| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:33 - Apr 24 with 1658 views | giant_stow |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 00:15 - Apr 24 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I was talking about her real sentence, not that of the families. Do you perhaps think that without serving time she might do it again? The notion that sentencing deters others is demonstrably a myth so who gains solace from this approach? |
Thanks for laying out your opinion mr. For what its worth, I'm glad someone is thinking of her and that's to your credit, but she deserves the sentence for all the reasons others have already put on the thread |  |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 18:39 - Apr 24 with 1541 views | eireblue |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 00:15 - Apr 24 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I was talking about her real sentence, not that of the families. Do you perhaps think that without serving time she might do it again? The notion that sentencing deters others is demonstrably a myth so who gains solace from this approach? |
Yes.
Plenty of people that grift and con, carry on doing just that.
You are correct the length of sentence is generally not a deterrent.
The chance of getting caught and punished is.
One would hope, as did the person that survived, that this may make people think about whether they could get away with running dodgy tours that were risky, or may start better regulations.
Most people wouldn’t learn to Scuba dive or parachute with an unqualified/unregulated organisation. |  | | |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 08:21 - Apr 25 with 1434 views | DJR |
It seems the question of appropriateness (other than in an academic, moral or other sense) didn't come into play in sentencing.
This explains the crime.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/gross-negligence-manslaughter
This, in particular, is a high barrier to overcome.
"The breach of duty must be so bad as to be gross, i.e. criminal. This was defined in Adomako [1994] 3 All ER 79 as follows: having regard to the risk of death involved, was the conduct of the defendant so bad in all the circumstances as to amount to a criminal act or omission? The prosecution must prove the following two elements:
a) that the circumstances were such that a reasonably prudent person in the defendant's position would have foreseen a serious and obvious risk of death arising from the defendant's act or omission;
b) that the breach of duty was, in all the circumstances, so reprehensible and fell so far below the standards to be expected of a person in the defendant's position with his qualifications, experience and responsibilities that it amounted to a crime."
This explains the sentencing for such a crime, which ranges from 1-18 years' custody.
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/crown-court/item/gross-negligence-
I can't find this covered in any report of the sentencing, but I assume judge must have decided that the defendant had high culpability for which the custody range is 6-12 years with a starting point of 8 years' custody. [Post edited 25 Apr 9:03]
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 10:11 - Apr 25 with 1374 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 00:11 - Apr 24 by Nthsuffolkblue |
What do you suggest is appropriate?
You seem to be taking the position she made a minor mistake and it was a tragic unforeseeable accident. It really doesn't read like that to me. |
I certainly don't think it was a minor mistake. My OP was a simple question as I am genuinely interested in people's thoughts. There seem to be many people who think that as a society we resort to the use of prison too easily but not many that follow that through when it comes to the detail.
Personally I feel she should be obliged to engage with any family members that wish to do so in a mentored setting for as long as they wish, followed by say 20 years of suitable and relevant work in the community. If people really feel the need to remove her liberty then perhaps a year but I genuinely struggle to see what purpose this serves.
I admit that my position is based on an assumption, as an empathic human being, that most of us would be riddled by guilt and remorse in a similar situation. Perhaps I have too much faith in humanity. |  |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 10:17 - Apr 25 with 1367 views | StokieBlue |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 10:11 - Apr 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I certainly don't think it was a minor mistake. My OP was a simple question as I am genuinely interested in people's thoughts. There seem to be many people who think that as a society we resort to the use of prison too easily but not many that follow that through when it comes to the detail.
Personally I feel she should be obliged to engage with any family members that wish to do so in a mentored setting for as long as they wish, followed by say 20 years of suitable and relevant work in the community. If people really feel the need to remove her liberty then perhaps a year but I genuinely struggle to see what purpose this serves.
I admit that my position is based on an assumption, as an empathic human being, that most of us would be riddled by guilt and remorse in a similar situation. Perhaps I have too much faith in humanity. |
I think the overuse of prison is with regards to much more minor offences that manslaughter.
By the logic that you've outlined, many murderers are probably remorseful, should they also avoid jail and do community work?
She didn't follow the law, she wasn't qualified, she didn't follow safety demonstration guidelines and she led 4 people to their deaths. If she had been responsible in her actions they wouldn't be dead. Your proposed sentencing would open up a huge can of worms whereby anyone causing the manslaughter of another person could just say they are sorry and remorseful and carry on with their lives whilst doing some community work.
It's all very well appealing to empathy and guilt but the 4 dead people no longer have the ability to even feel such things.
SB [Post edited 25 Apr 10:32]
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 10:58 - Apr 25 with 1312 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 10:11 - Apr 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I certainly don't think it was a minor mistake. My OP was a simple question as I am genuinely interested in people's thoughts. There seem to be many people who think that as a society we resort to the use of prison too easily but not many that follow that through when it comes to the detail.
Personally I feel she should be obliged to engage with any family members that wish to do so in a mentored setting for as long as they wish, followed by say 20 years of suitable and relevant work in the community. If people really feel the need to remove her liberty then perhaps a year but I genuinely struggle to see what purpose this serves.
I admit that my position is based on an assumption, as an empathic human being, that most of us would be riddled by guilt and remorse in a similar situation. Perhaps I have too much faith in humanity. |
I'm coming round to rob your house later. I'l be very sorry and be remorseful afterwards. Make sure you leave out the good whiskey. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:05 - Apr 25 with 1289 views | Ryorry |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 10:11 - Apr 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I certainly don't think it was a minor mistake. My OP was a simple question as I am genuinely interested in people's thoughts. There seem to be many people who think that as a society we resort to the use of prison too easily but not many that follow that through when it comes to the detail.
Personally I feel she should be obliged to engage with any family members that wish to do so in a mentored setting for as long as they wish, followed by say 20 years of suitable and relevant work in the community. If people really feel the need to remove her liberty then perhaps a year but I genuinely struggle to see what purpose this serves.
I admit that my position is based on an assumption, as an empathic human being, that most of us would be riddled by guilt and remorse in a similar situation. Perhaps I have too much faith in humanity. |
As you admit in your final paragraph, you are only seeing things from one angle, your own. I don’t know you, but it sounds as though you’re young, idealistic and possibly a tad naive? - as I was before a few years working as a probation officer decades ago resulted in me wising up … (well a bit anyway!).
This woman was a grifter who conned people out of their money, deliberately prioritising her income stream above their lives. She expressed little or no remorse for the deaths of 4 people, and the long term impact on their families. She deserves to be properly punished, and the families deserve to see that. “Justice needs to not only be done, but to be seen to be done”. |  |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:13 - Apr 25 with 1279 views | RadioOrwell |
Cyclists who kill pedestrians by dangerous cycling could face life imprisonment in England and Wales under new amendments to the crime and policing bill.
The offence of causing death by dangerous cycling would be brought into line with driving laws under amendments tabled on Thursday, the Department for Transport said.
Dangerous or reckless cycling is usually punished with a maximum two-year jail term. The amendments renew a planned change of the law under the Conservatives that was derailed by the general election.
----------- But what if they were really really sorry ??? |  | | |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:34 - Apr 25 with 1261 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:13 - Apr 25 by RadioOrwell |
Cyclists who kill pedestrians by dangerous cycling could face life imprisonment in England and Wales under new amendments to the crime and policing bill.
The offence of causing death by dangerous cycling would be brought into line with driving laws under amendments tabled on Thursday, the Department for Transport said.
Dangerous or reckless cycling is usually punished with a maximum two-year jail term. The amendments renew a planned change of the law under the Conservatives that was derailed by the general election.
----------- But what if they were really really sorry ??? |
If you got carried away one day and killed someone on your bicycle and were then faced with the consequences of your actions in the shape of their family, do you think you'd do it again? | |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:49 - Apr 25 with 1237 views | RadioOrwell |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:34 - Apr 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
If you got carried away one day and killed someone on your bicycle and were then faced with the consequences of your actions in the shape of their family, do you think you'd do it again? |
"got carried away one day and killed someone"
Now you're just trolling us. | | | |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:52 - Apr 25 with 1232 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:05 - Apr 25 by Ryorry |
As you admit in your final paragraph, you are only seeing things from one angle, your own. I don’t know you, but it sounds as though you’re young, idealistic and possibly a tad naive? - as I was before a few years working as a probation officer decades ago resulted in me wising up … (well a bit anyway!).
This woman was a grifter who conned people out of their money, deliberately prioritising her income stream above their lives. She expressed little or no remorse for the deaths of 4 people, and the long term impact on their families. She deserves to be properly punished, and the families deserve to see that. “Justice needs to not only be done, but to be seen to be done”. |
I think that's the angle we all see things from Ryorry! I am definitely very, very young and idealistic!
I also note that she was a retired copper (may or may not be mitigating!) and a volunteer with R.N.L.I. and her actions are inexcusable. Also at least one parent I saw stated that no sentence was going to bring their child back.
There are times that sentencing seems more about satisfying the baying mob, as per a good stoning, rather than anything more. | |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:56 - Apr 25 with 1214 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 10:58 - Apr 25 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I'm coming round to rob your house later. I'l be very sorry and be remorseful afterwards. Make sure you leave out the good whiskey. |
Like they'll catch you!
Hopefully if they do, they'll train you up as a tree surgeon, plumber or some such and you'll feel the warm glow of satisfaction when you get to buy your own! However if I have caught you in time might I suggest you consider a radical overhaul of society....have you considered joining the Labour Party? | |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:57 - Apr 25 with 1212 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:49 - Apr 25 by RadioOrwell |
"got carried away one day and killed someone"
Now you're just trolling us. |
No I'm not, I'm just imagining you drunk on a bike! | |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:00 - Apr 25 with 1191 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 10:11 - Apr 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I certainly don't think it was a minor mistake. My OP was a simple question as I am genuinely interested in people's thoughts. There seem to be many people who think that as a society we resort to the use of prison too easily but not many that follow that through when it comes to the detail.
Personally I feel she should be obliged to engage with any family members that wish to do so in a mentored setting for as long as they wish, followed by say 20 years of suitable and relevant work in the community. If people really feel the need to remove her liberty then perhaps a year but I genuinely struggle to see what purpose this serves.
I admit that my position is based on an assumption, as an empathic human being, that most of us would be riddled by guilt and remorse in a similar situation. Perhaps I have too much faith in humanity. |
How about someone who kills others through reckless or drunk driving?
What is the difference here? |  | | |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:04 - Apr 25 with 1166 views | DJR |
I came across this from 2018 which indicates that tougher penalties for gross negligence manslaughter were a response to things like workplace deaths.
"Sentencing Council publishes new guideline on gross negligence manslaughter
This new guideline is likely to result in increased penalties for individuals responsible for fatal workplace accidents.
For the first time the Sentencing Council has drawn up a comprehensive sentencing guideline for manslaughter cases, including gross negligence manslaughter. Individuals responsible for workplace fatalities can be prosecuted for gross negligence manslaughter when they are in breach of a duty of care towards the victim and that breach causes the death of the victim and, having regard to the risk involved, the individual’s conduct was so bad as to amount to a criminal act or omission. An example may be an employer’s long-standing and serious disregard for the safety of employees, motivated by cost-cutting which has caused the death.
Current sentencing practice in gross negligence cases is generally lower in the overall context of manslaughter cases. The new guideline aims to give consistent sentencing for all forms of manslaughter. The offence range for gross negligence manslaughter is one to 18 years in prison, but the maximum sentence (if the judge departed from this) is life imprisonment. The guideline applies to individuals aged 18 and over, sentenced in England and Wales on or after 1 November 2018, regardless of when the offence took place." | | | |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:04 - Apr 25 with 1163 views | giant_stow |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:57 - Apr 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
No I'm not, I'm just imagining you drunk on a bike! |
I think you're overcomplicating this now fella. Given all the healthy & safety rules and accompanying laws already in place, what course of action available to the courts was most likely to stop a similar event happening again?
That's got to be the most important question.
A quiet slap on the wrist wouldn't have helped prevent anything. | |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:06 - Apr 25 with 1155 views | Herbivore |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:52 - Apr 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I think that's the angle we all see things from Ryorry! I am definitely very, very young and idealistic!
I also note that she was a retired copper (may or may not be mitigating!) and a volunteer with R.N.L.I. and her actions are inexcusable. Also at least one parent I saw stated that no sentence was going to bring their child back.
There are times that sentencing seems more about satisfying the baying mob, as per a good stoning, rather than anything more. |
But justice has to incorporate some form of punishment for the crime alongside considering the risk of reoffending and promoting rehabilitation. It can't be enough for the punishment to be them having to live with their crime. How would you judge the impact of that, particularly as she tried to blame others and hasn't shown much remorse? Her actions caused the deaths of four people, it absolutely warrants a custodial sentence. |  |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:06 - Apr 25 with 1159 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:04 - Apr 25 by giant_stow |
I think you're overcomplicating this now fella. Given all the healthy & safety rules and accompanying laws already in place, what course of action available to the courts was most likely to stop a similar event happening again?
That's got to be the most important question.
A quiet slap on the wrist wouldn't have helped prevent anything. |
Indeed. Deterrence is a thing. People need to know that if they run cowboy operations for money and put money ahead of safety, there are serious consequences. The bar for this type of conviction really is high and does not apply to mistakes, or even general negligence. [Post edited 25 Apr 12:36]
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:12 - Apr 25 with 1139 views | lowhouseblue |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:52 - Apr 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I think that's the angle we all see things from Ryorry! I am definitely very, very young and idealistic!
I also note that she was a retired copper (may or may not be mitigating!) and a volunteer with R.N.L.I. and her actions are inexcusable. Also at least one parent I saw stated that no sentence was going to bring their child back.
There are times that sentencing seems more about satisfying the baying mob, as per a good stoning, rather than anything more. |
why does your logic only apply to gross negligence manslaughter? no sentence reverses the effect of any crime. why then is manslaughter special? with manslaughter your intent is not to kill, whereas most crimes involve intent, but manslaughter involves an avoidable act which carries a high probability of someone dying. why is acting with recklessness and imposing that unchosen risk of death on another person, a person who is reliant upon your competence, special for you? is there really a difference in culpability just because the death came about through a risky gamble rather than through conscious intent? what about corporate manslaughter where companies impose risks on their customers - are you happy for the ceo just to be left with a lasting sense of inner guilt? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:36 - Apr 25 with 1090 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:06 - Apr 25 by Herbivore |
But justice has to incorporate some form of punishment for the crime alongside considering the risk of reoffending and promoting rehabilitation. It can't be enough for the punishment to be them having to live with their crime. How would you judge the impact of that, particularly as she tried to blame others and hasn't shown much remorse? Her actions caused the deaths of four people, it absolutely warrants a custodial sentence. |
Pretty much agree with your first sentence. Despite the misrepresentation of some on here I have not suggested she just says sorry and moves on. | |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:37 - Apr 25 with 1086 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:12 - Apr 25 by lowhouseblue |
why does your logic only apply to gross negligence manslaughter? no sentence reverses the effect of any crime. why then is manslaughter special? with manslaughter your intent is not to kill, whereas most crimes involve intent, but manslaughter involves an avoidable act which carries a high probability of someone dying. why is acting with recklessness and imposing that unchosen risk of death on another person, a person who is reliant upon your competence, special for you? is there really a difference in culpability just because the death came about through a risky gamble rather than through conscious intent? what about corporate manslaughter where companies impose risks on their customers - are you happy for the ceo just to be left with a lasting sense of inner guilt? |
It doesn't!
Edit....when was a CEO last jailed for corporate manslaughter?
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/corporate-manslaughter#:~:text=The%20level
The level of sentence will depend on the size of the organisation. The sentence range is specified as £180,000 to £20 million. The offence of Corporate Manslaughter is indictable only. [Post edited 25 Apr 12:40]
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:43 - Apr 25 with 1054 views | Ryorry |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 11:52 - Apr 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I think that's the angle we all see things from Ryorry! I am definitely very, very young and idealistic!
I also note that she was a retired copper (may or may not be mitigating!) and a volunteer with R.N.L.I. and her actions are inexcusable. Also at least one parent I saw stated that no sentence was going to bring their child back.
There are times that sentencing seems more about satisfying the baying mob, as per a good stoning, rather than anything more. |
Sorry but your last paragraph (edit - re “the baying mob”) is nonsense. Have you read the links DJR posted on sentencing guidelines re this crime? Why I didn’t become a lawyer - pages & pages & pages just to define the word ‘serious’ before they even start …
FWIW many people in the judicial system, including myself, have argued that prison is an overused and ineffective punishment - but for minor crimes like shoplifting or petty theft, not for something as serious and reprehensible as this case. [Post edited 25 Apr 12:48]
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:44 - Apr 25 with 1049 views | lowhouseblue |
so 10 years for 4 murders would also be wrong? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:54 - Apr 25 with 1019 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:44 - Apr 25 by lowhouseblue |
so 10 years for 4 murders would also be wrong? |
It was you that brought up CEO's. It seems that they don't even have to feel guilty! | |
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| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:57 - Apr 25 with 1007 views | lowhouseblue |
| Is prison really appropriate here and if so why? on 12:54 - Apr 25 by BanksterDebtSlave |
It was you that brought up CEO's. It seems that they don't even have to feel guilty! |
but your answer is ...? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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