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Casey report on grooming gangs on 09:35 - Jun 17 by Bluecoin
Teachers turned their backs on victims. There was a survivor on the radio talking about it yesterday. The department of education at the highest level are involved in the cover ups. It's going to be uncomfortable to hear, but it all needs to come out. And it wiil.
Let's see. Like I said "there will be a few who could have acted differently (specifically with regard to believing and helping victims . . .)"
My original point still stands.
[Post edited 17 Jun 9:38]
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Casey report on grooming gangs on 09:48 - Jun 17 with 1492 views
Casey report on grooming gangs on 09:36 - Jun 17 by Swansea_Blue
Good point. It reflects the attitude to the working class and poor generally. Sneering and belittling them rather than listening to them.
Another point is the communities these men come from are appalled at what’s happened. A filmmaker on the radio just now, who originally exposed the issue, is convinced that the community needs to be given a louder voice and that would help stem the racism aimed the whole communities’ way. The racism makes it very difficult for them to speak up, so a bit of a vicious circle there.
Sneered at, like some people did to a certain northern man (with a funny accent) who raised Muslim rape gangs over a decade ago? Like that kind of sneering?
That aged really well, didn't it.
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Casey report on grooming gangs on 09:55 - Jun 17 with 1472 views
Casey report on grooming gangs on 07:49 - Jun 17 by Herbivore
The purpose of an inquiry is to do a deep dive into what happened, what went wrong, and what lessons can be learnt. It's purpose is not and should not be to throw some red meat to a baying crowd and to "name and shame" anyone who had any involvement in these tragic cases.
I'm also not sure we should be advocating for throwing anyone in prison for not doing their jobs well enough, especially when many of those individuals are working in broken systems. If anyone is genuinely criminally complicit in what happened, either through deliberate comission of acts or through criminal levels of negligence, then fair enough, but that's unlikely to be the case, certainly not for many of those involved. We already struggle to recruit and retain enough teachers and social workers to meet demand (not sure about police), how many people do you think are going to be attracted to jobs where real wages have plummeted over the last 20 years when it also comes with the threat of being banged up if you make a mistake?
Many of the victims don't want an inquiry, although many also do. I doubt many of them want people other than the perpetrators of abuse to be locked up. Certainly everyone I've seen spoken to wants lessons to be learnt so stuff like this can't happen in future. Whether you can entirely stop criminal behaviour is another matter but for sure, things can and must get better.
On a similar tangent though, the financial crisis of 2009 and the austerity policies that followed led to nearly 200k excess deaths in the UK. Nearly 200k people that died who didn't need to because of the actions of bankers who gambled with people's lives and countries' economies, 200k mostly vulnerable people who died because of policy choices made by the Tory/Lib coalition, many of which did not protect society's most vulnerable. I haven't seen you calling for all of those bankers or politicians to be locked up, despite them being culpable for something close to a genocide. I wonder why.
For me, "not doing your job" properly, whether that is someone in social services, education or the criminal justice system should have consequences obviously that will vary hugely dependent on the circumstances.
But what I am talking about is way more, it is deciding to prosecute, to criminalise innocent people. That is tantamount to a miscarriage of justice for people who were vulnerable victims.
Home sec has talked about ensuring removal of the criminal records, but I'd like to see way more. Those who knew children were being cautioned and failed to speak out have shown themselves to be complicit in actions that not only saw perpetrators carry on, they made the suffering far worse.
The victims were not only not believed, they were themselves treated as criminals. Heaven knows the damage that does over the abuse they were suffering.
Is it really good enough to "learn lessons" on its own? Where are the consequences for those who let them down?
We are utterly hopeless at holding people in positions of power to account in the UK. You only have to consider Grenfell to see that.
Casey report on grooming gangs on 08:03 - Jun 17 by Herbivore
Agreed on the Badenoch stuff and also agree that changing your mind when new information comes to light is a good thing. It's admirable in fact to pivot when the evidence points elsewhere. But with Starmer's major u-turns, I'm not sure that's the case. We don't really know anything now about either the grooming gang scandal or about winter fuel payments to pensioners that we didn't know when he made his original decisions. He's changed his mind because of political pressure and not because of changing circumstances. The Tories frequently did the same in their chaotic last 5 years from Johnson onwards. It's not a great way to govern.
[Post edited 17 Jun 8:04]
I think, and thought, that it's right to remove the winter fuel allowance for many, but agreed at the time that the threshold should be a bit higher. So I'm glad they've changed that. With the grooming gang scandal I don't know enough about it to know if a new enquiry is the right way to go, but from reports from the victims (who matter more than anyone) - they're split. Many welcome it, many think another one's not necessary, so Starmer's going to have critics whichever way he goes.
You say he's changed his mind because of political pressure, which may well be the case but it seems pretty odd to me. What pressure? The official opposition seem a bit of a busted flush, Farage is all hot air (although a significant number seem to like this at the moment), but either way, a General Election is a long way off. So I'm not sure how much political pressure there actually is. And, of course, you invite pressure by u-turning anyway. So when you break it down, "political pressure" as your reasoning doesn't seem very logical.
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
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Casey report on grooming gangs on 10:23 - Jun 17 with 1390 views
Casey report on grooming gangs on 09:48 - Jun 17 by Bluecoin
Sneered at, like some people did to a certain northern man (with a funny accent) who raised Muslim rape gangs over a decade ago? Like that kind of sneering?
I think, and thought, that it's right to remove the winter fuel allowance for many, but agreed at the time that the threshold should be a bit higher. So I'm glad they've changed that. With the grooming gang scandal I don't know enough about it to know if a new enquiry is the right way to go, but from reports from the victims (who matter more than anyone) - they're split. Many welcome it, many think another one's not necessary, so Starmer's going to have critics whichever way he goes.
You say he's changed his mind because of political pressure, which may well be the case but it seems pretty odd to me. What pressure? The official opposition seem a bit of a busted flush, Farage is all hot air (although a significant number seem to like this at the moment), but either way, a General Election is a long way off. So I'm not sure how much political pressure there actually is. And, of course, you invite pressure by u-turning anyway. So when you break it down, "political pressure" as your reasoning doesn't seem very logical.
I’m not sure on it either. Prof Jay has been highly critical of the lack of action on her recommendations, which seems valid. Baroness Casey rapid report outlines how this inquiry will expand on the remit of Jay’s. Maybe there’s need for both, but maybe this new inquiry will hamper adoption of Jay’s recommendations (Starmer originally said they would address Jay’s recs, but I don’t know if that’s still the case). We’ll see.
I suspect part of the reason for the turn-around by Labour is Casey’s comments around bad faith actors filling the void if we aren’t prepared to have an open and honest discussion around race. Labour may see this as a way to switch off Reform’s angle of attack.
It looks like Casey will be a good person to lead the inquiry anyway, as she’s already publicly and strongly criticising those (e.g. Badenoch) who are seeking to politicise the issue. That’s what’s needed.
Casey report on grooming gangs on 09:35 - Jun 17 by Bluecoin
Teachers turned their backs on victims. There was a survivor on the radio talking about it yesterday. The department of education at the highest level are involved in the cover ups. It's going to be uncomfortable to hear, but it all needs to come out. And it wiil.
Why do we need an inquiry? Seems you've got it sussed if you already know the DfE were involved in covering it all up.
Casey report on grooming gangs on 10:46 - Jun 17 by Bluecoin
Swansea won't be the only one getting selective amnesia over the next few months.
Lucky the Internet has receipts.
I don't think that laughing at an inaudible drunk lad is the gotcha moment you think it is. Personally I think it's sad that he's been manipulated by far-right arseholes to think the best way to vent his frustrations is to get as drunk as he can and disrupt some town centre somewhere.
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Casey report on grooming gangs on 10:54 - Jun 17 with 1237 views
Casey report on grooming gangs on 10:36 - Jun 17 by Swansea_Blue
Very strange behaviour for sure, but I’m not sure if there’s supposed to be a point behind it lol
I think you've somehow upset our new member and protector of the working class, Mr coin.
I look forward to him starting threads on the shocking financial inequality in the UK and the 14.3 million people and 4.2 million children in the UK who live in poverty, any moment now..
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Casey report on grooming gangs on 11:37 - Jun 17 with 1150 views
Casey report on grooming gangs on 07:49 - Jun 17 by Herbivore
The purpose of an inquiry is to do a deep dive into what happened, what went wrong, and what lessons can be learnt. It's purpose is not and should not be to throw some red meat to a baying crowd and to "name and shame" anyone who had any involvement in these tragic cases.
I'm also not sure we should be advocating for throwing anyone in prison for not doing their jobs well enough, especially when many of those individuals are working in broken systems. If anyone is genuinely criminally complicit in what happened, either through deliberate comission of acts or through criminal levels of negligence, then fair enough, but that's unlikely to be the case, certainly not for many of those involved. We already struggle to recruit and retain enough teachers and social workers to meet demand (not sure about police), how many people do you think are going to be attracted to jobs where real wages have plummeted over the last 20 years when it also comes with the threat of being banged up if you make a mistake?
Many of the victims don't want an inquiry, although many also do. I doubt many of them want people other than the perpetrators of abuse to be locked up. Certainly everyone I've seen spoken to wants lessons to be learnt so stuff like this can't happen in future. Whether you can entirely stop criminal behaviour is another matter but for sure, things can and must get better.
On a similar tangent though, the financial crisis of 2009 and the austerity policies that followed led to nearly 200k excess deaths in the UK. Nearly 200k people that died who didn't need to because of the actions of bankers who gambled with people's lives and countries' economies, 200k mostly vulnerable people who died because of policy choices made by the Tory/Lib coalition, many of which did not protect society's most vulnerable. I haven't seen you calling for all of those bankers or politicians to be locked up, despite them being culpable for something close to a genocide. I wonder why.
"through deliberate comission of acts or through criminal levels of negligence"
i'd be surprised if criminality amongst social workers, police officers, council officers etc is discovered. but intentionally or not, that's not setting the right test here. the questions the inquiry will be addressing are: were professional standards ignored, was the negligence such as to make individuals unfit to hold their posts, were public officials incompetent, was the training police officers and social workers received at fault (eg. did it discourage honest investigation when race was involved), did local councillors discourage investigation for political reasons, and was professional leadership lacking and did it encourage teachers and social workers to turn a blind eye? none of that necessarily reaches any level of criminality, but it may be that there were systematic professional failings that need to be exposed and there may well be, now, senior people in those professions, and those who oversee those professions, whose incompetence and biases mean that they shouldn't still be in a responsible job.
[Post edited 17 Jun 12:06]
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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Casey report on grooming gangs on 11:41 - Jun 17 with 1157 views
Casey report on grooming gangs on 08:55 - Jun 17 by Herbivore
But we've known for years that there have been concerns that professional, and particulalry the police, were concerned about accusations of racism. This isn't something that's just come out in the last couple of days. I see the term "cover up" used a lot in relation to this and I find it odd, I can't think of many scandals that we know more about than this one. It's not that we don't know what happened, and we even know quite a lot about why it happened. What hasn't happened enough is trying to make it right and trying to prevent it happening again. I'm not convinced another inquiry will help on that front.
People need to be held accountable. The new enquiry will have more powers I understand to compel people to turn up and be questioned. A good old fashioned witch hunt if you like!
"Blueas is a great guy, one of the best." - Donald Trump
Casey report on grooming gangs on 08:55 - Jun 17 by Herbivore
But we've known for years that there have been concerns that professional, and particulalry the police, were concerned about accusations of racism. This isn't something that's just come out in the last couple of days. I see the term "cover up" used a lot in relation to this and I find it odd, I can't think of many scandals that we know more about than this one. It's not that we don't know what happened, and we even know quite a lot about why it happened. What hasn't happened enough is trying to make it right and trying to prevent it happening again. I'm not convinced another inquiry will help on that front.
Maybe cover up is the wrong phrase but I’m not quite sure what else to call the political establishments wilful disregard of what has been reported for years and, worse than that, labelling anyone who dared to raise the subject bigoted, racist and far right! Now, undoubtedly some were, but there was clearly enough evidence to show there was/is a big problem and Casey makes reference to it being deliberately ignored.
Politicians, police, local councils, all involved in what was/is effectively facilitating child abuse should be the subject of criminal prosecutions, as well as any perpetrators who have escaped prosecution up to now.
As for another public enquiry, the record for these isn’t great, but on this subject I think the genie is finally out of the bottle and we might, finally, get to the root of it. Having said that it very much depends on the terms of reference and who is appointed to run it. I can see a case for bringing in someone from abroad, unconnected with our compromised establishment, but time will tell on that.
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Casey report on grooming gangs on 12:05 - Jun 17 with 1061 views
Casey report on grooming gangs on 11:48 - Jun 17 by RegencyBlue
Maybe cover up is the wrong phrase but I’m not quite sure what else to call the political establishments wilful disregard of what has been reported for years and, worse than that, labelling anyone who dared to raise the subject bigoted, racist and far right! Now, undoubtedly some were, but there was clearly enough evidence to show there was/is a big problem and Casey makes reference to it being deliberately ignored.
Politicians, police, local councils, all involved in what was/is effectively facilitating child abuse should be the subject of criminal prosecutions, as well as any perpetrators who have escaped prosecution up to now.
As for another public enquiry, the record for these isn’t great, but on this subject I think the genie is finally out of the bottle and we might, finally, get to the root of it. Having said that it very much depends on the terms of reference and who is appointed to run it. I can see a case for bringing in someone from abroad, unconnected with our compromised establishment, but time will tell on that.
i don't think it gets as far as a cover up. it was more wishful thinking - as in we all just wish all this would go away. i think for all sorts of politicians it became too hot to touch - they were worried that exposing what went on would lead to social unrest (the oiks would get oiky to put it progressive terms), that councillors from their own party will be exposed as having turned a blind eye to a huge scale of child abuse, that some mps with narrow majorities will suffer (very very sadly i don't think jess phillips, who i like a lot, comes out of this well), and that the best way to promote multi- culturalism is just to ignore anything difficult. they dug their heels in and thought that calling anyone who disagreed a racist would be enough to make it all go away.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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Casey report on grooming gangs on 12:09 - Jun 17 with 1042 views
Casey report on grooming gangs on 11:48 - Jun 17 by RegencyBlue
Maybe cover up is the wrong phrase but I’m not quite sure what else to call the political establishments wilful disregard of what has been reported for years and, worse than that, labelling anyone who dared to raise the subject bigoted, racist and far right! Now, undoubtedly some were, but there was clearly enough evidence to show there was/is a big problem and Casey makes reference to it being deliberately ignored.
Politicians, police, local councils, all involved in what was/is effectively facilitating child abuse should be the subject of criminal prosecutions, as well as any perpetrators who have escaped prosecution up to now.
As for another public enquiry, the record for these isn’t great, but on this subject I think the genie is finally out of the bottle and we might, finally, get to the root of it. Having said that it very much depends on the terms of reference and who is appointed to run it. I can see a case for bringing in someone from abroad, unconnected with our compromised establishment, but time will tell on that.
Its as if the last ten years of people actively acknowledging and reporting that there was reticence to deal with race issues, and of people being arrested, prosecuted and imprisoned for the crimes in question, has never happened....
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Casey report on grooming gangs on 12:10 - Jun 17 with 1021 views
There's a segment of (I think) the second episode of Shifty (the latest documentary series from Adam Curtis on BBC Iplayer) which shows police interviewing a victim of rape in a police station and the attitude, questioning and general lack of belief or sympathy for the victim is gut-wrenching.
The clip mentioned would have been from the 80s but it doesn't take a tremendous leap to think that some of those attitudes (or indeed some of those people) may have existed still in police forces whilst this grooming gang stuff was happening.
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Casey report on grooming gangs on 12:14 - Jun 17 with 992 views
Casey report on grooming gangs on 12:10 - Jun 17 by JakeITFC
There's a segment of (I think) the second episode of Shifty (the latest documentary series from Adam Curtis on BBC Iplayer) which shows police interviewing a victim of rape in a police station and the attitude, questioning and general lack of belief or sympathy for the victim is gut-wrenching.
The clip mentioned would have been from the 80s but it doesn't take a tremendous leap to think that some of those attitudes (or indeed some of those people) may have existed still in police forces whilst this grooming gang stuff was happening.
As explicitly noted by Jay... And subject to recommendations which the last government sat on, and which are presumably now on hold pending yet another report.
The Casey report goes through the history of reports and developments in some detail... Worthwhile for peple claiming cover ups and that nothing has been done, to actually look at it and see the long history of reports and relative absence full implementation of recommendations...
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Casey report on grooming gangs on 12:23 - Jun 17 with 956 views
Casey report on grooming gangs on 12:10 - Jun 17 by JakeITFC
There's a segment of (I think) the second episode of Shifty (the latest documentary series from Adam Curtis on BBC Iplayer) which shows police interviewing a victim of rape in a police station and the attitude, questioning and general lack of belief or sympathy for the victim is gut-wrenching.
The clip mentioned would have been from the 80s but it doesn't take a tremendous leap to think that some of those attitudes (or indeed some of those people) may have existed still in police forces whilst this grooming gang stuff was happening.
I was listening to a pod the other day, and there was a lady on it and their granddaughter had been abused - one day she had left school during the day, the Gran had reported it to the police, she was then found the following night in a house with 7 or 8 men with a friend, both totally drunk [think they were 13/14] and the girls were arrested whilst nothing happened to the men. How does something like that happen?
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