| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! 14:31 - Jun 16 with 4080 views | tonybied |
Sorry, this is going to be a long read! I posted on her previously concerning getting outbid on a property as FTBs, and the pain it had caused. We since found somewhere else theat we really liked (we haven't allowed ourselves to fall in love after our previous experience though!)
We're pretty far down the line with our purchase. Exchange could well be on the horizon soon as the vendor has messaged me to see how we're doing (not confirmed, but I suspect they're ready to plan exchange on their purchase), and we now need to make the decision on whether to go ahead or not.
Things started off nice and smoothly but survey results and local authority search came back at the beginning of last week, and we started to panic. No planning or building regs for a porch rear extension and structural wall removal in the kitchen. I asked our surveyor to pay attention to these, as even before we had received the search results, we had already asked our solicitor to raise enquiries regarding the works because they had filled in that there were no alterations on the TA6! These enquiries were not answered straight away compared to most of the other initial enquiries. This is where we first started to feel a little skittish.Our solicitor stated it probably the case that they didn't get planning/regs and that they were probably going to offer an indemnity, which is not totally unusual.
Survey time - The vendors told our surveyor that the work on the extension (now starting to be referred to as a lean to!) in 2000 and the porch in 2002. There was no date given for the removal of the kitchen wall. The surveyor obviously wouldn't commit too much on the works as he can't see the buried work, but he was otherwise positive about the standard of what he could see. He even stating that the lack of paperwork probably wouldn't put him off if he was purchasing it himself, and commented along the same line as our solicitor, that this is more common than most people think.
We got the local authority search back about a day later, which showed no planning has been applied for for anything and that nothing was showing building regs-wise, since a boiler replacement in 2014, when it was still a council owned property. All this started to raise my Spidey senses, and I decided to go back through paperwork and do some more investigating. I then spotted something else in the TA6 that didn't occur to me, as at the point of recieving the TA6 we'd only had our initial viewing with the EA. We went for a second viewing and the vendor and her partner facilitated this viewing. The TA6 stated she was alone in the property but the partner told us he's been living there with her for 20+ years. Our solicitor said that they'd raise an enquiry for confirmation that all tenants would leave the property at completion but more distrust starting to form!
I started to ponder more and thought, I could possibly believe the extension had been in place since 2000, but the porch looked too modern to be 23 years old. So I then thought I'd take to Google Earth to study when these structures became apparent. The extension appears on Google Earth sometimes around 2017-18 and the porch is seemingly built in 2021! Jeez, distrust level is now defcon 5! After speaking with the surveyor and solicitor they calmed us down and kept pushing the line that this is common and the solicitor didn't seem to be too fussed about the lies, stating that work is "set to structure after 10 years" meaning the authorities are extremely unlikely to chase any retrospective planning/regs. Solicitor said they'd understand if we'd lost trust in the vendor and wanted to pull out but that they didn't feel it added much more risk to us. We started to think that it must just be FTB nervousness kicking in and we should just carry on as we really like the house.
Fast forward to today. Vendor messages to inform their solicitor has replied to all enquiries raised and that they're just waiting on our end. Our solicitor then sent us through the answers they'd been provided with. They' ve claimed again that work was done in 2000 and 2002, and that planning was not required, no answer to building regs sign off. Our solicitor has gone back again asking for evidence that planning/building regs are not required. Not only that , the last straw that's kind of pushed us back into complete distrust and on the verge of pulling the pin again. The vendor has pushed back and refused to even get an indemnity policy to cover their failings.
We also requested our broker to check for rates with our lender this weekend, which are now a bit better, so our broker has said he'll ask the lender to sort this. I have told the vendor this and informed them that it could be a couple of weeks for this to be sorted. That means we have a bit of thinking time at least.
We're really unsure where to go with this now. Our solicitor provided a quote for the indemnity and has asked if we want to buy the cover. It's £115, so nothing in the grand scheme of things but it's more the principle of it than the cost. They fcked up, they lied and now they want us to pay to cover that fck up.
Are we being FTB faries again and do we need to wind our necks in? Or should we run for the hills? As I previously mentioned we really like the property, there hasn't been anything come to market since that is as suitable, and the properties we bid on before this we were priced out of the bidding rather quickly. Head is thinking there are too many reg flags here, but heart is saying the advice so far has been that they're nothing to be too flustered by and that we like the place so binning it off for lies that would likely not effect us too much and a fairly cheap indemnity.
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| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 12:05 - Jun 18 with 451 views | Rozz |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 11:40 - Jun 18 by Herbivore |
Generally, the older the house, the more potential issues there are to find. Not just in terms of building work that's been carried out, but also stuff like old covenants (you may discover that people are allowed to graze sheep on your lawn on the third Sunday of every month, for example).
There will also invariably have been shoddy DIY carried out on the house at some point and a survey won't always pick this up. We discovered our en suite shower was plumbed in with a plastic funnel when we replaced it. That caused our fitter much amusement. In our first house, the bathroom had been moved at some point and the waste pipe ran the length of the house (over 10m) under the floorboards, which caused no end of issues. This isn't the kind of stuff a survey picks up but is stuff that might cause you problems down the line.
Partly, it's the nature of buying an older house. They come with a lot of character but also with potential problems. A house that is entirely perfect is a rare thing, so don't necessarily be put off when your survey comes back with some red sections and plenty of amber. Take time to read and digest it, think about what really does need addressing and what it might cost, and what is stuff that doesn't matter so much or will be easy to rectify. Ultimately, it tends to come down to how much you want the house versus the number of issues it may come with and that's always a tricky thing to weigh up. |
Funnily enough, no grazing sheep but it does have a legal right of way through our garden for the neighbouring property to take out garden waste. I thought this was very odd but common in terraces of the era apparently.
Re your last paragraph, the agent very softly indicated that was why the last sale fell through. It sounded as if the buyer wasn't realistic about the age of the property and the issues that might be highlighted on the survey. He seemed to think it would benefit us mentioning we wouldn't chase small costs for repairs, but "if it needs a new roof, then it needs a new roof".
I'm imagining there'll some damp given the solid walls, up-sloping garden and adjacent alleyway which is shaded. Seemed fine on our visit, but it's not been a wet spring.
There's an upstairs shower room that's been carved out of one of the bedrooms that could very well have some funky plumbing as you describe. Quite a few lighting cables run directly on beams, etc.. I quite fancy getting stuck into all of that myself, to be honest! |  | | |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 12:06 - Jun 18 with 447 views | itfcjoe |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 08:10 - Jun 18 by Churchman |
I don’t know how consistent Building Regs are across the country, but I do know some inspectors are more fussy than others.
A few years ago I had my kitchen extended into half of a full length garage plus other work. This obviously needed an RSJ for a load bearing wall. The plans, pages of them, were submitted to Sevenoaks Council. All approved.
They wanted the work inspected at various stages. Fine. The first chap wanted to see the steel, make sure it met regs, fireproofed etc, chatted to the builder, looked again at the plans, all good
Towards the end of the build another dude did the inspecting. He looked at everything in minute detail from alarms, electrics, building materials, drain pipe configurations/angles, fireproofing the doors. He visited a number of times before he signed it off. Beyond fussy. But it was signed off so when it’s sold, the paperwork is all there.
Retrospectively, I know permissions can be granted. Whether they have to dig in and see what the build actually is, I don’t know. What I do know is that in the past they could insist a structure was taken down. I suspect with relaxation of planning laws it’s a bit more do what you like.
However, even if it is the latter, I’d still want work signed off properly and if say planning permission wasn’t necessary, confirmation in writing. Houses cost huge sums of money. You need to not only be sure when you buy, but know you have everything right for when you sell. |
If there is no real info on it then going to be a struggle to sign things off retrospectively.
If my firm misses an inspection, then local building inspectors will probably be ok - we photo most of our work, are known to them, known to be honest and good quality etc.
Recently we've picked up one which has been done by a cowboy, we've had to expose so much of the build to get sign off for the client - and that had started the process and had regs in place....they just didn't build it to them so we have had to make good huge areas of it to get it over the line.
With no regs in initial application, to get it signed off will be incredibly difficult |  |
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| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 12:12 - Jun 18 with 434 views | Rozz |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 11:52 - Jun 18 by Zx1988 |
On top of what Herbivore says, make sure to have a chat with your surveyor after you've read and digested the report.
The RICS Home Survey Standard mandates these conversations. I proactively call my clients a few days after the report has gone out, but don't be afraid to instigate this yourself.
This can be really useful when trying to get a better understanding of CR2/CR3 elements. The RICS templates are incredibly inflexible, and one CR3 level issue will force the entire element to be flagged at CR3 (immediate attention required).
Take windows, for example. I could find a number of minor defects (failed seals, misted units, a defective handle, some gaps to the sealant etc.,) which would all be CR2, but one major defect (a single severely rotten frame, for example) will be enough to present the entire piece as a CR3.
Similarly, there can be different reasons for a CR3 ranging from 'further investigation required' (no test certificates for 'services that kill' for instance), to 'fix this yesterday' (leaking roof), to 'this is a major health and safety risk' (i.e. non-safety glazing at low level at the bottom of a staircase).
A lot of agents, quite justifiably, get angry about a surfeit of CR3s killing a sale with a twitchy buyer, but oftentimes this will be a poor surveyor just dumping the report, and not taking the time to talk the client through it all. |
Thanks for the advice, this is very useful to know.
I think as my post above, we're expecting that there will be some issues that are presented badly in the report and sound worse than they perhaps could be.
Might revert back to this thread for advice if there's anything too scary! | | | |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 16:56 - Jun 18 with 304 views | OldFart71 |
What sort of survey did you have, was it just a home buyers survey because it may be that it is advisable to have a full survey. Will obviously cost more to you.
I wouldn't worry about the situation regarding who has been living in the house and for how long. It may be that she was claiming some sort of benefit that meant she was supposed to be on her own. But that's not your problem. Do you know if they are joint mortgage holders or is she just on the mortgage. Doesn't really matter who is on the mortgage or owns it outright as long as one or both sign off the sale. |  | | |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 17:04 - Jun 18 with 296 views | Zx1988 |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 16:56 - Jun 18 by OldFart71 |
What sort of survey did you have, was it just a home buyers survey because it may be that it is advisable to have a full survey. Will obviously cost more to you.
I wouldn't worry about the situation regarding who has been living in the house and for how long. It may be that she was claiming some sort of benefit that meant she was supposed to be on her own. But that's not your problem. Do you know if they are joint mortgage holders or is she just on the mortgage. Doesn't really matter who is on the mortgage or owns it outright as long as one or both sign off the sale. |
With the issues that OP has described, there would be no real difference in utility between a Level 2 (HomeBuyers) survey, and a Level 3 (Building Survey or, in even older money, Structural Survey).
Neither of them allow for the opening up of the structure, so a L3 wouldn't move OP any further forwards in getting clarity on the issue of the removed wall. | |
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| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 17:28 - Jun 18 with 273 views | football |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 16:38 - Jun 17 by MJallday |
then it entirely depends how risk averse you are.
personally, if i was spending (i assume) a 6 figure amount on something , id like to know it was 100% tip top and everything was explainable. wouldnt you?
im afraid only you can answer this |
Down to the individual but if you want legal confirmation there is a cost and a time implication of eight weeks plus
I would not do this, but purely due to my profession and I can make those judgements | | | |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 17:29 - Jun 18 with 272 views | football |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 17:43 - Jun 17 by TVRBlue |
My understanding relating to the building regulations matters is that any work that includes structural alterations, such as the removal of internal structural (load-bearing) walls, will require approval under the building regulations.
As part of the process building control will require structural calculations to have been prepared by a suitably qualified structural engineer and for this information to be submitted as part of the building regulations process. The structural calcs will be checked for compliance and will be referenced within the building regulations approval granted.
During the works, the building control officer will carry out site visits at certain stages through the construction phase and will certainly wish to inspect the installation of the steelwork to ensure the correct sized beam(s) and any required support (structural posts and/or padstones) have been installed correctly. Furthermore, any structural steelwork supporting structure above should be suitably fire-protected. Again, this would be checked by the building control officer during the construction phase.
I don't know the house in question but if the wall(s) removed is, or was, a structurally load-bearing wall and the owner/seller of the property carried out the work without securing approval under the building regulations, then I'm not sure that property would be for me personally.
But we're all different and hopefully the OP will be comfortable when making their final decision. However, as one or two others have said, just a reduction in the offer price for the property might not be adequate financially to repair the property should it be found necessary to do so. Furthermore, I wonder if any insurance taken out on the building by the new owner (the OP - should he/she buy it) would be valid if it was shown it was known the works carried out was done so without building regs approval.
Apologies for long reply. |
I do not disagree, but if it is more than four years ago it is exempt regardless | | | |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 21:45 - Jun 18 with 215 views | TVRBlue |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 17:29 - Jun 18 by football |
I do not disagree, but if it is more than four years ago it is exempt regardless |
It may be exempt if the works are over four years old.
However, the fact that the works may have been carried out more than four years ago doesn't provide the proposed purchaser (the OP) with any peace of mind that the works have been carried out competently.
The fact that there is no record of any building regulations submission, approval document, or completion certificate for the works, together with the vendor's 'vagueness' about providing answers to the prospective purchaser of his/her/their property, would set alarm bells off for me - whether the matter is exempt or not. [Post edited 18 Jun 21:49]
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| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 22:01 - Jun 18 with 199 views | redrickstuhaart |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 21:45 - Jun 18 by TVRBlue |
It may be exempt if the works are over four years old.
However, the fact that the works may have been carried out more than four years ago doesn't provide the proposed purchaser (the OP) with any peace of mind that the works have been carried out competently.
The fact that there is no record of any building regulations submission, approval document, or completion certificate for the works, together with the vendor's 'vagueness' about providing answers to the prospective purchaser of his/her/their property, would set alarm bells off for me - whether the matter is exempt or not. [Post edited 18 Jun 21:49]
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Thats the point. Indemnity insurance for failures in documentation are commonplace and not a massive deal.
The issue is whether you are confident of the work and how significant it might be. In theory surveyor's opinion addresses that. In practice, many surveys are a tickbox exercise Im afraid. | | | |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 00:12 - Jun 19 with 159 views | Ryorry |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 22:01 - Jun 18 by redrickstuhaart |
Thats the point. Indemnity insurance for failures in documentation are commonplace and not a massive deal.
The issue is whether you are confident of the work and how significant it might be. In theory surveyor's opinion addresses that. In practice, many surveys are a tickbox exercise Im afraid. |
“Full structural survey” is a laughable ‘description’ - in fact a complete contradiction in terms when the surveyors contracted aren’t even allowed to lift the carpets, let alone stick a knife into skirting boards to test for rot, as a builder friend of my ex’s did (actually he used an old style car key which went straight through).
Unfortunately that was after we’d exchanged and after we’d got the ‘full structural survey’ which said the place was all sound - if we’d known beforehand we’d have asked for £10K off the price we paid - the remedial work for all the wet rot cost £15k and that was1980s prices. |  |
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| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 07:35 - Jun 19 with 82 views | tonybied |
| More house buying woes - Any advice would be appreicaited! on 10:32 - Jun 18 by Meadowlark |
I have no advice to give, but having read through the complete thread (so far) this shows the TWTD forum at its best! Some really helpful, inciteful advice from experts and those that have experienced similar situations. Very interesting too. Well done TWTD "fanbase!"
To the OP I hope you make the right decision, whatever that may be, and I guess all I would say to the OP is don't let anyone rush you. |
I must echo this, thanks all for your opinions and knowledge. Its been helpful, not just for the insight but knowing we're not alone in our plight!
This place is ace, love you all. Yes, even you miserable sods that frequent the place and wind me up, from time to time. X | | | |
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