:12 - Mar 29 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Higher than the last UK GE and when you consider the vast geography of the country that can come with some complications, |
Yeah, the last GE was a low turnout relatively too. It’s a worrying trend here that’s seen turnouts drop from over 80% to to 60s over the last 30 years or so. We need change, but we won’t get it if every party saints on the same economic ticket and if more and more people stay at home. | |
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| Visiting America on 20:52 - Mar 29 with 1484 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Visiting America on 23:09 - Mar 28 by StokieBlue |
"jeez you need to go out, and to borrow a david cameron sound bite, hug a centrist."
If that's not being condescending I'm looking forward to you actually being condescending. It should be quite the stuff to behold.
Believing one's views are supported by evidence isn't the same as them being supported by evidence.
But you know all this, you're just trying to wind people up. To claim that people like Trump (who was the initial focal point of this discussion) isn't dishonest is clearly not supported by evidence yet here you are claiming that their evidence needs to be interpreted.
You're in danger of becoming an apologist for some fairly horrible opinions of you continue with this trajectory.
SB |
Not in danger of, already there.
Can you imagine him in 1939?
"Yes you condem Hitler but the views of his supporters are equally valid."
Dangerous bs | | | |
| Visiting America on 21:10 - Mar 29 with 1436 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Visiting America on 23:09 - Mar 28 by StokieBlue |
"jeez you need to go out, and to borrow a david cameron sound bite, hug a centrist."
If that's not being condescending I'm looking forward to you actually being condescending. It should be quite the stuff to behold.
Believing one's views are supported by evidence isn't the same as them being supported by evidence.
But you know all this, you're just trying to wind people up. To claim that people like Trump (who was the initial focal point of this discussion) isn't dishonest is clearly not supported by evidence yet here you are claiming that their evidence needs to be interpreted.
You're in danger of becoming an apologist for some fairly horrible opinions of you continue with this trajectory.
SB |
No “in danger” about it. They’ve been there for a while. | |
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| Visiting America on 21:16 - Mar 29 with 1405 views | iamatractorboy |
Blaming Democrats for Culture Wars is absolutely hilarious. | | | |
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