| Incels 03:30 - Apr 1 with 12188 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
Serious post.
I see the rise of Tate and Peterson and the impact they are having on young men and what masculinity looks like and it scares me, this is before I even watch adolescence.
One of the things that I'm conscious of is that there are very few male role models who counter the things that they say and fewer still that will appeal to young lads of today, Louis Threoux for example, a great advocate but how many 14, 15 year old lads know who is he is, let alone listen to him?
I think about who I looked up to as a teenager and who current teenagers might listen too and I keep comming back to footballers.
I see very little on this from clubs, filled with male role models and I feel that they would be a great staring point for trying to redress some of the bile that is spewed by such people.
This might sound pie in the sky but I think there had ro be a beginning, and I think with our club, the community and the work that goes into that, it would seem as good a place as any. Maybe I'm old and out of touch (well i am) but if I was a teenage lad and Liam Delap, Omari or someone was on socials and other places speaking about how wrong this view is id take notice.
I'm inclined to email the club and ask them if they can do some messaging around the subject, partner with suitable charities and maybe from there more would follow.
Anyone have any idea who is best to email?
I appreciate I might be on a wild goose chase here but from those I know in teaching or similar roles working with young lads I really feel that is becoming more and more or anything issue with not enough push back on the narrative from those that might be listened to.
Any suggestions as to anyone I can try contacting at the club are much appreciated.
Thanks all |  |
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| Incels on 08:03 - Apr 2 with 1468 views | DJR |
| Incels on 23:19 - Apr 1 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I don't in any way want to downplay the mental health needs of girls and young women, but those figures demonstrate that girls and young women in a mental health crisis are more likely to access support, and be added to official statistics, whereas boys and young men don't, as demonstrated by the significantly higher rate of suicide amongst young males than young females.
Both have needs, but young men are very difficult to reach. |
The two reports I highlighted are based on surveys of how people feel, not on the proportion of girls or boys actually seeking help, but I do realise the "boy's don't cry" mentality doesn't help when it comes to mental health issues for boys/men.
As regards suicide rates, this suggests that in the US women are more likely to attempt suicide but men are more likely to succeed given they are more likely to use violent methods.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/future/article/20190313-why-more-men-kill-themselves-than-
Anyway, the answer is greater access to mental health services for both sexes (something sadly lacking), along with further steps to avoid the stigma that men have for seeking help, which includes talking to friends. [Post edited 2 Apr 8:17]
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| Incels on 08:31 - Apr 2 with 1418 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Incels on 08:03 - Apr 2 by DJR |
The two reports I highlighted are based on surveys of how people feel, not on the proportion of girls or boys actually seeking help, but I do realise the "boy's don't cry" mentality doesn't help when it comes to mental health issues for boys/men.
As regards suicide rates, this suggests that in the US women are more likely to attempt suicide but men are more likely to succeed given they are more likely to use violent methods.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/future/article/20190313-why-more-men-kill-themselves-than-
Anyway, the answer is greater access to mental health services for both sexes (something sadly lacking), along with further steps to avoid the stigma that men have for seeking help, which includes talking to friends. [Post edited 2 Apr 8:17]
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There is stigma, but much less than there was. There is also, i think, tje genuine issue that peoples spouses think less of them if they are no longer the strong rock. I gave up sharing any feelings with mine long ago bevause they always emded up mocked or used against me. |  | | |
| Incels on 08:50 - Apr 2 with 1391 views | Mullet |
| Incels on 17:13 - Apr 1 by Herbivore |
She knows she isn't likely to win an election so I'm guessing she's pitching for a Liz Truss style well-paid far-right shill gig in 5 years' time. Seems to have become a lucrative industry if you don't really care about having principles. |
I think with what Joe says too, there's a coordinated strategy across the right-wing. You see American talking points become global talking points and vice versa, since Elon's interest in the UK.
Same as the race swap/whitewash conspiracy being pushed front and centre. |  |
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| Incels on 08:54 - Apr 2 with 1382 views | Mullet |
| Incels on 22:19 - Apr 1 by Trequartista |
Ha yeah it does sound like your typical exagerrated claim but its 100% true, it just annoys me that much. Tate is a brainless monstrous mess of a human who can barely speak, Peterson is one of the cleverest, most incisive, fearless speakers I have come across. They could not be more different and are lazily lumped together by people who've just read one paragraph about incels. |
I get you've had a lot of pushback on here, but Peterson has been linked with incels and toxic masculinity etc from the getgo. His transphobia, erratic rants and the like for the past 5+ years has massively undermined his reputation.
He's an academic, with decades of experience talking in a polished and persuasive manner. But that fell apart almost immediately once he got fame. I'm honestly baffled by your appraisal regardless of his views and the like. | |
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| Incels on 09:00 - Apr 2 with 1353 views | Trequartista |
| Incels on 22:47 - Apr 1 by BlueBadger |
Peterson is basically a middle class Taint but with added icky weirdness thrown in though. |
I don't mind you having a different opinion at all, I'm not convinced that is reciprocated by some though. |  |
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| Incels on 09:03 - Apr 2 with 1333 views | DJR |
| Incels on 08:31 - Apr 2 by redrickstuhaart |
There is stigma, but much less than there was. There is also, i think, tje genuine issue that peoples spouses think less of them if they are no longer the strong rock. I gave up sharing any feelings with mine long ago bevause they always emded up mocked or used against me. |
That is a shame, but I suppose the "boys don't cry" mentality is presumably engrained in some or many women too. [Post edited 2 Apr 9:04]
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| Incels on 09:12 - Apr 2 with 1316 views | Trequartista |
| Incels on 23:13 - Apr 1 by rkc123 |
If you have listened to anything he has said in the past 5 years and still stand by what you have said here that is quite a revealing post; I don't really see how anyone could listen to any of the angry, culture-war baiting, woman hating stuff he has come out with recently and agree with any of it unless you are yourself aligned with that way of thinking. |
"quite a revealing post". I see that a lot from the liberal left when they are showing their authoritarian side - it is a subtle attempt to gain a moral authority over someone else, rather than just disagree.
I haven't even commented yet to say which opinions of his i disagree or agree with yet, only on his flair for debate! The shackles are already up though.
I was really impressed with his debating and clear thought for example with Cathy Newman on C4, his defence of free speech against some of the Trudeau legislation in Canada and various debates at Oxford Union, with Fry, Dawkins even Piers Morgan.
I'm not really interested in the recent Biblical stuff and disagree with his climate scepticism.
I really can't think how anyone could listen to him and think he is angry or culture-baiting or woman hating. He is often interviewed by his own daughter or wife. | |
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| Incels on 09:19 - Apr 2 with 1309 views | Trequartista |
| Incels on 08:54 - Apr 2 by Mullet |
I get you've had a lot of pushback on here, but Peterson has been linked with incels and toxic masculinity etc from the getgo. His transphobia, erratic rants and the like for the past 5+ years has massively undermined his reputation.
He's an academic, with decades of experience talking in a polished and persuasive manner. But that fell apart almost immediately once he got fame. I'm honestly baffled by your appraisal regardless of his views and the like. |
Again, I don't mind that you have a different opinion, but I've watched hours of him and he is clear, concise, genuinely believes everything he says, has years of experience in his field to back it up, I don't see any hate or transphobia or rants. Is it not healthy to have intelligent people on the right? There aren't that many from what i can see. | |
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| Incels on 09:30 - Apr 2 with 1273 views | Mullet |
| Incels on 09:19 - Apr 2 by Trequartista |
Again, I don't mind that you have a different opinion, but I've watched hours of him and he is clear, concise, genuinely believes everything he says, has years of experience in his field to back it up, I don't see any hate or transphobia or rants. Is it not healthy to have intelligent people on the right? There aren't that many from what i can see. |
But that doesn’t really address your idea that he’s totally different to Tate et al. He’s a psychologist, I’m not sure how that applies to his new field as a social commentator and media personality. He seems to be very detached from his field these days.
I get you like his style, but he has years of transphobia especially as he took to Twitter in the past few years sounding far from the speaker you admire https://mygwork.com/es/news/jordan-peterson-could-lose-psychology-license-follow
There’s also another link in there for more detail, but it’s widely reported for a long time now, so I find it really surprising a fan of his isn’t aware. Let alone this denial of him operating in the same sphere and attracting a young male audience like Tate. | |
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| Incels on 09:40 - Apr 2 with 1238 views | DJR |
| Incels on 09:30 - Apr 2 by Mullet |
But that doesn’t really address your idea that he’s totally different to Tate et al. He’s a psychologist, I’m not sure how that applies to his new field as a social commentator and media personality. He seems to be very detached from his field these days.
I get you like his style, but he has years of transphobia especially as he took to Twitter in the past few years sounding far from the speaker you admire https://mygwork.com/es/news/jordan-peterson-could-lose-psychology-license-follow
There’s also another link in there for more detail, but it’s widely reported for a long time now, so I find it really surprising a fan of his isn’t aware. Let alone this denial of him operating in the same sphere and attracting a young male audience like Tate. |
To be honest, I know little about him but this from Wikipedia is interesting.
"Peterson is a climate-change denier and has publicly expressed his disbelief in the scientific consensus on climate change. He has been identified by climate scientists as a "key organizer at the global level for efforts to oppose and delay action on climate change". His videos spreading climate change denialism have been viewed millions of times and include titles such as "The world is not ending", "Unsettled: climate and science" and "The great climate con"."
What qualifies him (as a psychologist) to take that view is a question worth asking but for me, it would make me treat with scepticism anything else he pontificates on.
I might add that I don't listen to You Tube videos to get information or form my views, and am sceptical of people with large followings because there's money in them there hills. [Post edited 2 Apr 9:43]
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| Incels on 09:40 - Apr 2 with 1234 views | Trequartista |
| Incels on 09:30 - Apr 2 by Mullet |
But that doesn’t really address your idea that he’s totally different to Tate et al. He’s a psychologist, I’m not sure how that applies to his new field as a social commentator and media personality. He seems to be very detached from his field these days.
I get you like his style, but he has years of transphobia especially as he took to Twitter in the past few years sounding far from the speaker you admire https://mygwork.com/es/news/jordan-peterson-could-lose-psychology-license-follow
There’s also another link in there for more detail, but it’s widely reported for a long time now, so I find it really surprising a fan of his isn’t aware. Let alone this denial of him operating in the same sphere and attracting a young male audience like Tate. |
"a compulsory coaching program " - does that not ring alarm bells? He's gender critical and despite what people bandying about the transphobic label are trying to do, that doesn't mean you hate trans people, as the University of Sussex have found to their cost recently with Kathleen Stock. | |
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| Incels on 09:41 - Apr 2 with 1227 views | rkc123 |
| Incels on 09:12 - Apr 2 by Trequartista |
"quite a revealing post". I see that a lot from the liberal left when they are showing their authoritarian side - it is a subtle attempt to gain a moral authority over someone else, rather than just disagree.
I haven't even commented yet to say which opinions of his i disagree or agree with yet, only on his flair for debate! The shackles are already up though.
I was really impressed with his debating and clear thought for example with Cathy Newman on C4, his defence of free speech against some of the Trudeau legislation in Canada and various debates at Oxford Union, with Fry, Dawkins even Piers Morgan.
I'm not really interested in the recent Biblical stuff and disagree with his climate scepticism.
I really can't think how anyone could listen to him and think he is angry or culture-baiting or woman hating. He is often interviewed by his own daughter or wife. |
So judging someone based on the views they hold is 'liberal'?
I prefaced my post by saying 'if you have listened to anything he has said in the last 5 years', because as others have said, his rhetoric has changed a lot in recent years. The Cathy Newman interview was 7 years ago, the majority of free speech stuff with Trudeau was further back than that I believe. I didn't necessarily agree with anything he was saying then, but I can see how he was seen as a voice in the debates that deserved to be listened to, you just can't say that for pretty much anything he has said recently.
I know you apparently stopped reading this thread after 7 words, but if you had read what Dan copied in, his comments on enforced monogamy, and still choose to defend him then yes I would stand by my suggestion that your posts are quite revealing. | | | |
| Incels on 09:45 - Apr 2 with 1186 views | Trequartista |
| Incels on 09:40 - Apr 2 by DJR |
To be honest, I know little about him but this from Wikipedia is interesting.
"Peterson is a climate-change denier and has publicly expressed his disbelief in the scientific consensus on climate change. He has been identified by climate scientists as a "key organizer at the global level for efforts to oppose and delay action on climate change". His videos spreading climate change denialism have been viewed millions of times and include titles such as "The world is not ending", "Unsettled: climate and science" and "The great climate con"."
What qualifies him (as a psychologist) to take that view is a question worth asking but for me, it would make me treat with scepticism anything else he pontificates on.
I might add that I don't listen to You Tube videos to get information or form my views, and am sceptical of people with large followings because there's money in them there hills. [Post edited 2 Apr 9:43]
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I disagree with him on climate change as per a previous post.
I think he has applied his pyschology too rigidly here. He distrusts the motives of those pushing net zero and therefore he's found solace in scientists who take a different view. But for me, even if he is right about the motives of those people, that doesn't mean they are wrong about climate change. [Post edited 2 Apr 9:45]
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| Incels on 09:50 - Apr 2 with 1140 views | Trequartista |
| Incels on 09:41 - Apr 2 by rkc123 |
So judging someone based on the views they hold is 'liberal'?
I prefaced my post by saying 'if you have listened to anything he has said in the last 5 years', because as others have said, his rhetoric has changed a lot in recent years. The Cathy Newman interview was 7 years ago, the majority of free speech stuff with Trudeau was further back than that I believe. I didn't necessarily agree with anything he was saying then, but I can see how he was seen as a voice in the debates that deserved to be listened to, you just can't say that for pretty much anything he has said recently.
I know you apparently stopped reading this thread after 7 words, but if you had read what Dan copied in, his comments on enforced monogamy, and still choose to defend him then yes I would stand by my suggestion that your posts are quite revealing. |
No i stopped reading the op after 7 words, and other than that have just read responses to my posts. I don't know anybody personally so I shouldn't label anyone, I just label a view or in this case a phrase used, and you've done it again. I mean really, I should read something and comply with the argument or I'm a baddy. Can you not see what you are doing there? | |
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| Incels on 09:50 - Apr 2 with 1141 views | Swailsey |
| Incels on 22:19 - Apr 1 by Trequartista |
Ha yeah it does sound like your typical exagerrated claim but its 100% true, it just annoys me that much. Tate is a brainless monstrous mess of a human who can barely speak, Peterson is one of the cleverest, most incisive, fearless speakers I have come across. They could not be more different and are lazily lumped together by people who've just read one paragraph about incels. |
Had to log in to comment on this.
Whilst he isn’t as bad as Tate, people are absolutely right to lump Peterson in together.
I am not someone who has “read one paragraph on incels”.
Peterson is a dangerous man, masquerading as someone who is always playing devil’s advocate.
He appeals to the same audience of Tate, and is almost as much of a problem. I fear you aren’t familiar with all of his stances, or if you are, you’re choosing to ignore the red flags.
Don’t mean to be confrontational - but this is the problem. For every loud-mouthed obviously awful Tate, there is a secret, sly Peterson who is peddling toxic information. |  |
| Who said: "Colin Healy made Cesc Fabregas look like Colin Healy"? | We miss you TLA |
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| Incels on 09:58 - Apr 2 with 1106 views | Trequartista |
| Incels on 09:50 - Apr 2 by Swailsey |
Had to log in to comment on this.
Whilst he isn’t as bad as Tate, people are absolutely right to lump Peterson in together.
I am not someone who has “read one paragraph on incels”.
Peterson is a dangerous man, masquerading as someone who is always playing devil’s advocate.
He appeals to the same audience of Tate, and is almost as much of a problem. I fear you aren’t familiar with all of his stances, or if you are, you’re choosing to ignore the red flags.
Don’t mean to be confrontational - but this is the problem. For every loud-mouthed obviously awful Tate, there is a secret, sly Peterson who is peddling toxic information. |
I disagree, but I respect that you have watched him and formed your conclusion, and confrontation is absolutely fine and perhaps in some cases necessary as long as its not personal or insulting.
I don't really see how appealing to the same people, whether that's true or not, is an argument for judging someone. I judge them on what they say and try to judge if they are sincere or grifting for want of a better word. I'm fairly sure its the former. | |
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| Incels on 10:00 - Apr 2 with 1091 views | Mullet |
| Incels on 09:40 - Apr 2 by Trequartista |
"a compulsory coaching program " - does that not ring alarm bells? He's gender critical and despite what people bandying about the transphobic label are trying to do, that doesn't mean you hate trans people, as the University of Sussex have found to their cost recently with Kathleen Stock. |
Maybe it does, but again you’re seemingly refusing to actually substantiate any of what you’re arguing. I don’t think you’ve replied yet without moving on to something or someone else. That’s pretty telling.
Likewise you’ve claimed not to know about his transphobia which makes it really hard to take you seriously in this thread. Aside from the rights and wrongs gender-affirming surgery (something musk has had but is never criticised for by the right incidentally) his refusal to use people’s names or pronouns as a sort of macho show, is indicative of the lack of credibility or intelligence he’s held up in.
Even the trans community itself is divided on these issues but he presents the extremes as the norm to justify his views. That’s no different to the people who claim all Muslims are hook handed suicide bombers or whatever.
It’s not a label, it’s a consequence of actions he’s very proud of and refusing to accept the consequences of them, gives him money and status to groom his followers. A lot of whom will justify anything he says with “but he’s helped lots of people” because he wrote a self help book that went viral (thanks in large part to his shtick on social media). | |
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| Incels on 10:04 - Apr 2 with 1060 views | rkc123 |
| Incels on 09:50 - Apr 2 by Trequartista |
No i stopped reading the op after 7 words, and other than that have just read responses to my posts. I don't know anybody personally so I shouldn't label anyone, I just label a view or in this case a phrase used, and you've done it again. I mean really, I should read something and comply with the argument or I'm a baddy. Can you not see what you are doing there? |
It's just about being open to the idea that people might change or reveal something about themselves which changes your view of them. I am not someone who militantly argues against anyone who holds a slightly different world view to me, I agree with your point that you can hold a contrary view on an issue such as Trans rights without it automatically being Transphobic, and I agree when Peterson focused far more on the free speech element of things rather than Trans people I wouldn't necessarily have described him as Transphobic, but that isn't what he does anymore.
Just from a quick google these are a couple of things he has said in the last couple of years on the Trans issue:
He described gender affirming care as: "The worst atrocities of the 20th century—this is medical malpractice on a massive scale." and stood by this assertion when pressed on whether he included Nazi medical experiments in his consideration
He dehumanises Trans people, claiming it is all a conspiracy, and portrays trans people as a threat rather than as individuals: "The trans movement is not about compassion or rights. It’s a weaponized ideology aimed at destroying the foundations of Western civilization." | | | |
| Incels on 10:14 - Apr 2 with 1013 views | Trequartista |
| Incels on 10:04 - Apr 2 by rkc123 |
It's just about being open to the idea that people might change or reveal something about themselves which changes your view of them. I am not someone who militantly argues against anyone who holds a slightly different world view to me, I agree with your point that you can hold a contrary view on an issue such as Trans rights without it automatically being Transphobic, and I agree when Peterson focused far more on the free speech element of things rather than Trans people I wouldn't necessarily have described him as Transphobic, but that isn't what he does anymore.
Just from a quick google these are a couple of things he has said in the last couple of years on the Trans issue:
He described gender affirming care as: "The worst atrocities of the 20th century—this is medical malpractice on a massive scale." and stood by this assertion when pressed on whether he included Nazi medical experiments in his consideration
He dehumanises Trans people, claiming it is all a conspiracy, and portrays trans people as a threat rather than as individuals: "The trans movement is not about compassion or rights. It’s a weaponized ideology aimed at destroying the foundations of Western civilization." |
Do you think irreversible surgery on children is a good thing? | |
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| Incels on 10:16 - Apr 2 with 1005 views | BlueBadger |
| Incels on 09:00 - Apr 2 by Trequartista |
I don't mind you having a different opinion at all, I'm not convinced that is reciprocated by some though. |
Nah, it's a fact. Peterson just dresses all his Taint-isms up in big words and doesn't shout as much, so he fools a slightly different flavour of sad sack.
Plus, if you google 'Jordan Peterson grandma dream' and don't say 'WTF'(at the very least) there's definitely something wrong with you. |  |
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| Incels on 10:22 - Apr 2 with 966 views | Trequartista |
| Incels on 10:00 - Apr 2 by Mullet |
Maybe it does, but again you’re seemingly refusing to actually substantiate any of what you’re arguing. I don’t think you’ve replied yet without moving on to something or someone else. That’s pretty telling.
Likewise you’ve claimed not to know about his transphobia which makes it really hard to take you seriously in this thread. Aside from the rights and wrongs gender-affirming surgery (something musk has had but is never criticised for by the right incidentally) his refusal to use people’s names or pronouns as a sort of macho show, is indicative of the lack of credibility or intelligence he’s held up in.
Even the trans community itself is divided on these issues but he presents the extremes as the norm to justify his views. That’s no different to the people who claim all Muslims are hook handed suicide bombers or whatever.
It’s not a label, it’s a consequence of actions he’s very proud of and refusing to accept the consequences of them, gives him money and status to groom his followers. A lot of whom will justify anything he says with “but he’s helped lots of people” because he wrote a self help book that went viral (thanks in large part to his shtick on social media). |
I've spent quite a bit of time today answering everybody the best I can. I was not claiming not to know about his transphobia, I was debating whether it was transphobic or what does transphobia actually mean. e.g. i think its hatred or discrimination against trans people, but others seem to use it against anyone with gender critical views.
I'm sure his view is that he would use someone's preferred pronoun out of courtesy but he would not if compelled to do so. When he was debating someone who insisted he should put 32 different pronouns onto his phone and learn them he seems more the normal person than the outlier.
I think if you're finding it hard to take me seriously then there's not really any common ground here to continue unfortunately. | |
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| Incels on 10:38 - Apr 2 with 905 views | Herbivore |
| Incels on 10:22 - Apr 2 by Trequartista |
I've spent quite a bit of time today answering everybody the best I can. I was not claiming not to know about his transphobia, I was debating whether it was transphobic or what does transphobia actually mean. e.g. i think its hatred or discrimination against trans people, but others seem to use it against anyone with gender critical views.
I'm sure his view is that he would use someone's preferred pronoun out of courtesy but he would not if compelled to do so. When he was debating someone who insisted he should put 32 different pronouns onto his phone and learn them he seems more the normal person than the outlier.
I think if you're finding it hard to take me seriously then there's not really any common ground here to continue unfortunately. |
Do you not think the claim that trans "ideology" is aimed at destroying the foundations of western civilization is a transphobic view? If not, replace the word "trans" with "Jewish" or "homosexual" and see whether you think it'd constitute antisemitism or homophobia. |  |
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| Incels on 11:08 - Apr 2 with 827 views | DanTheMan |
| Incels on 10:22 - Apr 2 by Trequartista |
I've spent quite a bit of time today answering everybody the best I can. I was not claiming not to know about his transphobia, I was debating whether it was transphobic or what does transphobia actually mean. e.g. i think its hatred or discrimination against trans people, but others seem to use it against anyone with gender critical views.
I'm sure his view is that he would use someone's preferred pronoun out of courtesy but he would not if compelled to do so. When he was debating someone who insisted he should put 32 different pronouns onto his phone and learn them he seems more the normal person than the outlier.
I think if you're finding it hard to take me seriously then there's not really any common ground here to continue unfortunately. |
"I'm sure his view is that he would use someone's preferred pronoun out of courtesy"
He does not do that.
https://nypost.com/2022/06/30/twitter-suspends-jordan-peterson-for-elliot-page-s
There was this whole debacle, and then he said he'd rather die than call him Elliot. Doesn't sound very courteous to me. [Post edited 2 Apr 11:09]
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| Incels on 11:31 - Apr 2 with 773 views | Herbivore |
But if you ignore 90% of what he says and does and falsely attribute more reasonable behaviors and positions to him, then maybe he's not actually that bad? | |
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| Incels on 11:33 - Apr 2 with 765 views | StokieBlue |
| Incels on 11:31 - Apr 2 by Herbivore |
But if you ignore 90% of what he says and does and falsely attribute more reasonable behaviors and positions to him, then maybe he's not actually that bad? |
You have to try and understand his point of view and give his opinions equal weight rather than believing your view backed by your evidence is correct.
Or something.
SB |  | | |
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