| Sels 20:12 - Mar 29 with 3493 views | tonybied |
What a signing he has been for Forest. They got him for less than we paid for Muric. He has looked class pretty much every time I've seen him play this season. |  | | |  |
| Sels on 20:16 - Mar 29 with 2898 views | bournemouthblue |
Muric was a mistake, I don't know McKenna was thinking
We rolled the dice on a wild flair keeper rather than going for a safe option
I can see him ending up at a random Turkish club playing Europa stuff and suddenly looking quite competent |  |
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| Sels on 21:25 - Mar 29 with 2697 views | Illinoisblue |
| Sels on 20:16 - Mar 29 by bournemouthblue |
Muric was a mistake, I don't know McKenna was thinking
We rolled the dice on a wild flair keeper rather than going for a safe option
I can see him ending up at a random Turkish club playing Europa stuff and suddenly looking quite competent |
Be interesting to see what becomes of our “long term agreement” with the analytic gurus of goalkeeper.com. I’d pay not inconsiderable sums of money to sit in on a meeting with Ashton, KM, and the goalkeeper data boys at the end of season debrief. Agenda item #1: “Mark Ashton asking ‘what the fk, lads? What the actual fk?’. Meeting ends. |  |
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| Sels on 21:46 - Mar 29 with 2602 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Sels on 21:25 - Mar 29 by Illinoisblue |
Be interesting to see what becomes of our “long term agreement” with the analytic gurus of goalkeeper.com. I’d pay not inconsiderable sums of money to sit in on a meeting with Ashton, KM, and the goalkeeper data boys at the end of season debrief. Agenda item #1: “Mark Ashton asking ‘what the fk, lads? What the actual fk?’. Meeting ends. |
Data obviously has a place in sports but at times it completely ignores context, sometimes the eye test can carry a lot of weight. |  | | |
| Sels on 22:08 - Mar 29 with 2532 views | SaffronWaldenBlues |
| Sels on 21:46 - Mar 29 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Data obviously has a place in sports but at times it completely ignores context, sometimes the eye test can carry a lot of weight. |
He was bang average for Burnley, a side that sunk like a stone, so that should have been something they considered but we signed O’Shea who was much the same, so maybe not. |  |
| An East Anglian Town overtaken by Londoners |
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| Sels on 22:15 - Mar 29 with 2514 views | JakeITFC |
They went through a fair few duds first though tbf - Sels was their Palmer January deadline day equivalent. |  | | |
| Sels on 22:15 - Mar 29 with 2512 views | sjg |
| Sels on 21:25 - Mar 29 by Illinoisblue |
Be interesting to see what becomes of our “long term agreement” with the analytic gurus of goalkeeper.com. I’d pay not inconsiderable sums of money to sit in on a meeting with Ashton, KM, and the goalkeeper data boys at the end of season debrief. Agenda item #1: “Mark Ashton asking ‘what the fk, lads? What the actual fk?’. Meeting ends. |
I’m sure 99% of the stats say he is a great keeper. Unfortunately the 1% is errors leading to goals |  | | |
| Sels on 22:16 - Mar 29 with 2513 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Sels on 22:08 - Mar 29 by SaffronWaldenBlues |
He was bang average for Burnley, a side that sunk like a stone, so that should have been something they considered but we signed O’Shea who was much the same, so maybe not. |
Didn’t he play at the end of season for Burnley for like 8 games after having some major gaffs earlier in the year? I think the shots were raining down on him, so he probably had some decent stats in terms of shot stopping. I remember Joe on Blue Monday (who I like a lot) saying last summer how good he might be in terms of the data etc.
Let’s face it, turned out to be a disaster. He can collect crosses if they’re coming down on a parachute and was a decent shot stopper (at times) but his decision making was horrendous. I was never comfortable about him from the jump, distribution poor as well. We got it badly wrong and it actually did massively affect the first half of our season and points tally by Christmas.
Brentford and Bournemouth are the ones that really stood out for me. | | | |
| Sels on 22:26 - Mar 29 with 2453 views | Churchman |
What exactly is your point? We got Delap for a fraction of the price Chelsea paid for Nkunku and a third of the price Spurs paid for Archie Gray who was taken to the cleaners by LD.
Chelsea also signed Dewsbury-Divearound and he’s stunk the place out like a louse in a Russians beard. And thats before Leicester’s Skipp is mentioned who at well over £20m they think is worse than useless.
Players are not commodities. They are people, some of who step up, others don’t, some play for garbage teams, others like Sels don’t. It’s how it is.
Is your point that Sels is a good acquisition or that ITFC, Ashton and McKenna failed to sign him and instead hosed money up the wall signing Muric?
It must be otherwise you’d not even be mentioning our goalkeeper. [Post edited 30 Mar 10:24]
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| Sels on 22:36 - Mar 29 with 2422 views | MattinLondon |
If we had brought Sels, we would probably be still in much the same situation that we find ourselves in. Muric has made mistakes, but so has all of our back line who consistently leave him exposed.
In most games this season, one of our players have made an error leading to the opposition scoring. |  | | |
| Sels on 22:36 - Mar 29 with 2418 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Sels on 22:26 - Mar 29 by Churchman |
What exactly is your point? We got Delap for a fraction of the price Chelsea paid for Nkunku and a third of the price Spurs paid for Archie Gray who was taken to the cleaners by LD.
Chelsea also signed Dewsbury-Divearound and he’s stunk the place out like a louse in a Russians beard. And thats before Leicester’s Skipp is mentioned who at well over £20m they think is worse than useless.
Players are not commodities. They are people, some of who step up, others don’t, some play for garbage teams, others like Sels don’t. It’s how it is.
Is your point that Sels is a good acquisition or that ITFC, Ashton and McKenna failed to sign him and instead hosed money up the wall signing Muric?
It must be otherwise you’d not even be mentioning our goalkeeper. [Post edited 30 Mar 10:24]
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Maybe he’s saying they’ve got a good international recruitment network and buying players that have top flight European experience is a solid strategy and there’s good value there. However, I wouldn’t want to talk for him! | | | |
| Sels on 23:02 - Mar 29 with 2270 views | Churchman |
| Sels on 22:36 - Mar 29 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Maybe he’s saying they’ve got a good international recruitment network and buying players that have top flight European experience is a solid strategy and there’s good value there. However, I wouldn’t want to talk for him! |
We know that. I’ve seen these teams and it’s blindingly obvious, but why bring Muric Into it?
It wasn’t so long ago that we had no scouting network anywhere let alone abroad. Of course we need to explore that market. But while you might be able to tart up a crumbling football ground over a short period of time, I’ve no idea how you build a worldwide scouting network that delivers sufficient good quality PL players, unless you’ve been in the division a few years, can spot them and attract them.
Rome was never going to be built in a day, however much I hoped it would. | | | |
| Sels on 23:45 - Mar 29 with 2175 views | tonybied |
| Sels on 23:02 - Mar 29 by Churchman |
We know that. I’ve seen these teams and it’s blindingly obvious, but why bring Muric Into it?
It wasn’t so long ago that we had no scouting network anywhere let alone abroad. Of course we need to explore that market. But while you might be able to tart up a crumbling football ground over a short period of time, I’ve no idea how you build a worldwide scouting network that delivers sufficient good quality PL players, unless you’ve been in the division a few years, can spot them and attract them.
Rome was never going to be built in a day, however much I hoped it would. |
I'm no Muric hater, go back through my posts and you'll find I was extremely patient with him and I have also reminded other posters that there was a similar amount of distrust for Hladky on here the season he signed for us.
Am I not allowed to use Muric as a comparison? We paid £9M for him, allegedly, and Forest paid £6.5M for Sels. Sels has been pretty much the best keeper in the PL this season, from my understanding. I don't think anyone can claim Muric has been anywhere near as good or effective a signing as Sels has been. It's just a bit of jealousy from me if I'm honest!
I still believe that Muric can make it here as our No. 1 but anyone who says he hasn't been anything but a bit of a disaster (so far) is kidding themselves. It's okay to be critical of our own players, as long as it's done with respect and not abuse. Its also okay to admit that other teams players are better than ours, or that other teams have been better at taking their opportunities too. In fact, it's how we learn and improve as a club. | | | |
| Sels on 02:23 - Mar 30 with 2080 views | JakeITFC |
| Sels on 23:45 - Mar 29 by tonybied |
I'm no Muric hater, go back through my posts and you'll find I was extremely patient with him and I have also reminded other posters that there was a similar amount of distrust for Hladky on here the season he signed for us.
Am I not allowed to use Muric as a comparison? We paid £9M for him, allegedly, and Forest paid £6.5M for Sels. Sels has been pretty much the best keeper in the PL this season, from my understanding. I don't think anyone can claim Muric has been anywhere near as good or effective a signing as Sels has been. It's just a bit of jealousy from me if I'm honest!
I still believe that Muric can make it here as our No. 1 but anyone who says he hasn't been anything but a bit of a disaster (so far) is kidding themselves. It's okay to be critical of our own players, as long as it's done with respect and not abuse. Its also okay to admit that other teams players are better than ours, or that other teams have been better at taking their opportunities too. In fact, it's how we learn and improve as a club. |
Yeah but the point is fairly moot in that Sels wasn’t some piece of master planning, he was the best goalkeeper available to solve a more complicated and expensive mess than we had. | | | |
| Sels on 08:22 - Mar 30 with 1936 views | bsw72 |
He also got hounded out of Newcastle in his mid 20s by the fans after a number of errors in a handful of games. He cost Newcastle £6.5m back in 2016, quite a considerable sum.
Draw your own conclusion, but mine is that Muric has been unfairly targeted by fans who do not understand the chasm of ability, skill, concentration and fitness between what is required in the Champ vs the PL.
Therefore the obvious errors from a keeper become a more convenient excuse for people who can’t accept that the failings are across the team as a whole rather than individuals.
I got very bored with the whole Muric, Walton and now Palmer debate, but I still believe Muric is our best keeper. |  | | |
| Sels on 09:01 - Mar 30 with 1840 views | tonybied |
| Sels on 08:22 - Mar 30 by bsw72 |
He also got hounded out of Newcastle in his mid 20s by the fans after a number of errors in a handful of games. He cost Newcastle £6.5m back in 2016, quite a considerable sum.
Draw your own conclusion, but mine is that Muric has been unfairly targeted by fans who do not understand the chasm of ability, skill, concentration and fitness between what is required in the Champ vs the PL.
Therefore the obvious errors from a keeper become a more convenient excuse for people who can’t accept that the failings are across the team as a whole rather than individuals.
I got very bored with the whole Muric, Walton and now Palmer debate, but I still believe Muric is our best keeper. |
I think your last point is correct, Muric issue is clearly a confidence thing. If he can get on top of that he will clearly be a top top keeper. His save ratio and his ability to claim high balls into the box is excellent. Taking a back seat, like Hladky did, might well do him the world of good. Some people should remember players like Hladky, Donacien or Taricco when deriding players for not having the best of it when first arriving at the club. There are many different things that can have an effect on a player after moving to a different part of the country, or even world to play for a new club and some just don't seem to consider that players are just normal people like you and I.
My OP was not meant as a dig at Muric, more a compliment as to the signing of Sels. I also understand that there's not an awful lot of context when just comparing players fees, but I don't think there's much dispute that Sels is anything but a bargain for Forest. | | | |
| Sels on 09:18 - Mar 30 with 1803 views | Exiled2Surrey |
| Sels on 09:01 - Mar 30 by tonybied |
I think your last point is correct, Muric issue is clearly a confidence thing. If he can get on top of that he will clearly be a top top keeper. His save ratio and his ability to claim high balls into the box is excellent. Taking a back seat, like Hladky did, might well do him the world of good. Some people should remember players like Hladky, Donacien or Taricco when deriding players for not having the best of it when first arriving at the club. There are many different things that can have an effect on a player after moving to a different part of the country, or even world to play for a new club and some just don't seem to consider that players are just normal people like you and I.
My OP was not meant as a dig at Muric, more a compliment as to the signing of Sels. I also understand that there's not an awful lot of context when just comparing players fees, but I don't think there's much dispute that Sels is anything but a bargain for Forest. |
Not just confidence - communication - but broadly I agree with you | | | |
| Sels on 09:19 - Mar 30 with 1801 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Sels on 23:45 - Mar 29 by tonybied |
I'm no Muric hater, go back through my posts and you'll find I was extremely patient with him and I have also reminded other posters that there was a similar amount of distrust for Hladky on here the season he signed for us.
Am I not allowed to use Muric as a comparison? We paid £9M for him, allegedly, and Forest paid £6.5M for Sels. Sels has been pretty much the best keeper in the PL this season, from my understanding. I don't think anyone can claim Muric has been anywhere near as good or effective a signing as Sels has been. It's just a bit of jealousy from me if I'm honest!
I still believe that Muric can make it here as our No. 1 but anyone who says he hasn't been anything but a bit of a disaster (so far) is kidding themselves. It's okay to be critical of our own players, as long as it's done with respect and not abuse. Its also okay to admit that other teams players are better than ours, or that other teams have been better at taking their opportunities too. In fact, it's how we learn and improve as a club. |
It always seems like such simplistic cherry picking. I think that's the problem. It's what people have done this season, many without admitting, in fairness you do, the wider picture, and the reality of where we find ourselves.
Anyone can pick a player from each position who would seemingly have been a bargain and say we've messed up, but as others always try to stress there are many many more who fell short for big fees too, let alone the specifics of finding and attracting players and our scouting network and our overall place as a club.
Most aren't saying that people can't criticise players, more that cutting and pasting a magical hindsight based player in after the event helps no one. |  | | |
| Sels on 09:44 - Mar 30 with 1724 views | Churchman |
| Sels on 08:22 - Mar 30 by bsw72 |
He also got hounded out of Newcastle in his mid 20s by the fans after a number of errors in a handful of games. He cost Newcastle £6.5m back in 2016, quite a considerable sum.
Draw your own conclusion, but mine is that Muric has been unfairly targeted by fans who do not understand the chasm of ability, skill, concentration and fitness between what is required in the Champ vs the PL.
Therefore the obvious errors from a keeper become a more convenient excuse for people who can’t accept that the failings are across the team as a whole rather than individuals.
I got very bored with the whole Muric, Walton and now Palmer debate, but I still believe Muric is our best keeper. |
I agree bsw. The failings are very much across the team. When you look at how the game is played now it’s easy to see why. It’s not just the strength and ability of PL players, it’s how well they’re organised and how few unforced errors they make.
Against Forest, we gave the ball away cheaply three times in a couple of minutes. Any momentum went out of the window and the game was over ten minutes later. It was as simple as that. If you are a fraction of a yard short or even try and take a second touch, the opposition player is on you and gone. It’s how it is and has genuinely surprised me. It’s much tougher out there than it looks on tv.
I think overall our keepers are much of a muchness. All are better than Hladky in my opinion and I think they’re alright. It’s other parts of the team that bother me more. | | | |
| Sels on 09:44 - Mar 30 with 1725 views | tonybied |
| Sels on 09:19 - Mar 30 by Axeldalai_lama |
It always seems like such simplistic cherry picking. I think that's the problem. It's what people have done this season, many without admitting, in fairness you do, the wider picture, and the reality of where we find ourselves.
Anyone can pick a player from each position who would seemingly have been a bargain and say we've messed up, but as others always try to stress there are many many more who fell short for big fees too, let alone the specifics of finding and attracting players and our scouting network and our overall place as a club.
Most aren't saying that people can't criticise players, more that cutting and pasting a magical hindsight based player in after the event helps no one. |
I agree with you for a large part of what you've saying and have admitted as much in my following posts. My OP was meant less of a slight against Muric/Town and more of me trying (not so eloquently) to give praise to Forests business.
My post was just a quick one, after watching the game last night, and before disappearing for a while to watch a film with the missus. Perhaps it's my own fault for not taking ba bit more time to think of my post, but my, my, this board is tetchy and rather divisive at the moment. I get that we're in a hole and it's going to take some getting out of but picking at each others words to the nth degree is not really going to help anyone. My post wasn't massively offensive, was it? It definitely wasn't meant to be, at least! | | | |
| Sels on 09:55 - Mar 30 with 1702 views | bsw72 |
| Sels on 09:44 - Mar 30 by Churchman |
I agree bsw. The failings are very much across the team. When you look at how the game is played now it’s easy to see why. It’s not just the strength and ability of PL players, it’s how well they’re organised and how few unforced errors they make.
Against Forest, we gave the ball away cheaply three times in a couple of minutes. Any momentum went out of the window and the game was over ten minutes later. It was as simple as that. If you are a fraction of a yard short or even try and take a second touch, the opposition player is on you and gone. It’s how it is and has genuinely surprised me. It’s much tougher out there than it looks on tv.
I think overall our keepers are much of a muchness. All are better than Hladky in my opinion and I think they’re alright. It’s other parts of the team that bother me more. |
100%. The simple indicator is that our goals conceded and pts per game have not improved with Walton or Palmer, in fact results have got worse, with the only consistent team change being the keeper.
Suggests the problem lies elsewhere and that the core things which Muric did well but were taken for granted by the fans were reducing opposition chances far more than was understood by fans, such as claiming crosses, shot stopping etc.
I’m a big fan of Palmer and Muric, less so Walton as I think he is not good enough at PL level. I’d rather Walton moves on and we keep the other 3. [Post edited 30 Mar 9:56]
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| Sels on 10:31 - Mar 30 with 1542 views | Churchman |
| Sels on 09:55 - Mar 30 by bsw72 |
100%. The simple indicator is that our goals conceded and pts per game have not improved with Walton or Palmer, in fact results have got worse, with the only consistent team change being the keeper.
Suggests the problem lies elsewhere and that the core things which Muric did well but were taken for granted by the fans were reducing opposition chances far more than was understood by fans, such as claiming crosses, shot stopping etc.
I’m a big fan of Palmer and Muric, less so Walton as I think he is not good enough at PL level. I’d rather Walton moves on and we keep the other 3. [Post edited 30 Mar 9:56]
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Palmer, yes. Muric and Walton? Walton really hasn’t played much in the last two seasons and on balance it’d be him I’d let go.
With regards to results, given how on most days we’ve collapsed routinely after 20 mins to our 9-1 formation, the keeper has looked like a poor s0d at the wrong end of the coconut shy. | | | |
| Sels on 10:33 - Mar 30 with 1514 views | sjg |
| Sels on 10:31 - Mar 30 by Churchman |
Palmer, yes. Muric and Walton? Walton really hasn’t played much in the last two seasons and on balance it’d be him I’d let go.
With regards to results, given how on most days we’ve collapsed routinely after 20 mins to our 9-1 formation, the keeper has looked like a poor s0d at the wrong end of the coconut shy. |
I’d imagine it depends more on selling value and willingness to be second choice. Do think Walton deserves a go at being a Championship club’s number 1
Wish we’d signed Cooper instead of Muric | | | |
| Sels on 10:41 - Mar 30 with 1487 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Sels on 09:44 - Mar 30 by tonybied |
I agree with you for a large part of what you've saying and have admitted as much in my following posts. My OP was meant less of a slight against Muric/Town and more of me trying (not so eloquently) to give praise to Forests business.
My post was just a quick one, after watching the game last night, and before disappearing for a while to watch a film with the missus. Perhaps it's my own fault for not taking ba bit more time to think of my post, but my, my, this board is tetchy and rather divisive at the moment. I get that we're in a hole and it's going to take some getting out of but picking at each others words to the nth degree is not really going to help anyone. My post wasn't massively offensive, was it? It definitely wasn't meant to be, at least! |
No, your post wasn't offensive at all. I don't think people are being especially tetchy either, though I admit it might seem that way sometimes. Not my intention certainly.
I think many, including me, are at pains to get the narrative 'right', because it has the potential to turn into a quite ridiculous toxic one along the lines of us failing and making huge mistakes and getting it all wrong, and wasting money, alongside football manager style shoulda got him him and him, it's simple. Rather than giving it a go with odds and infrastructure and circumstances stacked against us.
I stress this isn't you and clearly wasn't your intent, and obviously everyone is entitled to their view of the world and the season. I just feel there are a certain group on here who are not just like most of us a little down at a far from great season, but want to turn it into a simplistic failing of the club that shouldn't have happened and could have seemingly been straightforward to avoid. | | | |
| Sels on 10:49 - Mar 30 with 1463 views | Churchman |
| Sels on 10:33 - Mar 30 by sjg |
I’d imagine it depends more on selling value and willingness to be second choice. Do think Walton deserves a go at being a Championship club’s number 1
Wish we’d signed Cooper instead of Muric |
We could have signed the best goalie the world has ever seen and it’d have made no difference whatsoever in my view. | | | |
| Sels on 11:34 - Mar 30 with 1415 views | sjg |
| Sels on 10:49 - Mar 30 by Churchman |
We could have signed the best goalie the world has ever seen and it’d have made no difference whatsoever in my view. |
Well it would have made some difference because next year we’d have the best keeper in the Championship | | | |
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