| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets 12:29 - Jun 28 with 4274 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Doesn’t seem like they are going to be taking our approach from last summer. Let’s see if it works out any better for them. I hope we aren’t going to be doing the “Predominantly English” thing from a level down again if we get the chance this time next year, heard Ashton repeat that phrase on the Talksport segment.
If you can’t get Premier League experience, the European top leagues seems the best logical next step, or at least a blend of two. Sorry to beat an old drum but I did see the first couple of transfer interesting. |  | | |  |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 14:23 - Jun 28 with 868 views | ArnieM |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 14:10 - Jun 28 by SheffordBlue |
The quote from the leaked document (if accurate) used the phrase "to understand English or to have worked previously with an English-speaking coach" which is quite a bit broader.
McKenna has previously referenced not having the infrastructure in place to integrate overseas players and their families but that's part of the role of James Tedford as the logistics managers so maybe we're better placed for that now. |
I do wonder how long g itll be before the club gets its shouting network up to the required level. But I believe Ashton alluded to us trying to nick certain individuals from other clubs scouting networks. So not an easy job I guess, or quick. Bur I do think we are hampered by this gaping hole in our scouting infrastructure. But at least we're looking into trying to remedy this, unlike the Evans days of recruitment off the back of a fag packet. |  |
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| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 14:26 - Jun 28 with 851 views | PhilTWTD |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 13:55 - Jun 28 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
These are the kind of questions we need to hear asked to Ashton and co! |
I'll ask him about it next time I'm given the opportunity. |  | | |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 14:27 - Jun 28 with 844 views | Bellevue_Blue |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 12:40 - Jun 28 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Fair points especially when it pertains to Leeds but some of it seemed to be by design when you listen to the interviews. Even Cajuste is English speaking and perhaps only came on our radar after speaking to Brentford.
Talking of Brentford, who apparently have a very low wage bill in PL terms, their entire starting 11 was basically built this way, on decent deals as well, I hope some serious investment is going into that area of the club. Sunderland hasn’t been there for a while. Forgetting the overspend, Forest went nuts and had been out as long as us, maybe used scouting networks through the ownership I guess. |
You make recruitment seem like Football Manager ... Ashton got a message through on the dashboard that said 'Brentford bid £X for Jens Cajuste' and clicked on to see his attributes.
I know Football recruitment is a little bit like an iceberg in the sense that 99% is not in the public eye but these types of conversations are borderline insulting to those that spend their lives dedicated to it.
There is so much to it beyond recognising a player and their ability. Jens Cajuste much like many other international players would have been well known to the club long before Brentfords interest. But the fact is, there is a mountain of other important factors beyond that that you do not get from watching a player on video.
As the OP say's, I agree it will be really interesting to see how they get on. The danger with recruiting high-priced foreign players is if it goes wrong, not many want to stick around to play in the championship. |  | | |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 14:29 - Jun 28 with 830 views | PhilTWTD |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 14:23 - Jun 28 by ArnieM |
I do wonder how long g itll be before the club gets its shouting network up to the required level. But I believe Ashton alluded to us trying to nick certain individuals from other clubs scouting networks. So not an easy job I guess, or quick. Bur I do think we are hampered by this gaping hole in our scouting infrastructure. But at least we're looking into trying to remedy this, unlike the Evans days of recruitment off the back of a fag packet. |
For much of ME's time we had Mick's scouting network, which was well developed over many years, albeit an old school set-up. I think Town have essentially been starting from scratch, especially with areas like data. Notable that the Gamechanger accounts mentioned a new data company being got up and running, but it obviously will take time to get up to speed and we're behind the likes of Brighton, Brentford, probably all established Premier League clubs.
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| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 14:29 - Jun 28 with 820 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 12:56 - Jun 28 by PhilTWTD |
I think it has been by design, which has surprised me. I don't see it changing, either. The concentration has continued to be on the UK market. |
I think its criminal how under invested and under developed out scouting network is, especially abroad.
Last year's recruitment was so basic. |  |
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| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 14:31 - Jun 28 with 817 views | PhilTWTD |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 14:16 - Jun 28 by SheffordBlue |
I do wonder if we'd have been further along the line with our recruitment set up if Sam Williams hadn't left when he did. At the time what was left of the recruitment team was then trying to scout/recruit for both the Championship (if we'd fallen short) and the Prem.
I would have hoped it would have been area we would have strengthened since the end of last summer's window and we did add another UK focussed technical scout in January.
One of the recent job adverts for a recruitment analyst talks about working to both the Head of Recruitment and Head of Scouting and we currently only have the latter position filled - so maybe that's one of the job roles Ashton was talking about when he said we were beefing this team up. |
Perhaps, difficult to say. I think the pace of change as we've gone up the divisions may have been hard to keep up with. I know people have been added in the area as part of GC20 Data. | | | |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 14:33 - Jun 28 with 789 views | PhilTWTD |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 14:27 - Jun 28 by Bellevue_Blue |
You make recruitment seem like Football Manager ... Ashton got a message through on the dashboard that said 'Brentford bid £X for Jens Cajuste' and clicked on to see his attributes.
I know Football recruitment is a little bit like an iceberg in the sense that 99% is not in the public eye but these types of conversations are borderline insulting to those that spend their lives dedicated to it.
There is so much to it beyond recognising a player and their ability. Jens Cajuste much like many other international players would have been well known to the club long before Brentfords interest. But the fact is, there is a mountain of other important factors beyond that that you do not get from watching a player on video.
As the OP say's, I agree it will be really interesting to see how they get on. The danger with recruiting high-priced foreign players is if it goes wrong, not many want to stick around to play in the championship. |
From what I gather with Cajuste, his agent was touting him around to Premier League clubs, rather than him being one we actively scouted. From there, I assume he was assessed from scouting tools and he evidently ticked many of the required boxes. | | | |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 15:00 - Jun 28 with 722 views | Axeldalai_lama |
My two pence worth is that we all laud McKenna for his attention to detail and his man management etc, and bringing players on and improving them, so I imagine he isn't comfortable, or won't be comfortable with the foreign scouting set up until I he has absolute confidence that he can get a full feel for the players they may buy. The complete opposite to, as mentioned the point and click mistakes of the past where players just rock up on vague reputations and aren't part of the project in any real sense.
I'm waffling, but basically, as frustrating as it is for us, and potentially at times for the club even, that's his way of working and we have to accept it all I guess.
Or we don't, we make the club bigger than him, and start scouting and wanting these international players in like they seem to do elsewhere, heads of recruitment etc,but I'm not sure he'd hang around if so. |  | | |
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| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 15:08 - Jun 28 with 690 views | NthQldITFC |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 14:23 - Jun 28 by ArnieM |
I do wonder how long g itll be before the club gets its shouting network up to the required level. But I believe Ashton alluded to us trying to nick certain individuals from other clubs scouting networks. So not an easy job I guess, or quick. Bur I do think we are hampered by this gaping hole in our scouting infrastructure. But at least we're looking into trying to remedy this, unlike the Evans days of recruitment off the back of a fag packet. |
That's a lovely typo!
"I CAN'T BELIEVE WE STILL HAVEN'T GOT A SHOUTING NETWORK UP TO THE REQUIRED LEVEL... BUT MAYBE WE'RE STARTING TO GET THERE!!!" |  |
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| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 15:16 - Jun 28 with 677 views | The_Realist_09 |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 12:56 - Jun 28 by PhilTWTD |
I think it has been by design, which has surprised me. I don't see it changing, either. The concentration has continued to be on the UK market. |
This is really poor if so and could prove a real stumbling block if we genuinely want to close the gap on the Premier League. It's just not feasible to get the profile of player you need in UK markets.
This is a real disappointment as it seems the only piece of the puzzle we are missing. I hope it changes but they way Ashton speaks about it concerns me. | | | |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 15:28 - Jun 28 with 640 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 15:00 - Jun 28 by Axeldalai_lama |
My two pence worth is that we all laud McKenna for his attention to detail and his man management etc, and bringing players on and improving them, so I imagine he isn't comfortable, or won't be comfortable with the foreign scouting set up until I he has absolute confidence that he can get a full feel for the players they may buy. The complete opposite to, as mentioned the point and click mistakes of the past where players just rock up on vague reputations and aren't part of the project in any real sense.
I'm waffling, but basically, as frustrating as it is for us, and potentially at times for the club even, that's his way of working and we have to accept it all I guess.
Or we don't, we make the club bigger than him, and start scouting and wanting these international players in like they seem to do elsewhere, heads of recruitment etc,but I'm not sure he'd hang around if so. |
Unless the aim is just to get promoted and get relegated again we need to embrace the foreign markets.
Even if that's just to supplement the team.
We sound like we're in the 1960s with this fear of foreign players. | |
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| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 15:31 - Jun 28 with 637 views | blueoutlook |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 12:43 - Jun 28 by StokieBlue |
I hope we've been using the last 12 months or so to get the basis of a European scouting network in place.
It's the real way to get value in player trading.
I don't expect to see many international additions this summer though but we will see.
SB |
Ashton can’t keep using this as an excuse every season. He has been saying it for 3 years now. They must have set something up by now. Or at least have a foot in the door. If Sunderland have managed it but had an extra year to get it right then we must be up to speed too by now. We had our extra season in the PL in which to get it sorted whilst Sunderland had theirs in the Championship. |  | | |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:10 - Jun 28 with 584 views | ITFCSG |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 12:56 - Jun 28 by PhilTWTD |
I think it has been by design, which has surprised me. I don't see it changing, either. The concentration has continued to be on the UK market. |
If that is the case then it is shocking. Brought this up many times here and elsewhere after the Sun's dossier was leaked last summer and was accused by many of blasphemy.
Tunnel vision would have closed our eyes to a huge pool of players who are cheaper and better than domestic alternatives - for example anyone who watched the friendly with Fortuna last season could see Tanaka was a stand out player worthy of consideration. Most probably KM didn't want a Japanese, lo and behold Leeds swooped in and he didn't do too bad for the price did he?
If native English speakers and players brought through the domestic system are all that KM can work with then I think he can kiss his ambition of becoming a top Prem manager goodbye. How is he going to work with players at Spurs, Brighton, manUre etc whose dressing rooms resemble a mini-UN General Assembly? | | | |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:19 - Jun 28 with 548 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 15:28 - Jun 28 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Unless the aim is just to get promoted and get relegated again we need to embrace the foreign markets.
Even if that's just to supplement the team.
We sound like we're in the 1960s with this fear of foreign players. |
Oh, I'm not agreeing with the stance by any means and I'd like to think it will change as we grow and that it's not a blanket ban. I'm just attempting to figure out McKenna's logic, or at least what it was in the past.
Simply given where we were behind the scenes coupled with McKenna's need for hands on deep personal connections with players development or whatever, the only true way he could seemingly get that is recruiting from a home market he knows very well with home contacts he knows very well.
As you say a 'no foreigners please we're English' approach won't cut it longer term and you'd hope this is being rectified so as to bridge the gap with McKenna's need for details and personas.
Or this is a load of bollox and he's a massive racist!! | | | |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:25 - Jun 28 with 521 views | ITFCSG |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 15:28 - Jun 28 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Unless the aim is just to get promoted and get relegated again we need to embrace the foreign markets.
Even if that's just to supplement the team.
We sound like we're in the 1960s with this fear of foreign players. |
Everyone knows that the UK market offers the worse value for money. Look at what we paid for Philogene, J Clarke etc. is criminal. Even Delap was a gamble that (fortunately or not) did pay off.
It is obvious even if we were in the Prem we would never be able to attract and afford top homegrown talent like Foden, Grealish, C Palmer et al. Signing homegrown U21 players with potential are for the long term, but as we all saw from last season they aren't fit for purpose to hit the ground running and perform.
Smart clubs tap markets further abroad, even going beyond the traditional footballing powerhouses such as France, Spain, Netherlands and Germany to look for better value in countries such as Austria, Greece, Morocco, Eastern Europe, Central / South America and Asia. Plenty of skilful players in countries such as Japan and S Korea that are dirt cheap compared to local players.
The "leadership group" needs to address this asap. Sunderland were on a similar trajectory to us in terms of promotion from L1 to the Prem, if they can somehow survive next season using foreign players on a lower spend than what we did in 24/25 then we are going to look very stupid indeed. Even Birmingham seem to be better at signing international players compared to us at the moment. [Post edited 28 Jun 16:30]
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| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:29 - Jun 28 with 502 views | positivity |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:25 - Jun 28 by ITFCSG |
Everyone knows that the UK market offers the worse value for money. Look at what we paid for Philogene, J Clarke etc. is criminal. Even Delap was a gamble that (fortunately or not) did pay off.
It is obvious even if we were in the Prem we would never be able to attract and afford top homegrown talent like Foden, Grealish, C Palmer et al. Signing homegrown U21 players with potential are for the long term, but as we all saw from last season they aren't fit for purpose to hit the ground running and perform.
Smart clubs tap markets further abroad, even going beyond the traditional footballing powerhouses such as France, Spain, Netherlands and Germany to look for better value in countries such as Austria, Greece, Morocco, Eastern Europe, Central / South America and Asia. Plenty of skilful players in countries such as Japan and S Korea that are dirt cheap compared to local players.
The "leadership group" needs to address this asap. Sunderland were on a similar trajectory to us in terms of promotion from L1 to the Prem, if they can somehow survive next season using foreign players on a lower spend than what we did in 24/25 then we are going to look very stupid indeed. Even Birmingham seem to be better at signing international players compared to us at the moment. [Post edited 28 Jun 16:30]
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it's worse value to buy, but way more lucrative when you sell!
i'm sure they'll evolve as they go on and get more expertise in the area, and it should be a priority to pivot towards this.
however, it wouldn't be wise to jump in before they have that in place, we've seen plenty of useless foreign signings in the past and squad numbers are very tight! | |
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| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:35 - Jun 28 with 470 views | ITFCSG |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:29 - Jun 28 by positivity |
it's worse value to buy, but way more lucrative when you sell!
i'm sure they'll evolve as they go on and get more expertise in the area, and it should be a priority to pivot towards this.
however, it wouldn't be wise to jump in before they have that in place, we've seen plenty of useless foreign signings in the past and squad numbers are very tight! |
Fingers crossed, obviously I'd rather the club not sign another Sereni or Finidi George
But I hope MA & Co are building the overseas network as we speak, and that our lack of overseas signings are due to the non-existence of one instead of the personal whims and preferences of KM | | | |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:41 - Jun 28 with 440 views | LankHenners |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:35 - Jun 28 by ITFCSG |
Fingers crossed, obviously I'd rather the club not sign another Sereni or Finidi George
But I hope MA & Co are building the overseas network as we speak, and that our lack of overseas signings are due to the non-existence of one instead of the personal whims and preferences of KM |
As has been pointed out to you every time you've gone on this rant about how we only want English players because you completely/deliberately misread that leaked document, McKenna has said on several occasions he wants the club to have a functioning, far-reaching scouting network. |  |
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| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:41 - Jun 28 with 439 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:35 - Jun 28 by ITFCSG |
Fingers crossed, obviously I'd rather the club not sign another Sereni or Finidi George
But I hope MA & Co are building the overseas network as we speak, and that our lack of overseas signings are due to the non-existence of one instead of the personal whims and preferences of KM |
Not sure why we even using those guys as reference points?
Reuser and Wilnis weren't bad.
Finidi George wasn't scouted, he was a world famous, very old Nigerian international.
Sereni was recommended by Sven. They weren't scouted, they were typical agent led signings. | |
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| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:45 - Jun 28 with 412 views | positivity |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:41 - Jun 28 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Not sure why we even using those guys as reference points?
Reuser and Wilnis weren't bad.
Finidi George wasn't scouted, he was a world famous, very old Nigerian international.
Sereni was recommended by Sven. They weren't scouted, they were typical agent led signings. |
yes, we've signed plenty of overseas duds since then! | |
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| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:52 - Jun 28 with 392 views | PhilTWTD |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:41 - Jun 28 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Not sure why we even using those guys as reference points?
Reuser and Wilnis weren't bad.
Finidi George wasn't scouted, he was a world famous, very old Nigerian international.
Sereni was recommended by Sven. They weren't scouted, they were typical agent led signings. |
With Reuser and Wilnis we were on more solid ground with Romeo Zondervan scouting over there for us. It was going further afield and to a different level which was the issue. Finidi was signed as George was impressed by his performance in a game they watched while on a training camp in Mallorca towards the end of the first season in the Premier League. | | | |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 17:04 - Jun 28 with 346 views | PhilTWTD |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 16:10 - Jun 28 by ITFCSG |
If that is the case then it is shocking. Brought this up many times here and elsewhere after the Sun's dossier was leaked last summer and was accused by many of blasphemy.
Tunnel vision would have closed our eyes to a huge pool of players who are cheaper and better than domestic alternatives - for example anyone who watched the friendly with Fortuna last season could see Tanaka was a stand out player worthy of consideration. Most probably KM didn't want a Japanese, lo and behold Leeds swooped in and he didn't do too bad for the price did he?
If native English speakers and players brought through the domestic system are all that KM can work with then I think he can kiss his ambition of becoming a top Prem manager goodbye. How is he going to work with players at Spurs, Brighton, manUre etc whose dressing rooms resemble a mini-UN General Assembly? |
Re Tanaka, I seem to recall Kieran said he was well aware of him after that game, assume they didn't seem him as having what was required for the Premier League. I'm not sure Kieran is as wedded to recruiting British players as suggested. He will have worked with overseas players throughout his career from Tottenham's U18s onwards.
This post has been edited by an administrator | | | |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 18:17 - Jun 28 with 254 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 14:27 - Jun 28 by Bellevue_Blue |
You make recruitment seem like Football Manager ... Ashton got a message through on the dashboard that said 'Brentford bid £X for Jens Cajuste' and clicked on to see his attributes.
I know Football recruitment is a little bit like an iceberg in the sense that 99% is not in the public eye but these types of conversations are borderline insulting to those that spend their lives dedicated to it.
There is so much to it beyond recognising a player and their ability. Jens Cajuste much like many other international players would have been well known to the club long before Brentfords interest. But the fact is, there is a mountain of other important factors beyond that that you do not get from watching a player on video.
As the OP say's, I agree it will be really interesting to see how they get on. The danger with recruiting high-priced foreign players is if it goes wrong, not many want to stick around to play in the championship. |
Firstly, I was the OP.
I think that’s a bit harsh, as I’ve stated a few times my concern is it being by design which Phil has backed up. I think at the very least a blend of both would be a decent approach. I don’t think we’ve brought terrible players, a few misses maybe but the value to me, seems abroad, you only have to look around the Premier League. The fact Sunderland have jumped straight into that market after a good few years away, I find interesting.
It may serve us very well this year but we were really lacking physicality last year, kept hearing how no one with PL experience was really going to come, in that case a logical step would be the the European top leagues. If we didn’t have a network on in place to risk it, that’s a valid push back but the noise seemed to suggest we were focused on the UK. Ashton has even talked about that with coaches everywhere he’s been.
Why dilute the talent pool?
Maybe this completely backfires on Sunderland, time will tell. [Post edited 28 Jun 18:21]
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| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 18:49 - Jun 28 with 193 views | backwaywhen |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 12:34 - Jun 28 by SimonBatfordITFC |
Agreed, the setup at Leeds is still very good having been improved considerably under Bielsa. And there’s a very good chance that Sunderland have been able to access data from Dortmund’s scouting network as part of the Bellingham deal. Smart move if so. |
Also isn’t Sunderland manager French , if so must have European connections. | | | |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 18:49 - Jun 28 with 193 views | Nutkins_Return |
| Leeds and Sunderland straight into the European markets on 12:31 - Jun 28 by StokieBlue |
Leeds were in the PL only a couple of seasons ago and had a large international scouting network which we simply didn't have coming from L1.
It's not a fair comparison.
As for Sunderland, that is slightly different but they have been on a more steady trajectory and likely also had more of a network in place.
SB |
Sunderland certainly moved to that market as their strategy years ago. Their owner is also a shareholder in Marseille whom his father owned I think. I think their team already had good access in the French leagues and they Have continued to sign from there.
It's important to say there is more than one way to be successful in the market and copying others rather than your strengths is not the right play. We are building our recruitment function and databases to be able to recruit in that market but just doing it before this is matured wouldn't have been right for us. | |
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