| Throw the book at Saints 06:45 - May 19 with 3020 views | alial |
If the outcome of Spygate 2.0 is a fine and a delayed points deduction, does it really serve as a deterrent going forward?
Rumours are Southampton will receive a 6 point deduction and a £4.5m fine. In comparison to the Leeds and Spygate 1.0 seems sufficient but in the wider context seems a classic case of the punishment being the “cost of doing business” to coin a financial phrase.
For argument sake let’s say Spurs somehow get relegated and next year finish in the play offs. It would be in their interest to do whatever they could to spy on opponents, knowing the punishment will a) not touch the balance sheet and b) will hope not to be in the Championship for a long time. The precedent will be set.
It’s the difference between “the promised land” and £195.5m or a 6 point deduction next season. I think most clubs, whilst not openly admitting it, would take the edge of knowing before a play off game:
- opponents line up (there’s a reason they get released at the same time)
- Any injuries
- Set pieces
- How a team is going to press
- Etc
Some people say “well what about diving, isn’t that cheating?” and yes, it is. But it a different form of cheating. It’s in the moment, it’s not premeditated. Spying on your opponents is premeditated. There’s no plan of “after 17 mins, I am going to take on my defender in the box and then dive” but in terms of Spygate… “We will book you into this hotel, they are training at this time, this is place to watch from…”.
The only deterrent to this happening is removing Southampton out of the play offs. Otherwise it just creates another problem for the EFL the next time this happens. Or they remove this as a rule because they can’t enforce a sufficient punishment.
The reported punishment makes sense if it was in the middle of the season, that is a deterrent. But in the play offs, this is not a deterrent, it’s not a fine… it’s a tax.
I think the book needs to be thrown at Southampton. |  | | |  |
| Throw the book at Saints on 07:37 - May 19 with 2200 views | TheMover |
I agree, the punishment creates no real deterrent.
Even if they decide that expulsion is not an option they should ban the appropriate people from football for a period. If the manager/club know they could be banned there would be more of a deterrent than a fine and a suspended points deduction. | | | |
| Throw the book at Saints on 07:50 - May 19 with 2117 views | NthQldITFC |
I wholeheartedly agree in principal - more and worse cheating is enabled every time you make a rule and then refuse to meaningfully enforce it.
I also agree in practice here, Soton should be denied promotion to the money league as the only meaningful punishment - because the preceding overrides the following:
But I'm not sure if the rules make sense because they are not practically manageable:
1. Clubs have different geographical/sight line restrictions at training grounds and some are effectively open to view from public footpaths etc.
2. It would be impractical to police casual observation/recording by members of the public and 'casual' passing on of at least some meaningful information through casual channels to the clubs involved.
Do such categorically difficult to define instances make it sensible to treat this as an offence at all? |  |
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| Throw the book at Saints on 08:00 - May 19 with 2047 views | Blue_In_Boston |
Diving, or deliberately getting an opponent sent off is more likely to win you an individual game rather than spying. Somehow that has become acceptable, the sooner gamesmanship, or clever play is called cheating the better. | | | |
| Throw the book at Saints on 08:38 - May 19 with 1918 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Throw the book at Saints on 07:37 - May 19 by TheMover |
I agree, the punishment creates no real deterrent.
Even if they decide that expulsion is not an option they should ban the appropriate people from football for a period. If the manager/club know they could be banned there would be more of a deterrent than a fine and a suspended points deduction. |
Good idea. Players get bans for bringing the game into disrepute, so so don’t see why staff can’t.
It’d be interesting to see the phone and GPS location data of the analyst(s) for this season too. It’d be naive to assume the only time they did it was when they got caught. Although presumably the EFL has no such authority to request that. |  |
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| Throw the book at Saints on 08:55 - May 19 with 1815 views | Wacko |
Playing devil's advocate but is there not something in the fact that they were in a public place? If Boro valued privacy they should have hidden their training ground better.
(I still think the principle is wrong and Southampton should be punished) | |
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| Throw the book at Saints on 08:56 - May 19 with 1802 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
I’m not sure where this, £4.5m and 6 points thing comes from.
The independent board hasn’t even met yet and they have the full range of punishments available, they dish it out, not the EFL.
So if it does turn out to be correct, it means a couple of things.
1. The independent board is not at all independent, it is led by the EFL and they have already decided the punishment, ergo, it’s corrupt.
2. Hull, who still don’t know who they are playing, could have been told last week instead of being held in limbo, having to prepare to play either team; meanwhile, Southampton have been preparing to face Hull, handing all the advantages to Southampton. Ergo, it’s corrupt.
So, I hope you are wrong about this punishment because if you are right, it’s outrageous. |  |
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| Throw the book at Saints on 09:01 - May 19 with 1774 views | Ryorry |
| Throw the book at Saints on 08:55 - May 19 by Wacko |
Playing devil's advocate but is there not something in the fact that they were in a public place? If Boro valued privacy they should have hidden their training ground better.
(I still think the principle is wrong and Southampton should be punished) |
I also think that will be used, unfortunately - Soton will have thrown a lot of money into the pockets of very clever lawyers to do a lot of wriggling from every imaginable angle. |  |
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| Throw the book at Saints on 09:04 - May 19 with 1749 views | iamatractorboy |
| Throw the book at Saints on 08:00 - May 19 by Blue_In_Boston |
Diving, or deliberately getting an opponent sent off is more likely to win you an individual game rather than spying. Somehow that has become acceptable, the sooner gamesmanship, or clever play is called cheating the better. |
Yes and although someone has said it is 'heat of the moment', the culture of diving absolutely is not. Managers do not discourage it, in fact it is probably the opposite. | | | |
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| Throw the book at Saints on 09:09 - May 19 with 1694 views | _CliveBaker_ |
Agree. Bias aside I genuinely think expulsion from the playoffs is the most appropriate punishment. Shouldn't underestimate how valuable the intel could've been in what are games of very fine margins. I never expected it to be the outcome and I still don't, the fine is always the most likely punishment but for the reasons you mention its not sufficient, I would also question how it benefits Boro who are the team disadvantaged. Do they get the £4.5m? |  | | |
| Throw the book at Saints on 09:13 - May 19 with 1662 views | mattyboar |
Personally, i think they should set an automatic 3-0 defeat for this offence. So if a team breaches the rule, as in viewing a training session within 72 hours of a fixture, then its a default defeat.
That is an easy precedent to pin now and in the future, and speaks to sporting integrity.
Appreciate that kicks them out, but tbh they deserve it and cannot argue that their actions weren't an attempt to gain a sporting advantage. That said, EFL should have established a punishment when they set the rule, not doing so is borderline negligent. [Post edited 19 May 9:32]
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| Throw the book at Saints on 09:28 - May 19 with 1558 views | franz_tyson |
| Throw the book at Saints on 08:00 - May 19 by Blue_In_Boston |
Diving, or deliberately getting an opponent sent off is more likely to win you an individual game rather than spying. Somehow that has become acceptable, the sooner gamesmanship, or clever play is called cheating the better. |
This is true. If Southampton have sent someone out to spy and they've used that info in their preparation then they're trying to gain some kind of advantage against the rules. However, every game we see this with diving, time wasting, dead ball grappling and trying to get players sent off, etc. Southampton should be penalised, but we've accepted so much cheating as 'part of the game' and trying to get any advantage. I'm truly not sure how much advantage Southampton gained anyway. Teams must have a Plan B and C if teams work them out. We all know teams study videos of opponents etc so I can't believe teams play just to whatever they learnt in the last 3 days of training. Individual players win personal duels, some don't, some nail passes ans crosses, some don't, some hit the target, some are like Azon. These are more crucial than watching a training session.
Yes, I do think Saints are cheats and should be punished, but I'm not sure how much they benefitted from all of this. And all teams have taken on all forms of cheating to gain even a 1% advantage so it's only a matter of time before they go that extra yard. | | | |
| Throw the book at Saints on 09:36 - May 19 with 1498 views | victorysquad |
They will bottle it. | |
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| Throw the book at Saints on 09:39 - May 19 with 1465 views | Vaughan8 |
Whilst I know this is cheating and is of course frowned upon and should be punished, I feel it's got blown way out of proportion now.
In Hindsight, them doing that had no effect on the games. Middlesborough failure to take chances in the first leg has nothing to do with this.
As others have said, the cheating on the pitch is far more obvious and far more likely to win games. | | | |
| Throw the book at Saints on 10:11 - May 19 with 1340 views | Ryorry |
| Throw the book at Saints on 09:39 - May 19 by Vaughan8 |
Whilst I know this is cheating and is of course frowned upon and should be punished, I feel it's got blown way out of proportion now.
In Hindsight, them doing that had no effect on the games. Middlesborough failure to take chances in the first leg has nothing to do with this.
As others have said, the cheating on the pitch is far more obvious and far more likely to win games. |
It’s certainly not been blown out of proportion, & it’s not just about ’boro - soton did this for other games too, and then had an extraordinarily good run after appointing a new manager whose m.o. it was.
It skewed the entire championship final table -> promotion to riches chances. [Post edited 19 May 10:18]
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| Throw the book at Saints on 10:18 - May 19 with 1301 views | Guthrum |
| Throw the book at Saints on 08:55 - May 19 by Wacko |
Playing devil's advocate but is there not something in the fact that they were in a public place? If Boro valued privacy they should have hidden their training ground better.
(I still think the principle is wrong and Southampton should be punished) |
That doesn't cancel out the prohibition in Rule 127, which states: "...no Club shall directly or indirectly observe (or attempt to observe) another Club's training session in the period of 72 hours prior to any match scheduled to be played between those respective Clubs."
It's the act of observing which is the offence, not where it takes place. If the images of someone who is apparently a Southampton staff member live-streaming, filming or photographing with his phone are genuine, then it appears to be an open-and-shut case. We can thank Marcelo Bielsa for that.
For that matter, were they on public land (e.g. a footpath), or someone else's private property adjoining the training area? |  |
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| Throw the book at Saints on 10:19 - May 19 with 1295 views | gainsboroughblue |
Four days till the final itself and poor Hull are probably doing two sets of tactical training drills because they STILL 100% don't know who they are playing and are totally innocent in all of this. This is the biggest scandal of the whole situation.
If Saints get a fine, so what? It'll be small change for the rewards gained.
Points deduction? Again, so what. They'll take the hit (and the cash) if they go up or could finish as low as 8th next year and have a shot at promotion if they don't.
Any punishment besides expulsion has no teeth but I really don't see the former happening. |  |
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| Throw the book at Saints on 10:25 - May 19 with 1266 views | Ryorry |
| Throw the book at Saints on 10:19 - May 19 by gainsboroughblue |
Four days till the final itself and poor Hull are probably doing two sets of tactical training drills because they STILL 100% don't know who they are playing and are totally innocent in all of this. This is the biggest scandal of the whole situation.
If Saints get a fine, so what? It'll be small change for the rewards gained.
Points deduction? Again, so what. They'll take the hit (and the cash) if they go up or could finish as low as 8th next year and have a shot at promotion if they don't.
Any punishment besides expulsion has no teeth but I really don't see the former happening. |
I doubt it’ll affect Hull as much as you think - if the decision is delayed then so is the final - they’ll still have several days to prepare - in fact they’re the only club of the three to know for sure that they’re in the final, so it may even give them the edge in terms of physical and mental preparation. | |
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| Throw the book at Saints on 10:36 - May 19 with 1215 views | _CliveBaker_ |
| Throw the book at Saints on 10:25 - May 19 by Ryorry |
I doubt it’ll affect Hull as much as you think - if the decision is delayed then so is the final - they’ll still have several days to prepare - in fact they’re the only club of the three to know for sure that they’re in the final, so it may even give them the edge in terms of physical and mental preparation. |
It will go ahead on Saturday and it'll be Hull vs. Saints.
I expect Hull have been preparing on that assumption. | | | |
| Throw the book at Saints on 10:51 - May 19 with 1142 views | Ryorry |
| Throw the book at Saints on 10:36 - May 19 by _CliveBaker_ |
It will go ahead on Saturday and it'll be Hull vs. Saints.
I expect Hull have been preparing on that assumption. |
I’d forgotten about the Wembley date restrictions, but assuming you’re right, I still think Hull have the advantage in terms of certainty of their status & therefore preparation - as long as they’ve not been spied on! | |
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| Throw the book at Saints on 10:53 - May 19 with 1127 views | southnorfolkblue |
| Throw the book at Saints on 08:38 - May 19 by Swansea_Blue |
Good idea. Players get bans for bringing the game into disrepute, so so don’t see why staff can’t.
It’d be interesting to see the phone and GPS location data of the analyst(s) for this season too. It’d be naive to assume the only time they did it was when they got caught. Although presumably the EFL has no such authority to request that. |
That may well happen as I think the FA can charge individual people separately to any action taken by the EFL. Fairly sure that a woman’s coach received a 12 month ban for this recently | |
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| Throw the book at Saints on 11:20 - May 19 with 1022 views | bsw72 |
| Throw the book at Saints on 10:51 - May 19 by Ryorry |
I’d forgotten about the Wembley date restrictions, but assuming you’re right, I still think Hull have the advantage in terms of certainty of their status & therefore preparation - as long as they’ve not been spied on! |
Pushed back to June 13th with a Midday kick off, double header with Harry Styles in the evening? |  | | |
| Throw the book at Saints on 11:23 - May 19 with 988 views | bsw72 |
| Throw the book at Saints on 10:11 - May 19 by Ryorry |
It’s certainly not been blown out of proportion, & it’s not just about ’boro - soton did this for other games too, and then had an extraordinarily good run after appointing a new manager whose m.o. it was.
It skewed the entire championship final table -> promotion to riches chances. [Post edited 19 May 10:18]
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It potentially skewed the table, there is no way to actually define or calculate how much of an advantage was actualy gained by it. | | | |
| Throw the book at Saints on 11:48 - May 19 with 887 views | victorysquad |
| Throw the book at Saints on 09:39 - May 19 by Vaughan8 |
Whilst I know this is cheating and is of course frowned upon and should be punished, I feel it's got blown way out of proportion now.
In Hindsight, them doing that had no effect on the games. Middlesborough failure to take chances in the first leg has nothing to do with this.
As others have said, the cheating on the pitch is far more obvious and far more likely to win games. |
I think the problem is it is difficult to put a number on what impact it had on the game. If it is proven to have had any benefit then surely they have to be thrown out?
You can’t say they cheated but it wasn't”t that bad. Else where do you draw the line on cheating in the future?
I think boro are going to have provide some evidence that showed something they did differently in this match was counteracted by southampton. Something they learned through spying [Post edited 19 May 11:53]
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| Throw the book at Saints on 12:34 - May 19 with 748 views | Vaughan8 |
| Throw the book at Saints on 10:11 - May 19 by Ryorry |
It’s certainly not been blown out of proportion, & it’s not just about ’boro - soton did this for other games too, and then had an extraordinarily good run after appointing a new manager whose m.o. it was.
It skewed the entire championship final table -> promotion to riches chances. [Post edited 19 May 10:18]
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Is there any proof to these other allegations of spying on other teams? Why wasn't this communicated earlier? Maybe i've missed this bit of news.
Problem is, it seems like its a complex case, but a decision needs to be made quickly.....! It looks like Middlesboro training ground can be viewed from a public place, if i've read correctly? If so it's going to be hard to prove anythingf and surely that is Southamptons's defence?
I can't see them throwing them out the playoffs now. | | | |
| Throw the book at Saints on 12:36 - May 19 with 736 views | Vaughan8 |
| Throw the book at Saints on 11:48 - May 19 by victorysquad |
I think the problem is it is difficult to put a number on what impact it had on the game. If it is proven to have had any benefit then surely they have to be thrown out?
You can’t say they cheated but it wasn't”t that bad. Else where do you draw the line on cheating in the future?
I think boro are going to have provide some evidence that showed something they did differently in this match was counteracted by southampton. Something they learned through spying [Post edited 19 May 11:53]
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I suppose my point is, there is so much cheating in football in every game, that seems to be acceptable.
I'm not sure how much was/is gained from viewing training unless teams are setting up completely differently etc. | | | |
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