| The Death of NATO 09:18 - Nov 22 with 3048 views | Churchman |
In the surrender document, point 4 states:
A dialogue will be held between Russia and NATO, mediated by the United States, to resolve all security issues and create conditions for de-escalation in order to ensure global security and increase opportunities for cooperation and future economic development.
The key five words are ‘mediated by the United States’. Well, if the US are now mediating a dialogue, they are no longer part of NATO. It doesn’t exist. It’s finished. Dead. Do Europe’s leaders realise it or care? They look a sorry lot to me that spend most of their Trump time saying ‘eat him, not me’. Should there be any surprise as to how this is playing out? No.
The ‘negotiations’? Russia wants a free hand in the Balkans, the Baltics ceded, Poland, old enemy Finland and possibly even Sweden. I’d go further after swallowing Ukraine, which it will. I’d insist the rest of Europe be demilitarised (shouldn’t take long with the U.K.) with protection supplied by Russia for a fee. Their sphere of influence. That would allow US a free hand to carve up the far east with China.
It’s interesting that the US is still playing the stop the killing card as its justification (like it’s given a hoot about killing anywhere else in the world from Africa to its own adventures in Afghanistan). The real reason is that Russia is beginning to struggle economically and has lost most of its military hardware. Wars are won by economics, ultimately.
The US cannot allow that. As a fellow authoritarian country Trump’s plan is a simple world three way carve up where the US gets its slice. The biggest. Trump’s mate Vlad has to therefore win not least because an over weak Russia means a stronger China.
Just somewhat naive thoughts.
What isn’t is a few basic principles I’ve known all my life. If you give in to bullies and blackmailers, they’ll always come back for more. Give me one example where they haven’t.
Freedom as we know it is hard won and easily lost. It costs too. Lastly, you have to rely first and foremost on yourself. Excruciatingly offering a dinner with King Charles with a silly little bit of paper isn’t going to cut it Sir Kier.
You and more particularly your predecessors should have seen this years ago (Crimea theft). Defence, internal and external, is a primary duty of government. They’ll talk about it and look worried but they’re not interested and in any case it’s all too late now I’m afraid. How about another review? [Post edited 22 Nov 9:20]
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| The Death of NATO on 15:59 - Nov 23 with 634 views | Kropotkin123 |
| The Death of NATO on 01:07 - Nov 23 by ElderGrizzly |
Confirmed as a Russian document/wish list
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If you believe that you are gullible. It was written with Witkoff and has clear American points within it. Note it is Rubio speaking who wasn't there and had been pushed aside in the negotiations and exchanges with Russia.
A Russian wishlist, but Trump says sign it by Tuesday. Okay. [Post edited 23 Nov 16:01]
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| The Death of NATO on 16:07 - Nov 23 with 615 views | bournemouthblue |
| The Death of NATO on 12:51 - Nov 22 by Bent_double |
What do you mean wouldn't last 5 mins? Russia would go nuclear?
Because little Ukraine has held them off for almost 4 years, surely the shear numbers and air superiority of the combined European countries against a weakened Russia would inflict a serious amount of damage on them. |
I've seen a mock up some NATO planes versus Russia and our planes destroy a lot more of theirs than they do with ours because we have superior missiles, the F35s particularly did impressive numbers of damage to their airforce particularly but they simply have so many planes, the sheer weight of numbers meant they would win in the end
The moral of the story was to buy more F35's really but if European NATO nations got into full war mode and geared themselves for it, we would gradually defeat them
The problem as has previously been said, we aren't ready yet and Trump quite reasonably expects us all to be paying a lot more towards NATO [Post edited 24 Nov 10:39]
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| The Death of NATO on 16:53 - Nov 23 with 576 views | StokieBlue |
| The Death of NATO on 10:45 - Nov 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
What do you expect Starmer and the "weak European leaders" to do then? Ignore America and declare war on Russia? Genuine question because I don't see any easy answer. |
I think one thing the Ukrainian war has highlighted is that a united Europe doesn't need the US to defend itself from Russia.
Militarily, Russia now is nothing like it was previously.
SB |  | | |
| The Death of NATO on 16:57 - Nov 23 with 558 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The Death of NATO on 16:53 - Nov 23 by StokieBlue |
I think one thing the Ukrainian war has highlighted is that a united Europe doesn't need the US to defend itself from Russia.
Militarily, Russia now is nothing like it was previously.
SB |
I'm glad someone's finally answered me! Yep, I agree. This deal looks likes a last desperate attempt from an otherwise busted flush. Russia has been hugely weakened, against a tiny foe in comparison. There's no way Ukraine, or any country in Europe, should accept this deal. |  |
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| The Death of NATO on 17:13 - Nov 23 with 522 views | mellowblue |
| The Death of NATO on 16:57 - Nov 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I'm glad someone's finally answered me! Yep, I agree. This deal looks likes a last desperate attempt from an otherwise busted flush. Russia has been hugely weakened, against a tiny foe in comparison. There's no way Ukraine, or any country in Europe, should accept this deal. |
At least there is still dialogue. While Putin is happy to let his countrymen bleed and keep the war going nothing is going to happen. Happy to keep Russia is on a war-footing and the restriction involved rather than face the challenges a peace will bring. It was a bit of a hail mary throw with no chance of success, the stupid Thanksgiving deadline, signals that. Can't see where any acceptable middle ground lies to foster an agreement. |  | | |
| The Death of NATO on 17:56 - Nov 23 with 486 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The Death of NATO on 17:13 - Nov 23 by mellowblue |
At least there is still dialogue. While Putin is happy to let his countrymen bleed and keep the war going nothing is going to happen. Happy to keep Russia is on a war-footing and the restriction involved rather than face the challenges a peace will bring. It was a bit of a hail mary throw with no chance of success, the stupid Thanksgiving deadline, signals that. Can't see where any acceptable middle ground lies to foster an agreement. |
How can you suggest there is still dialogue when Putin’s peace offer is no better, perhaps worse, than offered ages ago.
As for Trump’s thanksgiving day deadline that just shows how out of touch the old fella is. Thanksgiving day means nothing outside the 50 states. |  |
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| The Death of NATO on 20:38 - Nov 23 with 400 views | mellowblue |
| The Death of NATO on 17:56 - Nov 23 by Pinewoodblue |
How can you suggest there is still dialogue when Putin’s peace offer is no better, perhaps worse, than offered ages ago.
As for Trump’s thanksgiving day deadline that just shows how out of touch the old fella is. Thanksgiving day means nothing outside the 50 states. |
dialogue is obviously going on in Geneva, not three way granted, but US is talking to Russia and Ukraine seperately with Europe preparing a counter offering. Better dialogue even with a small chance of success than a guaranteed 5 years + more meat grinding. Hope is better than no hope. The 28 plan is not the answer and is obviously a Kremlin wish list with US add ons, a conversation starter if nothing else. | | | |
| The Death of NATO on 22:23 - Nov 23 with 332 views | Kievthegreat |
| The Death of NATO on 16:07 - Nov 23 by bournemouthblue |
I've seen a mock up some NATO planes versus Russia and our planes destroy a lot more of theirs than they do with ours because we have superior missiles, the F35s particularly did impressive numbers of damage to their airforce particularly but they simply have so many planes, the sheer weight of numbers meant they would win in the end
The moral of the story was to buy more F35's really but if European NATO nations got into full war mode and geared themselves for it, we would gradually defeat them
The problem as has previously been said, we aren't ready yet and Trump quite reasonably expects us all to be paying a lot more towards NATO [Post edited 24 Nov 10:39]
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I'm not sure Russia would win out. They do have an enormous number of airframes, but they have no 5th gen fighter* and about a quarter of their "fighters" are SU-24 which are extremely outdated an an equivalent of Tornados that have been retired from most NATO service. The Russian force is currently being stretched thin in Ukraine ATM, it's had to station it's aircraft further back from the border, is forced to almost solely rely on stand-off munitions out of necessity and has been unable to establish air superiority in 3 years.
Just the European members of NATO field over 400 Typhoons, 100 F35s and 500 F16s. That of course means we aren't even counting the French yet who field the largest airforce in Europe with 200+ Rafaele and Mirage. Given how well Russia have done over Ukraine, I'm not sure conventional airpower is any worry. I'd be more worried about asymmetric attacks, how much air defence in Poland and the Baltic could handle a swarm of drone and missile attacks. Hopefully we've been paying attention...
*Su-57 is probably better described as a 4.5 gen, and doesn't seem likely to be a patch on the F35. |  | | |
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| The Death of NATO on 23:31 - Nov 23 with 290 views | StokieBlue |
| The Death of NATO on 22:23 - Nov 23 by Kievthegreat |
I'm not sure Russia would win out. They do have an enormous number of airframes, but they have no 5th gen fighter* and about a quarter of their "fighters" are SU-24 which are extremely outdated an an equivalent of Tornados that have been retired from most NATO service. The Russian force is currently being stretched thin in Ukraine ATM, it's had to station it's aircraft further back from the border, is forced to almost solely rely on stand-off munitions out of necessity and has been unable to establish air superiority in 3 years.
Just the European members of NATO field over 400 Typhoons, 100 F35s and 500 F16s. That of course means we aren't even counting the French yet who field the largest airforce in Europe with 200+ Rafaele and Mirage. Given how well Russia have done over Ukraine, I'm not sure conventional airpower is any worry. I'd be more worried about asymmetric attacks, how much air defence in Poland and the Baltic could handle a swarm of drone and missile attacks. Hopefully we've been paying attention...
*Su-57 is probably better described as a 4.5 gen, and doesn't seem likely to be a patch on the F35. |
With regards to countering the drone swarms, these type of defences need to be rushed through as quick as possible.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/dragonfire-a-guide-to-britains-new-laser-weapon/
SB [Post edited 23 Nov 23:32]
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| The Death of NATO on 10:48 - Nov 24 with 142 views | bournemouthblue |
Drones in themselves are quite scary, it's not inconceivable thst we will end up with 'motherships' which unleash massive swarms of drones which would cause different challenges
The sheer wait of numbers was how Russia won this battle, not technological advantage but this wasn't an official war game where a lot more factors would be taken into account and accurate
Europe on a war footing and economically geared to it, would win
Ths US are very powerful and very much looking at China, they expect a war with them at some point and it may well come, historically when two superpowers start to reach parity you get a war
Putin's war on the face of it is naive and has unneccesarily set Russia back 40 years | |
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| The Death of NATO on 10:52 - Nov 24 with 134 views | StokieBlue |
| The Death of NATO on 10:48 - Nov 24 by bournemouthblue |
Drones in themselves are quite scary, it's not inconceivable thst we will end up with 'motherships' which unleash massive swarms of drones which would cause different challenges
The sheer wait of numbers was how Russia won this battle, not technological advantage but this wasn't an official war game where a lot more factors would be taken into account and accurate
Europe on a war footing and economically geared to it, would win
Ths US are very powerful and very much looking at China, they expect a war with them at some point and it may well come, historically when two superpowers start to reach parity you get a war
Putin's war on the face of it is naive and has unneccesarily set Russia back 40 years |
Indeed.
However using lasers changes the game. It's not hundreds of thousands for each shot at a drone, it's 10 GBP and with each shot moving at the speed of light you just keep shooting until you hit it (although the accuracy seems very good).
Drones "motherships" is already very feasible technologically. Drones synced to a piloted plane as wingmen is being tested.
SB [Post edited 24 Nov 10:53]
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