| 1961-62 season formation 12:30 - May 20 with 1243 views | TractorFrog |
Does anyone know anything about the formation and tactics deployed by Alf Ramsay in the 1962 First Division title winning season?
I know it’s approximately a 4-3-3
Roy Bailey
Billy Baxter
Larry Carberry
John Compton
Andy Nelson
Jimmy Leadbitter
John Elsworthy
Roy Stephenson
Ray Crawford
Doug Moran
Ted Phillips
Does anyone have any more detail (e.g. who were the centre-backs and the full-backs, what was their role actually like compared to now, how were the midfield and strikers set up etc?) |  |
| They'd all laugh at me if they knew what I was trying to do. To create a new strain of super-wine in half-an-hour with a fraction of nature's resources and a FOOL for an assistant. 'Bernard Black, he's mad,' they'd say, 'he's insane, he's dangerous.' Well I'll show them! I'll show them all! | | Poll: | Who should start in CM with Cajuste? |
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| 1961-62 season formation on 12:36 - May 20 with 1220 views | jasondozzell |
I think I remember my granddad saying we were 'wingless wonders' - as in Alf changed how the game was played with us, with wingers inside in midfield rather than on the wings. I guess Pep's inverted wingers way before Pep was around!
He also said Ted Phillips had the hardest shot ever. Would take goalkeeper into the net with it. |  | | |
| 1961-62 season formation on 12:46 - May 20 with 1189 views | mellowblue |
I could be wrong as I was a foetus for most of that season, but didn't teams play a 2-3-5 in those days which is why Hungary ripped England to shreds once. I am not sure if Ramsey's "wingless wonders" England system was in place then. Leadbitter and Stephenson were wingers so I suspect not. I would be interested to know as well. |  | | |
| 1961-62 season formation on 13:10 - May 20 with 1145 views | Swansea_Blue |
Amazing to think that at that time the 442 formation had only just made an appearance a few years earlier at most. I’ve no idea how we shaped up though (apart from the wingless wonders moniker but don’t know when that came in). |  |
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| 1961-62 season formation on 13:33 - May 20 with 1084 views | Pinewoodblue |
Just asked Google AI, received this response
Ipswich Town, Alf Ramsey primarily used a 4-1-3-2 formation, which he later famously employed with England. This system, dubbed the "wingless wonders," involved a narrow setup with a packed, direct midfield, as seen in the World Cup final. While this was his main formation, he also sometimes used a 4-3-3 formation with more width, especially against weaker opposition.
Probably from Wiki |  |
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| 1961-62 season formation on 13:52 - May 20 with 1008 views | Sibelius8 |
Bailey in goal was a solid shot-stopper and commanding the the box, unafraid of diving at opposing forward's feet.
The two central defenders were Andy Nelson - hard-as-nails and an a commanding presence - and Billy Baxter, short for a centre back but he could out-jump many a tall attacker - tough too, he would never shirk a tackle.
Carberry, a Liverpudlian, was an efficient right back. Compton, on the left, was quick and skilful. I believe that Sir Alf converted him from a winger to a full back?
Elsworthy was one of the best midfield players Town have ever had. A brilliant passer of the ball, he dominated the middle of the park during most matches that year. He was backed up bu Doug Moran, also talented. These two players were the engine room of the midfiels. On the right was Roy Stephenson, far more of a conventional winger than a midfield player. On the left was Leadbetter, a withdrawn winger. Opposing right backs were confused by having nobody to mark. (In those days there was no TV and it took a whole season for other teams to work out Sir Alf's tactics)
Upfront, Ted Phillips and Ray Crawford worked in tandem. It's true Phillips had the hardest shot. I will never forget standing behind the goal in the Churchmans end when a shot from Phillips went straight through the net, hitting the top of the small wall behind with an almighty thwack! Phillips used to shoot often and many of Crawford's goals were scored by him following up on the goalie. | | | |
| 1961-62 season formation on 14:14 - May 20 with 959 views | TractorFrog |
| 1961-62 season formation on 13:52 - May 20 by Sibelius8 |
Bailey in goal was a solid shot-stopper and commanding the the box, unafraid of diving at opposing forward's feet.
The two central defenders were Andy Nelson - hard-as-nails and an a commanding presence - and Billy Baxter, short for a centre back but he could out-jump many a tall attacker - tough too, he would never shirk a tackle.
Carberry, a Liverpudlian, was an efficient right back. Compton, on the left, was quick and skilful. I believe that Sir Alf converted him from a winger to a full back?
Elsworthy was one of the best midfield players Town have ever had. A brilliant passer of the ball, he dominated the middle of the park during most matches that year. He was backed up bu Doug Moran, also talented. These two players were the engine room of the midfiels. On the right was Roy Stephenson, far more of a conventional winger than a midfield player. On the left was Leadbetter, a withdrawn winger. Opposing right backs were confused by having nobody to mark. (In those days there was no TV and it took a whole season for other teams to work out Sir Alf's tactics)
Upfront, Ted Phillips and Ray Crawford worked in tandem. It's true Phillips had the hardest shot. I will never forget standing behind the goal in the Churchmans end when a shot from Phillips went straight through the net, hitting the top of the small wall behind with an almighty thwack! Phillips used to shoot often and many of Crawford's goals were scored by him following up on the goalie. |
Thank you very much, this is really interesting and exactly what I was hoping for.
Where you describe Carberry and Compton as right and left backs, was that in a more modern sense and very unusual at the time? Like mellowblue I thought 2-3-5 was most common at that time so was surprised to see four defenders in the starting eleven.
That point about no TV meaning opposing teams couldn't work out tactics like a withdrawn winger for a whole season is really fascinating, I had never thought of that before. Were there collusions between teams sharing information? I see Ipswich played Burnley twice in August, so you would think Burnley would have been quite keen to get that sort of information to the other managers later in the season. | |
| They'd all laugh at me if they knew what I was trying to do. To create a new strain of super-wine in half-an-hour with a fraction of nature's resources and a FOOL for an assistant. 'Bernard Black, he's mad,' they'd say, 'he's insane, he's dangerous.' Well I'll show them! I'll show them all! | | Poll: | Who should start in CM with Cajuste? |
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| 1961-62 season formation on 14:37 - May 20 with 931 views | Sibelius8 |
| 1961-62 season formation on 14:14 - May 20 by TractorFrog |
Thank you very much, this is really interesting and exactly what I was hoping for.
Where you describe Carberry and Compton as right and left backs, was that in a more modern sense and very unusual at the time? Like mellowblue I thought 2-3-5 was most common at that time so was surprised to see four defenders in the starting eleven.
That point about no TV meaning opposing teams couldn't work out tactics like a withdrawn winger for a whole season is really fascinating, I had never thought of that before. Were there collusions between teams sharing information? I see Ipswich played Burnley twice in August, so you would think Burnley would have been quite keen to get that sort of information to the other managers later in the season. |
From what I remember as a very young lad, our full backs were very much needed for our defence in those days because every team had two wingers. (I was lucky enough to see Stanley Matthews playing for Stoke at Portman Road in those days!)
In those far-off days the only game on TV (mind you, we didn't have one until 1966, like most families) was the FA Cup final. Remember too that telephones were uncommon. There was a telephone in only one house in my street (Lacey Street) I recall! So, it's no wonder that the passing of information could be slow in those days. However, the importance of newspapers was paramount then - more than most youngsters today can imagine I would guess.
In those days it was common to play teams twice in a few days: one team at the start of the season, one around Xmas and one around Easter. We played Burnley away and drew, I recall, then beat them 62 at Portman Road. Burnley were a top team then having won the league in 1960 and runners-up the previous season. Tottenham and Burnley were red hot favourites to win both league and cup in 1961-2. | | | |
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| 1961-62 season formation on 14:37 - May 20 with 930 views | blueislander |
| 1961-62 season formation on 14:14 - May 20 by TractorFrog |
Thank you very much, this is really interesting and exactly what I was hoping for.
Where you describe Carberry and Compton as right and left backs, was that in a more modern sense and very unusual at the time? Like mellowblue I thought 2-3-5 was most common at that time so was surprised to see four defenders in the starting eleven.
That point about no TV meaning opposing teams couldn't work out tactics like a withdrawn winger for a whole season is really fascinating, I had never thought of that before. Were there collusions between teams sharing information? I see Ipswich played Burnley twice in August, so you would think Burnley would have been quite keen to get that sort of information to the other managers later in the season. |
I was fortunate to be a regular at Portman Road in those days, and can confirm that is a pretty accurate description of the way the team was set up. Stephenson wasvery much an old school winger. Moran was basically a third striker. The full backs were defenders before anything else.This line up was available for virtually every game. | | | |
| 1961-62 season formation on 14:47 - May 20 with 899 views | mutters |
| 1961-62 season formation on 13:33 - May 20 by Pinewoodblue |
Just asked Google AI, received this response
Ipswich Town, Alf Ramsey primarily used a 4-1-3-2 formation, which he later famously employed with England. This system, dubbed the "wingless wonders," involved a narrow setup with a packed, direct midfield, as seen in the World Cup final. While this was his main formation, he also sometimes used a 4-3-3 formation with more width, especially against weaker opposition.
Probably from Wiki |
That's the formation I use in CM 01/02.
Pretty damn powerful |  |
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| 1961-62 season formation on 14:58 - May 20 with 869 views | oldburian |
| 1961-62 season formation on 14:37 - May 20 by blueislander |
I was fortunate to be a regular at Portman Road in those days, and can confirm that is a pretty accurate description of the way the team was set up. Stephenson wasvery much an old school winger. Moran was basically a third striker. The full backs were defenders before anything else.This line up was available for virtually every game. |
We were also very lucky on the injury front using, if I remember correctly, just sixteen players. Compton came in early after an injury to Kenny Malcolm the previous season. Dermot Curtis replaced any injured forward, Reg Picket and Aled Owen played about four games between them whilst Wilf Hall capably covered for Roy Bailey five times. I also believe Doug Millward appeared once but in a League Cup match. Times were different in those days even with the ball, rarely was it changed, if it went out of play you waited for it to be returned. Too expensive to waste!
Jimmy Leadbetter was a thinner Scottish Arnold Meurhen. | | | |
| 1961-62 season formation on 17:55 - May 20 with 767 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| 1961-62 season formation on 14:14 - May 20 by TractorFrog |
Thank you very much, this is really interesting and exactly what I was hoping for.
Where you describe Carberry and Compton as right and left backs, was that in a more modern sense and very unusual at the time? Like mellowblue I thought 2-3-5 was most common at that time so was surprised to see four defenders in the starting eleven.
That point about no TV meaning opposing teams couldn't work out tactics like a withdrawn winger for a whole season is really fascinating, I had never thought of that before. Were there collusions between teams sharing information? I see Ipswich played Burnley twice in August, so you would think Burnley would have been quite keen to get that sort of information to the other managers later in the season. |
Yes, very interesting. Presumably there was nothing stopping clubs sending scouts to watch matches but perhaps it just wasn't a thing then.
I recall my Grandad saying something about other fans claiming corruption etc for how Town managed to do it. Some things never change (although of course the accusation is that the bias is against us instead of for us when it isn't going well). |  |
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| 1961-62 season formation on 18:14 - May 20 with 717 views | WeWereZombies |
Thanks, a good read, that.
On the question of other teams not working us out due to there being no televised games I am doubtful. As well as scouts I think managers would send their assistants or other staff to watch the opposition the week before they played them, an informal information exchange must have existed if only for gambling purposes. |  |
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| 1961-62 season formation on 21:30 - May 20 with 602 views | Bluespeed225 |
| 1961-62 season formation on 12:46 - May 20 by mellowblue |
I could be wrong as I was a foetus for most of that season, but didn't teams play a 2-3-5 in those days which is why Hungary ripped England to shreds once. I am not sure if Ramsey's "wingless wonders" England system was in place then. Leadbitter and Stephenson were wingers so I suspect not. I would be interested to know as well. |
That Hungary game had Ramsey at full back! Think it was his last game and obviously left an indelible mark. It also did with the much talked about, though wholly overhyped, West Ham ‘Academy’, a bunch of young players and apprentices who would talk football in cafes with journalist from the nearby Fleet Street. These included Ken Brown, Malcolm Allison and Noel Cantwell. Hungary changed the landscape over the two games, modernising football. Ramsey took note. I always like to think the World Cup win was designed on the practice pitch at Portman Road. | | | |
| 1961-62 season formation on 21:50 - May 20 with 582 views | Sibelius8 |
| 1961-62 season formation on 18:14 - May 20 by WeWereZombies |
Thanks, a good read, that.
On the question of other teams not working us out due to there being no televised games I am doubtful. As well as scouts I think managers would send their assistants or other staff to watch the opposition the week before they played them, an informal information exchange must have existed if only for gambling purposes. |
Of course, scouts were sent everywhere, as a matter of course, with any football club, and there was much exchange of information as a result. I was just making the point that nowadays analysis is instant, thanks to TV and media's modern and tenacious grasp on our lives. Not so in yesteryear; it was a completely different world.
Also, the gambling rules were very different then. It was illegal to place any bet on football. (There was an exception, I believe, for the cup final.) Bookies were strictly for horses and greyhounds only. For most, there was the "pools". Nearly every working man would fill in a pools coupon in the 60s. A few, very few, fortunes were made - but it was great fun to be just a draw away from a win!
Glad you find us old'uns' reminiscences a good read, Thanks. TWTD indeed. | | | |
| 1961-62 season formation on 21:52 - May 20 with 577 views | monty_radio |
In support of and addition to what other oldies have said, Rocky Stephenson, who I believe had played as an inside right before he joined Town, but, in my memory, operated as an out-and-out Right Winger. It was left-footed Jimmy Leadbetter that was Alf's innovation, withdrawn to play just behind the two strikers, a proto No 10 in today's lingo.
Bill Baxter only played Centre-Half later in the sixties when we won the Division under McGarry. For Alf, he was a right-sided midfielder, fairly defensively orientated. The full backs were under the same instruction as I was, playing full back in Primary School. I don't imagine though that Alf actually gave them a clip round the ear if they ventured over the halfway line as was the case with the teacher who took us for football. [Post edited 21 May 19:20]
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| 1961-62 season formation on 15:59 - May 21 with 246 views | solemio |
Ted Phillips's weight of shot has been mentioned. A former friend and colleague of mine was in goal for Harwich & Parkeston in a pre-season friendly against ITFC. Ted Phillips scored a goal where my friend said it went so quickly that he didn't even move to try to save it. He was glad that he didn't get in the way of it. It made a hole in the net!
Yes, Sir Alf always said that Ted had the hardest shot he ever saw and Alf managed Bobby Charlton! | | | |
| 1961-62 season formation on 17:23 - May 21 with 198 views | Radlett_blue |
| 1961-62 season formation on 14:14 - May 20 by TractorFrog |
Thank you very much, this is really interesting and exactly what I was hoping for.
Where you describe Carberry and Compton as right and left backs, was that in a more modern sense and very unusual at the time? Like mellowblue I thought 2-3-5 was most common at that time so was surprised to see four defenders in the starting eleven.
That point about no TV meaning opposing teams couldn't work out tactics like a withdrawn winger for a whole season is really fascinating, I had never thought of that before. Were there collusions between teams sharing information? I see Ipswich played Burnley twice in August, so you would think Burnley would have been quite keen to get that sort of information to the other managers later in the season. |
teams might have been listed in the programme in 2-3-5 formation, but the centre half had become a 3rd defender, operation between the 2 full backs, after the great Herbert Chapman came up with the idea, partly in response to the change in the offside law (you used to need 3 players between you and the goal). This was called the W M formation. Later, the Hungarians developed this into 4-2-4, with one of the forwards dropping back (although wearing number 9 & confusing England, and others). |  |
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| 1961-62 season formation on 19:25 - May 21 with 87 views | Trequartista |
| 1961-62 season formation on 13:52 - May 20 by Sibelius8 |
Bailey in goal was a solid shot-stopper and commanding the the box, unafraid of diving at opposing forward's feet.
The two central defenders were Andy Nelson - hard-as-nails and an a commanding presence - and Billy Baxter, short for a centre back but he could out-jump many a tall attacker - tough too, he would never shirk a tackle.
Carberry, a Liverpudlian, was an efficient right back. Compton, on the left, was quick and skilful. I believe that Sir Alf converted him from a winger to a full back?
Elsworthy was one of the best midfield players Town have ever had. A brilliant passer of the ball, he dominated the middle of the park during most matches that year. He was backed up bu Doug Moran, also talented. These two players were the engine room of the midfiels. On the right was Roy Stephenson, far more of a conventional winger than a midfield player. On the left was Leadbetter, a withdrawn winger. Opposing right backs were confused by having nobody to mark. (In those days there was no TV and it took a whole season for other teams to work out Sir Alf's tactics)
Upfront, Ted Phillips and Ray Crawford worked in tandem. It's true Phillips had the hardest shot. I will never forget standing behind the goal in the Churchmans end when a shot from Phillips went straight through the net, hitting the top of the small wall behind with an almighty thwack! Phillips used to shoot often and many of Crawford's goals were scored by him following up on the goalie. |
If you push Enciso up front alongside Delap, that's pretty much our formation now! |  |
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