| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football 11:30 - May 1 with 8034 views | Swansea_Blue |
Which I suppose is effectively a ban from all football for any that have gone through any form of conversion therapy. No mention of a position on trans men though.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cz01z4rdx4no
Hmm, Football or General? [Post edited 1 May 11:30]
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 13:50 - May 2 with 899 views | DJR |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:13 - May 2 by lowhouseblue |
i'm sure the nhs will be reviewing it's language generally. as i've said, it seems a poor use of language to me. would we say someone with anorexia is trapped inside a body with a normal range bmi? or someone with body dysmorphia is trapped inside a body that to them looks wrong? 'trapped' denies the reality that the body we have is the only body we're ever going to have |
The Supreme Court decision had nothing to do with the diagnosis or description of gender dysphoria, which is a condition recognised in many more countries than just the UK.
Anyway, I'm shortly off to Liverpool for the weekend, so won't be carrying on this debate as I don't post thing on TWTD from my phone, not least because it is difficult to read TWTD on a phone because the type is so small. [Post edited 2 May 13:56]
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 13:57 - May 2 with 868 views | glasso |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 18:38 - May 1 by Hugoagogo_Reborn |
Whilst I see your point of view, the fact is, why should women who have battled decades of bans and discrimination then be forced to open the doors to trans women who have gone through puberty as biological males and gain an unfair advantage over those women who have a right to play their sport?
28 people are affected by this ruling. Countless hundreds and thousands of women are protected by this ruling.
Nothing in life is perfectly fair, but I can't disagree with the FA here. |
Your last line sums up the absurdity of it all.
28 trans people do not affect countless hundreds and thousands of women. There just aren't enough trans people for it to affect that many, and they're not all interested in playing football.
The reality is that 28 trans people are affected by this ruling, and at best... what, 300 women are protected by it (many of whom haven't even asked to be protected by it) |  | | |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 20:26 - May 2 with 752 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 13:57 - May 2 by glasso |
Your last line sums up the absurdity of it all.
28 trans people do not affect countless hundreds and thousands of women. There just aren't enough trans people for it to affect that many, and they're not all interested in playing football.
The reality is that 28 trans people are affected by this ruling, and at best... what, 300 women are protected by it (many of whom haven't even asked to be protected by it) |
300 women? I'd say it affects far more than that, in the football pyramid. From 12/13 years old upwards. |  | | |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 21:14 - May 2 with 702 views | Ryorry |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 20:26 - May 2 by Hugoagogo_Reborn |
300 women? I'd say it affects far more than that, in the football pyramid. From 12/13 years old upwards. |
I think s/he meant 300 being the other team members of those 28 (but even so, there's more than one team at most clubs, including all the age groups, reserves etc, so that seems to me an underestimate).
But those 28 are only the individuals who are known, there might be many more who simply haven't come out. |  |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 21:21 - May 2 with 673 views | vapour_trail |
I know a trans woman who started a women’s team round here that my wife briefly played for.
They’ve got themselves properly established now.
She can’t play for them any more. I feel so sorry for her. |  |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 22:31 - May 2 with 625 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 20:26 - May 2 by Hugoagogo_Reborn |
300 women? I'd say it affects far more than that, in the football pyramid. From 12/13 years old upwards. |
I doubt it. There are 20 players, so the numbers of other players they come into contact with will be limited. And besides, what risks have any of these 20 players presented? What have any done to threaten anyone else? I imagine very little to nothing (but don’t know of course, and given the low numbers Ivsuspect you don’t know either). | |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 09:10 - May 3 with 506 views | Libero |
Yay, they've stopped 28 people from playing football - what a win, common sense, etc, etc. |  | | |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 09:15 - May 3 with 490 views | Herbivore |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 09:10 - May 3 by Libero |
Yay, they've stopped 28 people from playing football - what a win, common sense, etc, etc. |
It's cool to not care about minority groups these days. |  |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 09:20 - May 3 with 480 views | Libero |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 09:15 - May 3 by Herbivore |
It's cool to not care about minority groups these days. |
Thing is, there is debate to be had around the subject and more research is needed- I don't even think it's as simple as a one size fits all approach for all sports- but from my point of view this seems a cowardly washing of hands by the FA who essentially don't want to get involved, instead they lean on the recent court case - which again, it seems majority of people have misunderstood.
If trans women had that much of an advantage, surely these 28 women would all be playing for the lionesses or their respective nations? Or at very minimum, the top level for women's football - how many are? (genuinely, I don't know)
Is it the case that a trans woman is competing in a women's league and scoring 100 goals a season?
It's vastly more complex than people who rarely come into contact with trans people seem to realise. | | | |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 11:24 - May 5 with 323 views | glasso |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 21:14 - May 2 by Ryorry |
I think s/he meant 300 being the other team members of those 28 (but even so, there's more than one team at most clubs, including all the age groups, reserves etc, so that seems to me an underestimate).
But those 28 are only the individuals who are known, there might be many more who simply haven't come out. |
This is what I meant, but why would a transgender player affect more than one team at their club?
Given there's a handful all over the country, there's realistically only going to be at most, one trans player at your club.
If she's in the U17s team, it doesn't affect you/your kid who plays in the U13s. At worst, it affects the U17s team and whoever their opposition is - and that's assuming any of them are actually bothered about it. Youngsters these days are far more open minded than their parents/grumpy old people like us, and I'm willing to bet (without evidence, of course), that most of them couldn't care less as long as their teammate is a decent person and handy with a football. | | | |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 11:33 - May 5 with 294 views | DJR |
Interesting to note the line that Lord Sumption (a former Supreme Court judge) has taken in relation to the court's ruling.
Lord Sumption argued that while many have taken the ruling to mean that service providers are obliged to provide single-sex spaces based on biological sex, the ruling meant that excluding transgender people from single-sex spaces was allowed, and not a breach of the 2010 Equality Act.
He said: “That’s the main point, which I think has been misunderstood about this judgment. I think it’s quite important to note that you are allowed to exclude trans women from these facilities. But you are not obliged to do it.
“So, for example, the authorities of a sport such as women’s boxing, women’s football, are allowed to limit it to biological women. They were not in breach of the discrimination rules of the [Equality] Act. But the judgment does not mean that the sporting authorities have got to limit women’s boxing or women’s football to biological women.” [Post edited 5 May 11:36]
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 11:38 - May 5 with 278 views | J2BLUE |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 11:33 - May 5 by DJR |
Interesting to note the line that Lord Sumption (a former Supreme Court judge) has taken in relation to the court's ruling.
Lord Sumption argued that while many have taken the ruling to mean that service providers are obliged to provide single-sex spaces based on biological sex, the ruling meant that excluding transgender people from single-sex spaces was allowed, and not a breach of the 2010 Equality Act.
He said: “That’s the main point, which I think has been misunderstood about this judgment. I think it’s quite important to note that you are allowed to exclude trans women from these facilities. But you are not obliged to do it.
“So, for example, the authorities of a sport such as women’s boxing, women’s football, are allowed to limit it to biological women. They were not in breach of the discrimination rules of the [Equality] Act. But the judgment does not mean that the sporting authorities have got to limit women’s boxing or women’s football to biological women.” [Post edited 5 May 11:36]
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As I said on first page, I would imagine most sporting bodies are just relieved they don't have to make the decision for themselves and can point to this ruling for justification.
It's fine for people to call it cowardly but this whole debate is so polarised I don't think they can be blamed for going along with this. |  |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 11:54 - May 5 with 245 views | lowhouseblue |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 11:38 - May 5 by J2BLUE |
As I said on first page, I would imagine most sporting bodies are just relieved they don't have to make the decision for themselves and can point to this ruling for justification.
It's fine for people to call it cowardly but this whole debate is so polarised I don't think they can be blamed for going along with this. |
also lord sumption's point, which djr refers to, is at best unclear. true, organisations are not compelled to segregate facilities on the basis of biological sex, but the equality act does not provide any exemptions which would allow for segregation on any other basis. so saying that facilities or teams etc are open to women and trans women but not open to other biological males, for example, would in all likelihood be held to be discriminatory under the equality act.
so i think you are right that sporting bodies have had little choice but to point to the ruling, and indeed the preliminary ehrc guidance, rather than to take something of an flyer on lord sumption's untested musings on radio 4. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:22 - May 5 with 200 views | MK1 |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 11:37 - May 1 by textbackup |
Common sense |
Agree. |  |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 12:29 - May 5 with 192 views | Ryorry |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 11:24 - May 5 by glasso |
This is what I meant, but why would a transgender player affect more than one team at their club?
Given there's a handful all over the country, there's realistically only going to be at most, one trans player at your club.
If she's in the U17s team, it doesn't affect you/your kid who plays in the U13s. At worst, it affects the U17s team and whoever their opposition is - and that's assuming any of them are actually bothered about it. Youngsters these days are far more open minded than their parents/grumpy old people like us, and I'm willing to bet (without evidence, of course), that most of them couldn't care less as long as their teammate is a decent person and handy with a football. |
“far more open minded than their parents/grumpy old people like us”
Speak for yourself - some of us seniors haven’t had character changes since our teens and twenties, are still open minded, voted Remain, still vote Labour etc! | |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 15:05 - May 5 with 129 views | DJR |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 11:54 - May 5 by lowhouseblue |
also lord sumption's point, which djr refers to, is at best unclear. true, organisations are not compelled to segregate facilities on the basis of biological sex, but the equality act does not provide any exemptions which would allow for segregation on any other basis. so saying that facilities or teams etc are open to women and trans women but not open to other biological males, for example, would in all likelihood be held to be discriminatory under the equality act.
so i think you are right that sporting bodies have had little choice but to point to the ruling, and indeed the preliminary ehrc guidance, rather than to take something of an flyer on lord sumption's untested musings on radio 4. |
I rather doubt the distinguished lawyer Lord Sumption will get over the humiliation of having his comments described as musings. But he will have to lump it and bow to your superior knowledge.
As it is, Refuge has said that it will continue offering its services to trans women. Of course, it could have decided to use the Supreme Court ruling to stop doing so, but has chosen not to, as I believe it is entitled to do so.
[Post edited 5 May 15:37]
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 15:39 - May 5 with 98 views | lowhouseblue |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 15:05 - May 5 by DJR |
I rather doubt the distinguished lawyer Lord Sumption will get over the humiliation of having his comments described as musings. But he will have to lump it and bow to your superior knowledge.
As it is, Refuge has said that it will continue offering its services to trans women. Of course, it could have decided to use the Supreme Court ruling to stop doing so, but has chosen not to, as I believe it is entitled to do so.
[Post edited 5 May 15:37]
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i'm sure he will. but has there been much legal support for sumption's take and has there been an answer to the fact that the equality act doesn't provide any exemptions for denying access to things other than on the basis of biological sex? i assume it will all be tested at some point, but simply ignoring the supreme court decision and the ehrc guidance may well be a problem. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 16:17 - May 5 with 79 views | DJR |
| The FA have banned trans women from women’s football on 15:39 - May 5 by lowhouseblue |
i'm sure he will. but has there been much legal support for sumption's take and has there been an answer to the fact that the equality act doesn't provide any exemptions for denying access to things other than on the basis of biological sex? i assume it will all be tested at some point, but simply ignoring the supreme court decision and the ehrc guidance may well be a problem. |
I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually ends up at the European Court of Human Rights.
This from a recent article in Prospect Magazine, although I imagine there may be other grounds.
"There are also concerns that the Supreme Court ruling may be incompatible with the decision of the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) which led to the creation of the GRA in 2004. This is because the European court held that the placing of trans people in an “intermediate zone”, where they are treated as having a different sex for different purposes, was unacceptable and a violation of human rights. It could be argued that the recent ruling has returned many trans people to this state of limbo. The Good Law Project, a legal campaign group, has created a “fighting fund” to attempt to challenge the new interpretation of the Equality Act all the way to the ECtHR."
Indeed, I have seen criticism that the Supreme Court didn't use its powers under section 3 of the Human Rights Act when interpreting the definition of woman in the Equality Act.
This is section 3(1), the relevant provision.
"Interpretation of legislation.
3. (1) So far as it is possible to do so, primary legislation and subordinate legislation must be read and given effect in a way which is compatible with the Convention rights."
[Post edited 5 May 16:31]
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