| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences 09:01 - Feb 4 with 779 views | DJR |
https://www.theguardian.com/en
"If I think about what this means, I want to cry’: what happens when a city loses its university?
When Essex University’s Southend campus opened, it was a message of hope for a ‘left behind’ UK seaside town. Its closure will be felt far beyond its 800 students, some of whom will not get their degrees"
Something like this has already happened in Hastings, when Brighton University closed its campus there.
[Post edited 4 Feb 9:05]
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:28 - Feb 4 with 522 views | eireblue |
Another Victory for Reform and the anti-immigration lobby.
Causing more harm to British workers than asylum seekers.
Their supporters must be so proud. |  | | |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:39 - Feb 4 with 510 views | Herbivore |
Higher education is one of the very few remaining areas where the UK can still claim to be world leading. Government policy over the last 15 years under all governments has actively weakened and undermined the sector. It can't go on as it is for much longer, a large proportion of unis are in various states of financial crisis and there's no political will to support the sector. |  |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:44 - Feb 4 with 500 views | DanTheMan |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:39 - Feb 4 by Herbivore |
Higher education is one of the very few remaining areas where the UK can still claim to be world leading. Government policy over the last 15 years under all governments has actively weakened and undermined the sector. It can't go on as it is for much longer, a large proportion of unis are in various states of financial crisis and there's no political will to support the sector. |
Meanwhile, there's anger brewing over the Plan 2 "loans". |  |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:47 - Feb 4 with 482 views | Swansea_Blue |
Tell me about it. I lost one job thanks to Brexit, then my next became partly unsustainable thanks to Brexit and then fully unsustainable thanks to the punitive immigration policies. It’s all linked; all driven by racist and xenophobic sentiment. Thousands of jobs have gone across the sector. A lot you won’t read about because they’re fixed term roles that won’t be replaced, so they don’t hit the redundancy figures. But they’re jobs lost nonetheless.
The university sector is fked. Now the genius idea is that instead of taking international students, we should outsource one of our best exports and build campuses overseas. Fine if you’re a massive university that can afford large, long-term capital projects while the sector struggles in the UK. Even then, the wealth generated by universities and money spent in the local economy will benefit the overseas countries.
It’s madness. All because the Tories and now Labour are more scared of the racist vote than they are interested in improving opportunities and wealth.
And on top of that, Labour have just decided to make life more difficult for lower paid graduates by ramping up their loan repayment costs. |  |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:47 - Feb 4 with 480 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:39 - Feb 4 by Herbivore |
Higher education is one of the very few remaining areas where the UK can still claim to be world leading. Government policy over the last 15 years under all governments has actively weakened and undermined the sector. It can't go on as it is for much longer, a large proportion of unis are in various states of financial crisis and there's no political will to support the sector. |
Perfectly put | |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:48 - Feb 4 with 480 views | giant_stow |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:44 - Feb 4 by DanTheMan |
Meanwhile, there's anger brewing over the Plan 2 "loans". |
From what I've read, the terms and interest rate on those is disgusting. Young (or younger) people getting screwed yet again. |  |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:53 - Feb 4 with 454 views | SomethingBlue |
The nihilists are winning and on the verge of taking an infantilised nodding dog public with them, possibly forever. Still time to put things right but it's, at the very least, quarter to midnight. |  |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:59 - Feb 4 with 416 views | J2BLUE |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:47 - Feb 4 by Swansea_Blue |
Tell me about it. I lost one job thanks to Brexit, then my next became partly unsustainable thanks to Brexit and then fully unsustainable thanks to the punitive immigration policies. It’s all linked; all driven by racist and xenophobic sentiment. Thousands of jobs have gone across the sector. A lot you won’t read about because they’re fixed term roles that won’t be replaced, so they don’t hit the redundancy figures. But they’re jobs lost nonetheless.
The university sector is fked. Now the genius idea is that instead of taking international students, we should outsource one of our best exports and build campuses overseas. Fine if you’re a massive university that can afford large, long-term capital projects while the sector struggles in the UK. Even then, the wealth generated by universities and money spent in the local economy will benefit the overseas countries.
It’s madness. All because the Tories and now Labour are more scared of the racist vote than they are interested in improving opportunities and wealth.
And on top of that, Labour have just decided to make life more difficult for lower paid graduates by ramping up their loan repayment costs. |
Just asking the question...should governments ignore the population on things like immigration? I am asking because I often see things like this about the racist vote etc without any acknowledgement that, right or wrongly, poll after poll shows a majority of the country want immigration reduced.
Again, not getting into whether it is right or wrong. Just curious whether you think the government should ignore the current sentiment? |  |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:01 - Feb 4 with 400 views | brazil1982 |
Universities have planned for too enthusiastically on numbers from China, and been devastated by the falling numbers. The cost of relocating and living in the UK has risen sharply for overseas students. Most postgraduate taught students do not bring family with them, it's the costs of the UK and the China market that has hit. |  | | |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:01 - Feb 4 with 398 views | DanTheMan |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:48 - Feb 4 by giant_stow |
From what I've read, the terms and interest rate on those is disgusting. Young (or younger) people getting screwed yet again. |
My wife will never pay it off unless she starts earning in the top 10-5%. It's a dreadful thing that is the worst of both a tax and a loan.
It's something silly like at the moment you have to be earning around £50k to even start paying off the interest.
And then if you are a higher paid tax payer, you pay an extra 9% tax effectively, for basically the full 30 years which is the majority of your working life.
And of course the people who don't have to pay this are those with very well off parents who can afford to fund the university places so you end up with a perverse situation where those lucky people don't end up paying any of what is effectively a tax.
Whole thing is a scam. [Post edited 4 Feb 11:16]
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:09 - Feb 4 with 365 views | nrb1985 |
My better half's sister is a lecturer at Warwick.
She told us a few months ago that many degrees, particularly the arts, are simply being scrapped from a number of university's curriculum because the lack of international students means they don't have the money to keep funding less popular courses.
Along with what Herby says about us being world leading in higher education, an enormous source of soft power is our ability to export the arts. And with less arts degrees, among a host of other nonsense, I have felt for some time that the fibre of our society is being somewhat torn apart.
Unfortunately looks like things are only going in one direction for now though. [Post edited 4 Feb 11:24]
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:11 - Feb 4 with 345 views | Herbivore |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:59 - Feb 4 by J2BLUE |
Just asking the question...should governments ignore the population on things like immigration? I am asking because I often see things like this about the racist vote etc without any acknowledgement that, right or wrongly, poll after poll shows a majority of the country want immigration reduced.
Again, not getting into whether it is right or wrong. Just curious whether you think the government should ignore the current sentiment? |
I don't think they should ignore them but a bit of grown up debate with the public about the benefits of immigration, why it's actually necessary to support our economy and ageing population, and such like wouldn't go amiss. The public narrative about immigration has become completely one sided and all of the research suggests that this influences and fuels negative public perceptions of immigration rather than the public discourse passively reflecting the public's views. | |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:13 - Feb 4 with 338 views | Herbivore |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:01 - Feb 4 by brazil1982 |
Universities have planned for too enthusiastically on numbers from China, and been devastated by the falling numbers. The cost of relocating and living in the UK has risen sharply for overseas students. Most postgraduate taught students do not bring family with them, it's the costs of the UK and the China market that has hit. |
This is one take but it's not a full and accurate picture by any stretch. | |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:15 - Feb 4 with 332 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:59 - Feb 4 by J2BLUE |
Just asking the question...should governments ignore the population on things like immigration? I am asking because I often see things like this about the racist vote etc without any acknowledgement that, right or wrongly, poll after poll shows a majority of the country want immigration reduced.
Again, not getting into whether it is right or wrong. Just curious whether you think the government should ignore the current sentiment? |
Then you have to ask why these people want immigration reduced. Is it because of lived experience of negative immigration. And if that's the case, is that representative of the UK as a whole? Or is the public view resulting from fear mongering by the likes of Farage and the large sections of the press? Views are being shaped by people operating in bad faith because they can lever the hatred for their own personal gain.
Personally, I think the government should show leadership rather than capitulate to the most hateful position. In the same way you wouldn't expect the government to embrace anti-vax views and abandon health care advice, you don't expect them to promote division. The government should be countering hateful views.
In an ideal world, governments would be forces for change and concerned with what would make people's lives better. But we all know that's a pipe dream and they are more focussed on what will allow them to retain power. I don't know what the answer is. I wish they were offering hope grounded in morality for a start. | |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:16 - Feb 4 with 318 views | Kievthegreat |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:44 - Feb 4 by DanTheMan |
Meanwhile, there's anger brewing over the Plan 2 "loans". |
It's a really bad system, badly explained, misleadingly advertised and is driving lots of government borrowing that will not be repaid and any attempt to fix it will get Reform/Tories frothing at the mouth and make Reeves have a heart attack.
It functions like the worst hybrid of a tax and a debt repayment, creates perverse incentives and adds stress because massive number that just stubbornly won't go down (intial size + stupid interest rates).
They should either just make it an actual graduate tax or make the loans interest free so that they actually get paid back. At the moment it is a graduate tax that can be avoided if Mummy and Daddy are wealthy enough, but with the misleading stressfulness of having this huge number hanging over your head. |  | | |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:18 - Feb 4 with 307 views | Samuelowen88 |
Universities are not in a good way. As others have said the lack of overseas students (mainly from China) has created a massive shortfall and they are doing everything they can to save money.
The government is also reducing it's research funding in some sectors, which is another big pay day for universities, and another think that the UK can claim to be world leading at.
Quite why the Gov aren't funding research like they used to, who knows, but there are very sizable project that have either had their funding scrapped entirely or thinned down to an extent that makes them unfeasible.
In general, the outlook is pretty bleak. |  |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:19 - Feb 4 with 299 views | DanTheMan |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:11 - Feb 4 by Herbivore |
I don't think they should ignore them but a bit of grown up debate with the public about the benefits of immigration, why it's actually necessary to support our economy and ageing population, and such like wouldn't go amiss. The public narrative about immigration has become completely one sided and all of the research suggests that this influences and fuels negative public perceptions of immigration rather than the public discourse passively reflecting the public's views. |
Would be ideal if we could have a sensible debate on it. The issue is, people usually want lower taxes, less immigration etc.
Basically a whole bunch of policies which when put together would cripple the country. | |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:22 - Feb 4 with 286 views | J2BLUE |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:15 - Feb 4 by Swansea_Blue |
Then you have to ask why these people want immigration reduced. Is it because of lived experience of negative immigration. And if that's the case, is that representative of the UK as a whole? Or is the public view resulting from fear mongering by the likes of Farage and the large sections of the press? Views are being shaped by people operating in bad faith because they can lever the hatred for their own personal gain.
Personally, I think the government should show leadership rather than capitulate to the most hateful position. In the same way you wouldn't expect the government to embrace anti-vax views and abandon health care advice, you don't expect them to promote division. The government should be countering hateful views.
In an ideal world, governments would be forces for change and concerned with what would make people's lives better. But we all know that's a pipe dream and they are more focussed on what will allow them to retain power. I don't know what the answer is. I wish they were offering hope grounded in morality for a start. |
That sounds like a yes?
Is it the government's job to be a force for change or is their job to represent the people who elected them?
I don't disagree with your first paragraph. I just think it's too easy to keep calling it the racist vote and suggesting the government should ignore it but if they do it drives people to Reform. No one with any sense wants Reform in government.
I do absolutely agree that the government should focus on educating people and highlighting the benefits immigration brings. It needs a positive campaign, not constant attacks condemning people as racist. Of course there are some people who will never change their minds. We can all think of 1-2 on here but for Reform to get in they will need moderate people to back them. Those are the people we need to target to make sure Reform do not get into power. | |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:25 - Feb 4 with 274 views | lowhouseblue |
higher education policy is a mess. the blair target of 50% going to university was progressive and advanced opportunity, but only made sense if there were real graduate level jobs for people to go into. it also led to decline in apprenticeships and vocational training. and similarly the tory / lib dem funding model made sense for universities producing graduates going into top paying sectors, but makes no sense when a high proportion of grads are going into jobs they could have done with out the degree. it's produced a generation of heavily indebted graduates on average wages who find it even harder to buy houses etc. all of this caused the sector to expand hugely with mixed effects in terms of quality. when funding ran short universities were encouraged to adopt a financial model reliant on attracting overseas students as cash cows. and we then had the farce of the graduate visa, largely as a device to enable skint universities to recruit abroad - effectively selling a visa which allowed people to stay on after their degree all in the hope of eventually getting pltr. it was a tory wheeze to avert a funding crisis in HE and was a significant part of the boris wave, which has been hugely divisive. bliar's 50% was incredibly well intentioned but it has led on to an absolute mess and a sector which has grown too far and is financially unsustainable. at least now with the rise in interest rates USS isn't about to go bust, even if marginal institutions do fail. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:25 - Feb 4 with 272 views | Herbivore |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:22 - Feb 4 by J2BLUE |
That sounds like a yes?
Is it the government's job to be a force for change or is their job to represent the people who elected them?
I don't disagree with your first paragraph. I just think it's too easy to keep calling it the racist vote and suggesting the government should ignore it but if they do it drives people to Reform. No one with any sense wants Reform in government.
I do absolutely agree that the government should focus on educating people and highlighting the benefits immigration brings. It needs a positive campaign, not constant attacks condemning people as racist. Of course there are some people who will never change their minds. We can all think of 1-2 on here but for Reform to get in they will need moderate people to back them. Those are the people we need to target to make sure Reform do not get into power. |
Labour have spent their first 18 months in power wanging on about immigration and introducing Reform style policies and they are tanking in the polls. Perhaps a different approach is needed? It's not a binary of ignore the public or do exactly as they ask, there's a whole middle ground where you engage in debate and come up with evidence based policies that address some of the public's concerns without massively damaging the fabric of the country in the process. | |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:33 - Feb 4 with 225 views | lowhouseblue |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:11 - Feb 4 by Herbivore |
I don't think they should ignore them but a bit of grown up debate with the public about the benefits of immigration, why it's actually necessary to support our economy and ageing population, and such like wouldn't go amiss. The public narrative about immigration has become completely one sided and all of the research suggests that this influences and fuels negative public perceptions of immigration rather than the public discourse passively reflecting the public's views. |
that grown up debate involves identifying the benefits - which are very real - and then designing an immigration system that advances those benefits. so skilled people focused on sectors where we have shortages - health care etc. the huge and unprecedented rise in immigration in the past 5 years hasn't done that. setting aside legitimate refugees, the wave of immigration has brought large numbers of migrants who are not highly skilled, often not economically active, and will often be a permanent net draw on public funds and social housing. that style of immigration can't be justified in economic terms.
so a grown up debate would be great, but it can't be based on an absolutist defence of what has happened in the last 5 years. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:35 - Feb 4 with 218 views | Kievthegreat |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:59 - Feb 4 by J2BLUE |
Just asking the question...should governments ignore the population on things like immigration? I am asking because I often see things like this about the racist vote etc without any acknowledgement that, right or wrongly, poll after poll shows a majority of the country want immigration reduced.
Again, not getting into whether it is right or wrong. Just curious whether you think the government should ignore the current sentiment? |
Here's the thing though, immigration has reduced significantly. Net migration is at the lowest level since Covid and hasn't bottomed out yet. What does a Government do when the feelings of some of the population are contrary to facts? What about if the thing that those people want is harmful to the country/economy?
If Governments run purely on public sentiment, it shows it has no leadership. Political leadership isn't about following opinion polls, it's about making arguments to the electorate. Explain why immigration below a certain level is harmful, explain that without certain level, we'll have a large reduction in working age population and services and benefits like the triple lock will need to be cut. Stop hiding and lead. | | | |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:39 - Feb 4 with 185 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:22 - Feb 4 by J2BLUE |
That sounds like a yes?
Is it the government's job to be a force for change or is their job to represent the people who elected them?
I don't disagree with your first paragraph. I just think it's too easy to keep calling it the racist vote and suggesting the government should ignore it but if they do it drives people to Reform. No one with any sense wants Reform in government.
I do absolutely agree that the government should focus on educating people and highlighting the benefits immigration brings. It needs a positive campaign, not constant attacks condemning people as racist. Of course there are some people who will never change their minds. We can all think of 1-2 on here but for Reform to get in they will need moderate people to back them. Those are the people we need to target to make sure Reform do not get into power. |
"No one with any sense wants Reform in government". Yet they're currently polling with an 8-10 point lead. So should the government only be pandering to people with no sense, or trying to do what is best for the country/people?
I dunno. It's a good question. I'd like governments to protect us from the worse of ourselves. How they do that without compromising democracy, I don't know (e.g. should they have ignored the advisory Brexit referendum vote, which they could have constitutionally done? But had they done so they'd have been toast and even if they could have ignored it technically, it would also be fair to say it wouldn't have been in the spirit of the exercise).
Core to this is probably tackling disinformation in the press an online, better regulation of political lobbying, tackling dark money, all the things that are undermining democracy. That's probably having some of the largest negative impacts on us. Get all that right so people aren't being fed crap on a daily basis and being influenced by foreign/bad actors and they might start making better decisions for themselves and the rest of us. | |
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| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:43 - Feb 4 with 169 views | Kievthegreat |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:22 - Feb 4 by J2BLUE |
That sounds like a yes?
Is it the government's job to be a force for change or is their job to represent the people who elected them?
I don't disagree with your first paragraph. I just think it's too easy to keep calling it the racist vote and suggesting the government should ignore it but if they do it drives people to Reform. No one with any sense wants Reform in government.
I do absolutely agree that the government should focus on educating people and highlighting the benefits immigration brings. It needs a positive campaign, not constant attacks condemning people as racist. Of course there are some people who will never change their minds. We can all think of 1-2 on here but for Reform to get in they will need moderate people to back them. Those are the people we need to target to make sure Reform do not get into power. |
An MPs job is to represent peoples interests. That means sometimes you act according to peoples views, but if that view runs counter to their interest, or the interest of the country, MPs have an obligation to make and explain that decision or situation.
I doubt you'd have got a majority of people saying let's bail out the banks in 2008/9, but the government needed to make that decision. Opinions are important, but they don't override the responsibility that as MPs/Governments, you have more information and can make a more informed decision than someone answering a yougov poll. | | | |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 11:46 - Feb 4 with 153 views | DJR |
| Making the UK less attractive to international students has consequences on 10:59 - Feb 4 by J2BLUE |
Just asking the question...should governments ignore the population on things like immigration? I am asking because I often see things like this about the racist vote etc without any acknowledgement that, right or wrongly, poll after poll shows a majority of the country want immigration reduced.
Again, not getting into whether it is right or wrong. Just curious whether you think the government should ignore the current sentiment? |
We're talking in this thread though about university students, who aren't necessarily or automatically people who will stay in the long term.
In terms of the debate of immigration, it's always struck me as wrong that university students are part of the equation.
I got to know someone well at university from the Gambia. For many years he has worked in New York at the UN, and no doubt he looks favourably on Britain in view of his education here. | | | |
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