| This is absolutely horrible from Reform 20:53 - Jun 26 with 9365 views | StokieBlue |
They have expanded their plans against EU nationals if they get into power:
"Announcing what he called the “migrants labour levy”, Robert Jenrick, Reform’s Treasury spokesperson, said employers would have to pay higher national insurance for non-UK nationals, as well as an annual fee that would be more for lower earners, citing the possibility of £3,750 for someone on the “national living wage”, a surcharge of about 15%."
"There would be no additional consideration given for EU nationals, even if they had been in the UK for decades, or had a UK national partner and children, Jenrick said, and his message for such people was that if they lost their job because of the levy they should leave."
"Both the new policies would require a renegotiation of the Brexit deal, with the possibility that the EU would penalise UK nationals living in the bloc as a reciprocal policy, or impose trade barriers."
"If you are in this country and you are not a British citizen, and you are somebody who will not be able to stay in the UK under a Reform government, then you should think of leaving the country."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk
SB
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 23:54 - Jun 26 with 1440 views | StokieBlue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 23:46 - Jun 26 by chantryblueboy |
I didn’t assume the role he was talking about was an entry level role but made a broader point about un/underemployment based on my experiences
You also haven’t read my point where I said it shouldn’t be applied as a blanket but hiring Brits should be incentivised
All I can go off is my own experience. There’s serious issues of foreign nationals who are here on sponsored visas being exploited in the audit industry at the moment, because they know if they don’t meet ridiculous ‘performance expectations’ (allow themselves to be exploited) they can be sacked and risk deportation. This contributes to horrible working environments and wage suppression. Obviously the ‘guilty party’ there is the firms that use evil tactics like this to be exploitative but ultimately it happens because it is easier for them to hire and exploit foreign workers on sponsored visas |
That's not what is being discussed though. What is being discussed is the fact that Reform want to penalise EU nationals who may have lived in this country for decades and have British family in a way which goes completely against the Brexit treaties.
They want to make it harder to employ these individuals and are pushing for them to leave:
"There would be no additional consideration given for EU nationals, even if they had been in the UK for decades, or had a UK national partner and children, Jenrick said, and his message for such people was that if they lost their job because of the levy they should leave."
This is despite the fact they may have worked in that job for many years and may have British kids.
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:01 - Jun 27 with 1392 views | Coastalblue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 23:54 - Jun 26 by StokieBlue |
That's not what is being discussed though. What is being discussed is the fact that Reform want to penalise EU nationals who may have lived in this country for decades and have British family in a way which goes completely against the Brexit treaties.
They want to make it harder to employ these individuals and are pushing for them to leave:
"There would be no additional consideration given for EU nationals, even if they had been in the UK for decades, or had a UK national partner and children, Jenrick said, and his message for such people was that if they lost their job because of the levy they should leave."
This is despite the fact they may have worked in that job for many years and may have British kids.
SB |
It's very hard to believe that they don't have people in the party whose own families could be broken up by this, let alone voters.
Ten years ago this would have been an absurd sketch on a satirical TV show, the fact they are actually talking about this is as you say, absolutely horrible.
Couple it with all the workers rights they are pledging to abolish and why on earth would anybody who's not very rich even give them a glance? |  |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:03 - Jun 27 with 1385 views | chantryblueboy |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 23:54 - Jun 26 by StokieBlue |
That's not what is being discussed though. What is being discussed is the fact that Reform want to penalise EU nationals who may have lived in this country for decades and have British family in a way which goes completely against the Brexit treaties.
They want to make it harder to employ these individuals and are pushing for them to leave:
"There would be no additional consideration given for EU nationals, even if they had been in the UK for decades, or had a UK national partner and children, Jenrick said, and his message for such people was that if they lost their job because of the levy they should leave."
This is despite the fact they may have worked in that job for many years and may have British kids.
SB |
Yeah, there is too much demand for jobs which is leading to mass un/underemployment of young Brits. Should we just have a generation of British people working in roles beneath their skills, or not at all, because it’s mean to address it?
You see it as penalising EU nationals, I see it as incentivising the hiring of young Brits which is necessary. I would question how close you are to young people who are actually affected by this? If there is anyone who has recently left school/uni, or parents of those in the same position, I would be interested to know how they feel about their prospects. Everyone I speak to feels things are pretty bleak. Addressing the supply of labour is probably pretty sensible |  | | |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:04 - Jun 27 with 1368 views | chantryblueboy |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 23:54 - Jun 26 by redrickstuhaart |
Why? |
Why should youth un/underemployment be addressed? Is that the question? | | | |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:06 - Jun 27 with 1350 views | MattinLondon |
Reform are absolute scum. |  | | |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:10 - Jun 27 with 1330 views | redrickstuhaart |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:04 - Jun 27 by chantryblueboy |
Why should youth un/underemployment be addressed? Is that the question? |
Thats not what anyone said.
The youth unemployment issues need to be addressed, but are not related to immigrants. | |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:14 - Jun 27 with 1309 views | chantryblueboy |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:10 - Jun 27 by redrickstuhaart |
Thats not what anyone said.
The youth unemployment issues need to be addressed, but are not related to immigrants. |
There is no effect on youth unemployment of net migration of 2.56 million people from 2020 to 2024
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:18 - Jun 27 with 1296 views | StokieBlue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:03 - Jun 27 by chantryblueboy |
Yeah, there is too much demand for jobs which is leading to mass un/underemployment of young Brits. Should we just have a generation of British people working in roles beneath their skills, or not at all, because it’s mean to address it?
You see it as penalising EU nationals, I see it as incentivising the hiring of young Brits which is necessary. I would question how close you are to young people who are actually affected by this? If there is anyone who has recently left school/uni, or parents of those in the same position, I would be interested to know how they feel about their prospects. Everyone I speak to feels things are pretty bleak. Addressing the supply of labour is probably pretty sensible |
Once again, not all jobs are for young people with no experience. You're cherry picking a scenario and ignoring the others. You keep saying "young Brits" as if every job is an entry level position - it's nonsense.
So essentially it seems you're all for splitting up families. In my opinion young Brits having one of their parents forced to leave the country is going to be incredibly bad for their mental health but you don't seem to even have considered that.
I am incredibly concerned about the job opportunities for younger people and yes I am close to people in that situation but that isn't the fault of EU nationals, it's the fault of companies reducing their positions and a move to AI. You're blaming the wrong people.
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:20 - Jun 27 with 1284 views | chantryblueboy |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:18 - Jun 27 by StokieBlue |
Once again, not all jobs are for young people with no experience. You're cherry picking a scenario and ignoring the others. You keep saying "young Brits" as if every job is an entry level position - it's nonsense.
So essentially it seems you're all for splitting up families. In my opinion young Brits having one of their parents forced to leave the country is going to be incredibly bad for their mental health but you don't seem to even have considered that.
I am incredibly concerned about the job opportunities for younger people and yes I am close to people in that situation but that isn't the fault of EU nationals, it's the fault of companies reducing their positions and a move to AI. You're blaming the wrong people.
SB |
I literally said about 3 posts ago that it was the fault of the companies, but that they are enabled by mass migration
I don’t see how you think bringing over 2.5 million people in since 2020 won’t have a knock on effect on the labour market. It’s nonsense | | | |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:21 - Jun 27 with 1280 views | redrickstuhaart |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:14 - Jun 27 by chantryblueboy |
There is no effect on youth unemployment of net migration of 2.56 million people from 2020 to 2024
Ok |
Again- not what was said.
Do some research on real stats and understand them, rather than accepting Big Nige's warm diarrhoea. | |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:22 - Jun 27 with 1276 views | Wacko |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 22:11 - Jun 26 by Freddies_Ears |
This policy would risk breaking up not just hundreds of thousands, but potentially millions, of families, due to simple racism and ignorance. |
Including, I presume, the German mother of Farage’s children | |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:23 - Jun 27 with 1271 views | chantryblueboy |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:21 - Jun 27 by redrickstuhaart |
Again- not what was said.
Do some research on real stats and understand them, rather than accepting Big Nige's warm diarrhoea. |
You said unemployment was not related to immigration. How can the labour market increase by 2.5 million, and that have no effect on unemployment? Seems like very simple supply and demand to me | | | |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:28 - Jun 27 with 1243 views | StokieBlue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:20 - Jun 27 by chantryblueboy |
I literally said about 3 posts ago that it was the fault of the companies, but that they are enabled by mass migration
I don’t see how you think bringing over 2.5 million people in since 2020 won’t have a knock on effect on the labour market. It’s nonsense |
I was replying to your specific post and in your reply you've once again neglected to engage with the majority of points in my post.
Perhaps we shouldn't have left the EU? In that case the immigration would have been far more steady as it was before plus our young people had the whole of the EU in which to look for suitable jobs.
Demonising people who have settled here, possibly for a long time, is not the right way to achieve what you want.
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:33 - Jun 27 with 1226 views | chantryblueboy |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:28 - Jun 27 by StokieBlue |
I was replying to your specific post and in your reply you've once again neglected to engage with the majority of points in my post.
Perhaps we shouldn't have left the EU? In that case the immigration would have been far more steady as it was before plus our young people had the whole of the EU in which to look for suitable jobs.
Demonising people who have settled here, possibly for a long time, is not the right way to achieve what you want.
SB |
Sorry you feel I have neglected to engage with your point. I am trying to address them individually. Hopefully this post is better structured.
I hate to break it to you but we have left the EU. I wasn’t old enough to vote in that referendum so I don’t know what you want me to do about it.
I don’t know who is demonising anyone. I just think the level of migration is unsustainable and contributes to un/underemployment and needs to be addressed. I don’t think applying a levy to some industries is a bad way to address this. I am aware that it would have negative consequences for some people | | | |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:38 - Jun 27 with 1196 views | redrickstuhaart |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:23 - Jun 27 by chantryblueboy |
You said unemployment was not related to immigration. How can the labour market increase by 2.5 million, and that have no effect on unemployment? Seems like very simple supply and demand to me |
Again, not what was said.
The youth unemployment issue has many roots. Amongst them are covid and the scarcity of proper mental health services. AS well as social media disinformation. | |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:41 - Jun 27 with 1186 views | chantryblueboy |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:38 - Jun 27 by redrickstuhaart |
Again, not what was said.
The youth unemployment issue has many roots. Amongst them are covid and the scarcity of proper mental health services. AS well as social media disinformation. |
Social media disinformation means that the girl I work with had to apply to 100 jobs just to get one? You seem to just be spitting out buzzwords with no meaning | | | |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 06:52 - Jun 27 with 1039 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:41 - Jun 27 by chantryblueboy |
Social media disinformation means that the girl I work with had to apply to 100 jobs just to get one? You seem to just be spitting out buzzwords with no meaning |
The point is there are lots and lots of factors behind why she had to apply to 100 jobs just to get one. You seem to have fallen for Reform's "It's all those nasty foreigners" dogwhistling. If you really care, do some proper research, learn about the consequences of what you're saying - the absolute inhumanity of splitting up families might be a start - and stop listening to lazy rhetoric designed to get you wound up by the wrong targets.
I'm scraping a living freelancing in the advertising industry because there isn't a lot of work about, but it hasn't once occurred to me that it might be foreigners taking the jobs. There are bigger things at play, as I'm sure there are in many other industries. Rather than accepting "it's foreigners" you could also look into who's saying it's foreigners and why they might be saying it. |  |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 07:59 - Jun 27 with 991 views | balcombeblue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 06:52 - Jun 27 by The_Flashing_Smile |
The point is there are lots and lots of factors behind why she had to apply to 100 jobs just to get one. You seem to have fallen for Reform's "It's all those nasty foreigners" dogwhistling. If you really care, do some proper research, learn about the consequences of what you're saying - the absolute inhumanity of splitting up families might be a start - and stop listening to lazy rhetoric designed to get you wound up by the wrong targets.
I'm scraping a living freelancing in the advertising industry because there isn't a lot of work about, but it hasn't once occurred to me that it might be foreigners taking the jobs. There are bigger things at play, as I'm sure there are in many other industries. Rather than accepting "it's foreigners" you could also look into who's saying it's foreigners and why they might be saying it. |
Labour could have helped avoid this situation by considering a bit more the implication of the minimum wage rise and the increase in NI. Personally, with no clear data, I think these two factors are bigger than migrant labour.
However, the Reform argument appears to be a little different and targets those who have been here and are established in the UK too. There seems to be a crass link between these people and the current levels of migration.
I'd add a couple more things that I think are significant factors.
The mass increase in people going to University since 2000. This left the UK short of specific skills and a host of young people who would be better off in the Labour market. I say better off as it would suit their skills better and leave them without the debt. But then New Labour seemed obsessed that this would improve social mobility.
Second, lots of NEETS will undoubtedly come from jobless families. That is a driving factor and self-perpetuates. Have levels of welfare established a group in society who are now stuck in the classic poverty trap? I think certain types of welfare keep people poor and this needs reform. |  | | |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 08:20 - Jun 27 with 946 views | lowhouseblue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:23 - Jun 27 by chantryblueboy |
You said unemployment was not related to immigration. How can the labour market increase by 2.5 million, and that have no effect on unemployment? Seems like very simple supply and demand to me |
you won't get far with this. there is a strange but fundamental axion held by some that any number of migrants is good and any type of migrant is good. challenging that is unacceptable. you can point to the impact of low skill arrivals in the labour market and you'll be told that they're all exclusively doctors or care workers. you can ask how net migration of nearly 3 million in a short period of years have been housed without affecting the housing crisis and you'll be told that we don't build enough homes. you'll be told that withholding leave to remain for people on care visas will damage the care sector, even though once someone has leave to remain there is no longer the condition that they must work in the care sector. you'll be told that migrants are all highly productive, but they won't explain the 1.4 million foreign nationals between 18 and 65 who are neets.
immigration being an unconditional good is just an article of faith. for what it's worth, the current government has done extremely well is moving to a good and sustainable level (long term at net migration at 100,000 plus a year and focused on skilled workers) and the newly announced sponsored refugee scheme appears, on the face of it, to be extremely positive. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 08:21 - Jun 27 with 944 views | Zx1988 |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 23:32 - Jun 26 by chantryblueboy |
Youth un/underemployment is ridiculous. New girl at work, just left Uni of Surrey with a degree in politics and economics had to apply for over 100 jobs to get one despite having a good education and having been in some form of employment since she was 16. And this is for an entry level position
Shouldn’t be applied as a blanket but incentivising the hiring of young Brits as opposed to foreign nationals is definitely necessary [Post edited 26 Jun 23:33]
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I think the opening up of university education has a lot to answer for.
Education is good and necessary, but not everyone needs a degree (or A-Levels, for that matter).
The more people have university degrees, the more university level jobs are required. The majority of graduates won't want to do their degree, only to end up in the sort of job that only requires GCSEs. Even those who do decide to 'drop down' run the risk of being seen as over-qualified, and being overlooked for 'lesser' roles.
It's not the fault of immigrants, it's the fault of 20+ years of evolving education policy. | |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 08:25 - Jun 27 with 923 views | Dubtractor |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:41 - Jun 27 by chantryblueboy |
Social media disinformation means that the girl I work with had to apply to 100 jobs just to get one? You seem to just be spitting out buzzwords with no meaning |
I'm not going to pretend to know much about the causes of high youth unemployment across a wide range of careers, as its not an area I'm really informed about.
However, what I do know that huge numbers of low paid immigrants do low paid, difficult, and often undesirable jobs at the business end of a lot of industrial processing in this country. Whether that is food production, waste management, manufacturing, logistics or whatever else. These are not jobs taken away from young brits, they are jobs filled by foreign labour because brits won't do it, and if you remove the foreign labour you'll struggle to replace it and the cost of everything will go up significantly.
Now, there is a separate point about the ethics of all that, but I can't be bothered to get into that detail right now!
You've given specific examples relevant to your working area, where foreign labour might be taking those entry level level jobs that are the essential stepping stone at the start of a career, and I'd agree that needs fixing if that is the case.
I guess what I'm saying is that, like everything else in this subject, demonising all foreigners is just a really dumb soundbite to appeal to certain parts of society. |  |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 08:29 - Jun 27 with 908 views | Dubtractor |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 08:20 - Jun 27 by lowhouseblue |
you won't get far with this. there is a strange but fundamental axion held by some that any number of migrants is good and any type of migrant is good. challenging that is unacceptable. you can point to the impact of low skill arrivals in the labour market and you'll be told that they're all exclusively doctors or care workers. you can ask how net migration of nearly 3 million in a short period of years have been housed without affecting the housing crisis and you'll be told that we don't build enough homes. you'll be told that withholding leave to remain for people on care visas will damage the care sector, even though once someone has leave to remain there is no longer the condition that they must work in the care sector. you'll be told that migrants are all highly productive, but they won't explain the 1.4 million foreign nationals between 18 and 65 who are neets.
immigration being an unconditional good is just an article of faith. for what it's worth, the current government has done extremely well is moving to a good and sustainable level (long term at net migration at 100,000 plus a year and focused on skilled workers) and the newly announced sponsored refugee scheme appears, on the face of it, to be extremely positive. |
Part of the issue with the debate is that it seems impossible to have a middle ground discussion on it. Like most debate these days, it seems like you have to be all or nothing at one end of the argument or the other. | |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 08:40 - Jun 27 with 890 views | lowhouseblue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 08:25 - Jun 27 by Dubtractor |
I'm not going to pretend to know much about the causes of high youth unemployment across a wide range of careers, as its not an area I'm really informed about.
However, what I do know that huge numbers of low paid immigrants do low paid, difficult, and often undesirable jobs at the business end of a lot of industrial processing in this country. Whether that is food production, waste management, manufacturing, logistics or whatever else. These are not jobs taken away from young brits, they are jobs filled by foreign labour because brits won't do it, and if you remove the foreign labour you'll struggle to replace it and the cost of everything will go up significantly.
Now, there is a separate point about the ethics of all that, but I can't be bothered to get into that detail right now!
You've given specific examples relevant to your working area, where foreign labour might be taking those entry level level jobs that are the essential stepping stone at the start of a career, and I'd agree that needs fixing if that is the case.
I guess what I'm saying is that, like everything else in this subject, demonising all foreigners is just a really dumb soundbite to appeal to certain parts of society. |
you're really comfortable with bringing in huge numbers of general unskilled migrant labour, not specific to particular roles, while we have getting on for a million neets? do we want a society on which being economically inactive and benefit dependent is ok as long as we can bring in someone cheaper from abroad? perhaps 'the cost of everything will go up' but the benefits bill would go down, and in terms of being able to fund public services that could be transformational fiscally. we have always had migrant routes for specific sectors and shortage roles - agriculture, food production etc - but the boris wave went way beyond that to huge numbers of general, unskilled people not linked to specific roles or sectors. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 08:44 - Jun 27 with 876 views | Dubtractor |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 08:40 - Jun 27 by lowhouseblue |
you're really comfortable with bringing in huge numbers of general unskilled migrant labour, not specific to particular roles, while we have getting on for a million neets? do we want a society on which being economically inactive and benefit dependent is ok as long as we can bring in someone cheaper from abroad? perhaps 'the cost of everything will go up' but the benefits bill would go down, and in terms of being able to fund public services that could be transformational fiscally. we have always had migrant routes for specific sectors and shortage roles - agriculture, food production etc - but the boris wave went way beyond that to huge numbers of general, unskilled people not linked to specific roles or sectors. |
I mean, if you completely ignore my third paragraph you could conclude that, yes.
And you wonder why people accuse you of dishonest debate on here. | |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 08:56 - Jun 27 with 841 views | lowhouseblue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 08:29 - Jun 27 by Dubtractor |
Part of the issue with the debate is that it seems impossible to have a middle ground discussion on it. Like most debate these days, it seems like you have to be all or nothing at one end of the argument or the other. |
my position is that immigration has been hugely beneficial to the uk, economically, socially and culturally. it is a distinctive thing about the uk that immigrants have been successfully integrated and immigration has historically had a very high level of public support. but that was based on a long period in which it ran at moderate levels, which were consistent with proper social integration, and in which skills and shortage sectors were emphasised. all of that was torn apart by the boris wave - it shifted to huge numbers, mass unskilled immigration and with a higher level economically inactive. integration was impossible, migrants increasingly joined exclusively migrant communities, the impact was uneven regionally, and the benefits and costs were distributed unevenly depending on class. it has led to a broad breakdown in public support (which was then just ignored) and has became highly divisive.
the current government has done the right things are we are heading back to the previous model - net immigration in the 100,000 plus range, an emphasis on shortage skills and attempts to properly manage 'illegal' immigration (inc the newly announced refugee sponsorship idea).
to me that seems like a 'middle ground' position. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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