| Trump and History 07:54 - Jan 15 with 1436 views | Samuelowen88 |
There's going to be whole syllabus(s) dedicated to Trump and the mad shit hes done isn't there.
Even yesterday screaming and giving the middle finger to a protestor.
What will people in the future think? Which specific points will they see as the key moments. |  |
| |  |
| Trump and History on 10:23 - Jan 15 with 1255 views | Guthrum |
It all depends how things go on from here and what he is succeeded by. History is defined by major events (e.g. if he starts a major war, does actually break NATO or dismantles US democracy) and changes of direction (such as if the split with Europe persists long term).
If it all comes to an end fairly soon - say the mid-terms produce a heavily Democrat Congress who are allowed to take their seats, followed by a health decline and early retirement of Trump himself, then Vance failing in 2028, all without having started a major conflagration/civil war/etc. - then it will probably be regarded as a brief aberration, the last hurrah of old forces. More of a footnote than a significant era (Trump would hate that more than anything).
Alternatively, if things really blow up, it might be seen like some of the stages in the decline and fall of the Roman Empire.
It will already have done significant damage to the USA's standing in the world. May take decades for allies and neighbours to completely trust them again, if ever. Even a return to something like the previous normality is unlikely to stop places like Europe working towards more unity and regional strength. |  |
| |
| Trump and History on 10:29 - Jan 15 with 1242 views | WeWereZombies |
He will be a footnote, like a longer lasting Liz Truss. The United States will be viewed not as great but as unable to learn from the United Kingdom and allowing someone obviously batsh!t crazy to be in charge for a second time. |  |
| |
| Trump and History on 12:48 - Jan 15 with 1126 views | LeoMuff |
| Trump and History on 10:23 - Jan 15 by Guthrum |
It all depends how things go on from here and what he is succeeded by. History is defined by major events (e.g. if he starts a major war, does actually break NATO or dismantles US democracy) and changes of direction (such as if the split with Europe persists long term).
If it all comes to an end fairly soon - say the mid-terms produce a heavily Democrat Congress who are allowed to take their seats, followed by a health decline and early retirement of Trump himself, then Vance failing in 2028, all without having started a major conflagration/civil war/etc. - then it will probably be regarded as a brief aberration, the last hurrah of old forces. More of a footnote than a significant era (Trump would hate that more than anything).
Alternatively, if things really blow up, it might be seen like some of the stages in the decline and fall of the Roman Empire.
It will already have done significant damage to the USA's standing in the world. May take decades for allies and neighbours to completely trust them again, if ever. Even a return to something like the previous normality is unlikely to stop places like Europe working towards more unity and regional strength. |
Will certainly be interesting if Dems do really well in the midterms, I think democracy in the US will come under serious threat. |  |
| |
| Trump and History on 12:56 - Jan 15 with 1093 views | lowhouseblue |
| Trump and History on 10:23 - Jan 15 by Guthrum |
It all depends how things go on from here and what he is succeeded by. History is defined by major events (e.g. if he starts a major war, does actually break NATO or dismantles US democracy) and changes of direction (such as if the split with Europe persists long term).
If it all comes to an end fairly soon - say the mid-terms produce a heavily Democrat Congress who are allowed to take their seats, followed by a health decline and early retirement of Trump himself, then Vance failing in 2028, all without having started a major conflagration/civil war/etc. - then it will probably be regarded as a brief aberration, the last hurrah of old forces. More of a footnote than a significant era (Trump would hate that more than anything).
Alternatively, if things really blow up, it might be seen like some of the stages in the decline and fall of the Roman Empire.
It will already have done significant damage to the USA's standing in the world. May take decades for allies and neighbours to completely trust them again, if ever. Even a return to something like the previous normality is unlikely to stop places like Europe working towards more unity and regional strength. |
a theme which historians may end up focusing on (who now could possibly know) is the extreme divisiveness of civil society - with trump being both a symptom and a cause of that. but if it were possible to take away the impact of the internet, is today really more divided than the mccarthy period, of vietnam war period or the civil rights period? what would the nixon or mccarthy periods have been like with social media? is it just that social media has taken a cycle of political division that we've seen before and turned it into something exceptionally toxic? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Trump and History on 12:57 - Jan 15 with 1105 views | iamatractorboy |
| Trump and History on 12:48 - Jan 15 by LeoMuff |
Will certainly be interesting if Dems do really well in the midterms, I think democracy in the US will come under serious threat. |
Do you think people will have free access to voting facilities, postal voting etc? I have my doubts. US voting seems like a total mess at the best of times with some of the stories you hear about people queuing up for hours. |  | | |
| Trump and History on 13:02 - Jan 15 with 1082 views | iamatractorboy |
| Trump and History on 12:56 - Jan 15 by lowhouseblue |
a theme which historians may end up focusing on (who now could possibly know) is the extreme divisiveness of civil society - with trump being both a symptom and a cause of that. but if it were possible to take away the impact of the internet, is today really more divided than the mccarthy period, of vietnam war period or the civil rights period? what would the nixon or mccarthy periods have been like with social media? is it just that social media has taken a cycle of political division that we've seen before and turned it into something exceptionally toxic? |
The extreme devision may have always been there bubbling away in the background, or unspoken in public, but one thing is for sure, Trump has enabled and encouraged the more visible division with his blatant corruption, law breaking and saying some awful stuff that only encourages those on the far right to come out of their shells. The Internet helps it to spread, sure, but would Trump's rhetoric and behaviour have still lead to the current situation if he'd been president, say, in the 80s or 90s? I wouldn't argue against it. | | | |
| Trump and History on 13:04 - Jan 15 with 1063 views | Xatticus |
Have you truly never seen Planet of the Apes? | | | |
| Trump and History on 13:21 - Jan 15 with 993 views | lowhouseblue |
| Trump and History on 13:02 - Jan 15 by iamatractorboy |
The extreme devision may have always been there bubbling away in the background, or unspoken in public, but one thing is for sure, Trump has enabled and encouraged the more visible division with his blatant corruption, law breaking and saying some awful stuff that only encourages those on the far right to come out of their shells. The Internet helps it to spread, sure, but would Trump's rhetoric and behaviour have still lead to the current situation if he'd been president, say, in the 80s or 90s? I wouldn't argue against it. |
yes i don't know really. you see ice being used in such an aggressive and provocative manner and it feels like a break with the past. but how does it really compare with, eg, the kent state shootings or the use of the national guard on campuses and elsewhere to crush civil rights and vietnam protests? there's always a tendnacy to see our bit of history as exceptional, but it may not really be so. does anything trump has done to opponents compare to mccarthy's political show trials? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Trump and History on 14:17 - Jan 15 with 950 views | iamatractorboy |
| Trump and History on 13:21 - Jan 15 by lowhouseblue |
yes i don't know really. you see ice being used in such an aggressive and provocative manner and it feels like a break with the past. but how does it really compare with, eg, the kent state shootings or the use of the national guard on campuses and elsewhere to crush civil rights and vietnam protests? there's always a tendnacy to see our bit of history as exceptional, but it may not really be so. does anything trump has done to opponents compare to mccarthy's political show trials? |
When you say to crush civil rights protests, I assume you mean to crush the racists, since the action was against desegregation rather than enforcement of it! | | | |
| Trump and History on 14:33 - Jan 15 with 912 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
The defining moments for Trump imo were those primaries before his first election. He was up on stage with seasoned (albeit mental) politicians like Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush, Rand Paul. He was seen still as a joke candidate who couldn't do it but seeing him on stage with these guys who were still speaking as politicians and just going completely off script if he even had one, bare faced lying, name calling but yet rising poll after poll was absolutely surreal. It was so far away from what the US had been under Obama and every president before him, it just didn't seem real.
He was a scumbag then and he is still one now, so at least he is consistent I guess.
I do believe that MAGA ends with Donald Trump Sr though, so hopefully we can get through these next few years without major disaster and the US can rebuild. [Post edited 15 Jan 14:35]
|  |
| |
| Trump and History on 15:06 - Jan 15 with 844 views | lowhouseblue |
| Trump and History on 14:17 - Jan 15 by iamatractorboy |
When you say to crush civil rights protests, I assume you mean to crush the racists, since the action was against desegregation rather than enforcement of it! |
yes fair point. the national guard was used on both sides, initially enforcing segregation, and then being federalised and enforcing integration. i guess i was thinking more of the vietnam and wider unrest from the later 60s onwards. reading about the kent state massacre and it is all remarkably trumpian. 4 deaths, multiple casualties, the president described the students as 'bums', and in an opinion poll immediately following 58% blamed the students and 11% blamed the national guard. a couple of days later 11 students were bayoneted by the national guard at new mexico. in terms of political divisions that competes with what we have today. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Trump and History on 15:07 - Jan 15 with 857 views | cbower |
| Trump and History on 10:23 - Jan 15 by Guthrum |
It all depends how things go on from here and what he is succeeded by. History is defined by major events (e.g. if he starts a major war, does actually break NATO or dismantles US democracy) and changes of direction (such as if the split with Europe persists long term).
If it all comes to an end fairly soon - say the mid-terms produce a heavily Democrat Congress who are allowed to take their seats, followed by a health decline and early retirement of Trump himself, then Vance failing in 2028, all without having started a major conflagration/civil war/etc. - then it will probably be regarded as a brief aberration, the last hurrah of old forces. More of a footnote than a significant era (Trump would hate that more than anything).
Alternatively, if things really blow up, it might be seen like some of the stages in the decline and fall of the Roman Empire.
It will already have done significant damage to the USA's standing in the world. May take decades for allies and neighbours to completely trust them again, if ever. Even a return to something like the previous normality is unlikely to stop places like Europe working towards more unity and regional strength. |
Great analysis Gutters. Trump as an aberration, oooooh that would pi$$ him off big time  |  |
| |
| Trump and History on 15:34 - Jan 15 with 811 views | Guthrum |
| Trump and History on 13:21 - Jan 15 by lowhouseblue |
yes i don't know really. you see ice being used in such an aggressive and provocative manner and it feels like a break with the past. but how does it really compare with, eg, the kent state shootings or the use of the national guard on campuses and elsewhere to crush civil rights and vietnam protests? there's always a tendnacy to see our bit of history as exceptional, but it may not really be so. does anything trump has done to opponents compare to mccarthy's political show trials? |
ICE strikes me more like the Sturmabteilung in the early years of the German nazi government, or the Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution in China. A paramilitary force deployed to harass and intimidate opponents, under political control from the centre, but separate from the army or police.
Many authoritarian regimes historically have organised groups like that to aggressively back their policies. If anything, ICE are (at the moment) less violent than many examples. | |
| |
| Trump and History on 21:27 - Jan 15 with 693 views | J2BLUE |
He actually accepted Machado's Nobel Peace medal...wow |  |
| |
| Trump and History on 21:35 - Jan 15 with 680 views | Plums |
The good people of Lincolnshire elected a middle finger giver to the office of Mayor so I don't imagine it would even have registered with those who aren't paying attention but would vote for him anyway. |  |
| |
| Trump and History on 23:47 - Jan 15 with 585 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Trump and History on 13:21 - Jan 15 by lowhouseblue |
yes i don't know really. you see ice being used in such an aggressive and provocative manner and it feels like a break with the past. but how does it really compare with, eg, the kent state shootings or the use of the national guard on campuses and elsewhere to crush civil rights and vietnam protests? there's always a tendnacy to see our bit of history as exceptional, but it may not really be so. does anything trump has done to opponents compare to mccarthy's political show trials? |
I don't buy your comparisons at all. Looking at what Trump is doing in totality vis a vie Russia, Greenland, election result denying, pardoning the Capitol Hill criminals etc etc, this is all much more extreme.
Sadly you do have a track record of this rationalisation though |  | | |
| Trump and History on 00:21 - Jan 16 with 549 views | Libero |
It’s about time Adam Curtis did a new documentary… |  | | |
| Trump and History on 00:52 - Jan 16 with 522 views | WicklowBlue |
| Trump and History on 21:27 - Jan 15 by J2BLUE |
He actually accepted Machado's Nobel Peace medal...wow |
Trump probably resigned himself to that being the only way he will touch same. President of peace LOL! (Albeit nothing to laugh at) |  | | |
| Trump and History on 05:53 - Jan 16 with 454 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Trump and History on 21:27 - Jan 15 by J2BLUE |
He actually accepted Machado's Nobel Peace medal...wow |
It means nothing though, apart from she’s desperate.
Nobel Committee have said she is still the winner and the award itself can’t be transferred to anyone
[Post edited 16 Jan 6:23]
|  | | |
| Trump and History on 09:45 - Jan 16 with 321 views | lowhouseblue |
| Trump and History on 23:47 - Jan 15 by reusersfreekicks |
I don't buy your comparisons at all. Looking at what Trump is doing in totality vis a vie Russia, Greenland, election result denying, pardoning the Capitol Hill criminals etc etc, this is all much more extreme.
Sadly you do have a track record of this rationalisation though |
if you don't buy my specific comparisons between ice and previous presidents using the national guard to crush political opposition say why. comparing specific things he is doing with other bits of recent american history isn't defending him. i find it interesting. if every waking thought has to be constantly squeezed into being for him or against him, with any deviation from the approved script being policed, it becomes rather dull. [Post edited 16 Jan 9:59]
| |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Trump and History on 10:04 - Jan 16 with 307 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Trump and History on 05:53 - Jan 16 by ElderGrizzly |
It means nothing though, apart from she’s desperate.
Nobel Committee have said she is still the winner and the award itself can’t be transferred to anyone
[Post edited 16 Jan 6:23]
|
She’s going to feel a fool when he rides all over her and does/takes what he wants anyway. It’s something she could have handed down to her kids (if she has/plans to have any). |  |
| |
| Trump and History on 10:55 - Jan 16 with 264 views | iamatractorboy |
| Trump and History on 10:04 - Jan 16 by Swansea_Blue |
She’s going to feel a fool when he rides all over her and does/takes what he wants anyway. It’s something she could have handed down to her kids (if she has/plans to have any). |
Yeh surely first rule of dealing with a temper tantrum toddler - do not give them exactly what they want. | | | |
| Trump and History on 11:06 - Jan 16 with 246 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Trump and History on 10:04 - Jan 16 by Swansea_Blue |
She’s going to feel a fool when he rides all over her and does/takes what he wants anyway. It’s something she could have handed down to her kids (if she has/plans to have any). |
She has a daughter as she picked it up on her behalf at the ceremony | | | |
| Trump and History on 11:38 - Jan 16 with 221 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Trump and History on 09:45 - Jan 16 by lowhouseblue |
if you don't buy my specific comparisons between ice and previous presidents using the national guard to crush political opposition say why. comparing specific things he is doing with other bits of recent american history isn't defending him. i find it interesting. if every waking thought has to be constantly squeezed into being for him or against him, with any deviation from the approved script being policed, it becomes rather dull. [Post edited 16 Jan 9:59]
|
In what ways are you for Trump?
If it's dull to consistently i.e. before his 2024 election as well, to warn against the dangers of Trump and his Presidency (and his actions have surpassed those fears) then dull I am.
You can carry on being exciting in your consistent minimalist views of the threat he poses
Anyhoo no desire to get into more arguments so that's all I'll say | | | |
| Trump and History on 12:02 - Jan 16 with 200 views | lowhouseblue |
| Trump and History on 11:38 - Jan 16 by reusersfreekicks |
In what ways are you for Trump?
If it's dull to consistently i.e. before his 2024 election as well, to warn against the dangers of Trump and his Presidency (and his actions have surpassed those fears) then dull I am.
You can carry on being exciting in your consistent minimalist views of the threat he poses
Anyhoo no desire to get into more arguments so that's all I'll say |
it's dull because you seem to object to anything that strays outside of a black and white, right and wrong, good and evil characterisation. eg "Sadly you do have a track record of this rationalisation though". and "You can carry on being exciting in your consistent minimalist views of the threat he poses."
and it's a discussion - we have different ideas and were exchanging them. that's really not a bad thing.
in terms of consistently warning of the dangers, in practice with the constant social media drone about trump which gets copied on here, that ends up as a view that he is unprecedented and a break with all that has gone before (he's literally a fascist of course). whereas lots of things he does (not all) have been done in the relatively recent past.
perhaps with all the warning of the dangers, we're missing a bigger picture (the thread is about trump and history) which is that a long swing of liberal and progressive dominance in social and political matters (since the 60s) has been replaced by current more right wing dominance which in many ways is replicating some of the politics from before the 60s. much of it is not without precedent but may possibly be part of a long historical cycle.
that's not saying its good or bad - it's an idea and an observation as part of a discussion. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
