| Totally agree. (n/t) on 12:13 - Aug 4 with 1087 views | Bloots |
| It’s got to the stage…. on 11:56 - Aug 4 by Dubtractor |
I'm not really sure how this thread has got to 4 pages tbh.
It's pretty straightforward in my view.
I (and others) think Liddle was a pretty crap individual who shared remarkably unpleasant views in his time.
Others seem to want to defend that based on views about free speech and Liddle being a provocateur, which they are entitled to do, even if I disagree.
I'm not sure there is too much value in either side of that debate trying to convince the other that they are wrong, as we have seen over the last 4 pages.
Don't get me wrong, there are issues that are worth arguing about, Rod Liddle isn't one of them! [Post edited 4 Aug 13:52]
|
|  |
| Keaton, Kint, McManus, Fenster and Hockney. |
|  |
| More importantly…. on 12:15 - Aug 4 with 1079 views | Bloots |
| It’s got to the stage…. on 11:46 - Aug 4 by DJR |
The LAS are a bit too right wing for my liking.  |
….you’re too intelligent, tolerant and reasonable.
Bleedin’ commie! | |
| Keaton, Kint, McManus, Fenster and Hockney. |
| |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:18 - Aug 4 with 1069 views | Trequartista |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 11:46 - Aug 4 by vapour_trail |
He was employed, well remunerated, and had a significant platform, right up to his final days.
In no way was he cancelled. You just seem to like throwing the idea out there that people are being cancelled. No idea why. |
I've clearly explained what i mean by cancelled. It does not mean unable to find ANY work. Obviously organisations that don't subscribe to cancel culture are not going to cancel him. |  |
| |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:18 - Aug 4 with 1052 views | Mullet |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:18 - Aug 4 by Trequartista |
I've clearly explained what i mean by cancelled. It does not mean unable to find ANY work. Obviously organisations that don't subscribe to cancel culture are not going to cancel him. |
So you don’t mean cancelled at all then? |  |
| |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:19 - Aug 4 with 1047 views | balcombeblue |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 11:57 - Aug 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Depends what you call abuse.
And I don't think the views expressed by both of those are simply "out of the norm on here" and just "expressing opinions". That's massively watering down what many decent people would think is vile stuff. And the addition of "on here" suggests that the decent people of TWTD are the problem and/or an anomaly, which i don't think is fair or true.
Should such views not be challenged?
There's no gang on here, that I know of. If someone gets piled on it's usually because they've said something out of order. And I don't think posting inflamatory stuff anonymously on a football messageboard is particularly bold or brave either. |
Do you think I'm not a decent person? Rod Liddle's columns were enjoyed by huge numbers of people from various walks of life and backgrounds. Some of what he wrote was vile, some very challenging, some I didn't agree with, some I did. You seem to think I have pushed his opinions which I haven't at all. I am not racist. I don't support paedophiles. Also, unlike him I am not left wing. I'm not working class and so on.
I said I enjoyed his columns. The 'attacks' on here have been ad hominem. That's why on the substance of the articles cited I didn't agree with him, but so what?
The Millwall posts were not an article. They seem racist to me. He said he was hacked, that's all I quoted back.
We are worse off for not having a writer like him. I enjoy reading columns from Owen Jones, Douglas Murray, Andrew Doyle, Yasmin ALibiah-Brown and many others. |  | | |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:28 - Aug 4 with 1022 views | Trequartista |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:07 - Aug 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Hmm. I tend to think of "cancelled" meaning they can't find gainful employment, not just that one organisation no longer employs them.
I don't know an awful lot about him, so I asked Chat;
"Rod Liddle was not permanently barred from the BBC, but he was forced to give up one of the BBC's most senior editorial jobs in 2002.
At the time, Liddle was the editor of BBC Radio 4's flagship Today programme. Simultaneously, he was writing a newspaper column for The Guardian. One column, in which he made strongly partisan comments about supporters of the Countryside Alliance, led BBC management to conclude that it undermined the corporation's requirement for political impartiality from someone in such a senior news role.
The BBC gave him a choice:
stop writing the opinion column, or
step down as editor of Today.
Liddle chose to resign as editor rather than give up the column. The BBC itself stressed at the time that he had resigned rather than been sacked outright.
Afterwards:
He continued a successful career as a newspaper columnist, writing for publications including The Sunday Times, The Spectator and The Sun.
He did make occasional appearances on BBC programmes over the years, so he wasn't "cancelled" in the sense of being blacklisted from the broadcaster."
If that's correct it doesn't sound like he was cancelled to me. |
The Sunday Times, The Spectator and The Sun are all right of centre. He wasn't going to reprising any of his articles in the Guardian any time soon.
I would also say it's not completely down to employment. It's also if you've crossed certain lines, say for example you've said something racist, homophobic, bigoted etc. Now of course this is a bad thing as I've already said earlier on that he's said and done reprehensible things. But once a line is crossed there is no rehabilitation for that person. The dye is cast.
I can probably sum it up better in saying this - It's no longer a person who has done some bad things, it's a bad person. [Post edited 4 Aug 13:47]
| |
| |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:30 - Aug 4 with 1014 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:19 - Aug 4 by balcombeblue |
Do you think I'm not a decent person? Rod Liddle's columns were enjoyed by huge numbers of people from various walks of life and backgrounds. Some of what he wrote was vile, some very challenging, some I didn't agree with, some I did. You seem to think I have pushed his opinions which I haven't at all. I am not racist. I don't support paedophiles. Also, unlike him I am not left wing. I'm not working class and so on.
I said I enjoyed his columns. The 'attacks' on here have been ad hominem. That's why on the substance of the articles cited I didn't agree with him, but so what?
The Millwall posts were not an article. They seem racist to me. He said he was hacked, that's all I quoted back.
We are worse off for not having a writer like him. I enjoy reading columns from Owen Jones, Douglas Murray, Andrew Doyle, Yasmin ALibiah-Brown and many others. |
I don't know you, and haven't ever really noticed you as a poster either, so I've no idea if you're decent or not. But you've said rather more than "I enjoyed his columns".
I've responded to a couple of your pops at Stokers, neither of which points you've come back on. I can only speak as I find and you seem to have wilfully misconstrued what Stokers has said, and cherrypicked the best bits of what you have said.
I think your general point that we need challenging writers is fair, but the examples I've seen of Liddle in this thread (not to mention how he treated his new wife) seem to me to cross a line. |  |
| |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:35 - Aug 4 with 991 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:28 - Aug 4 by Trequartista |
The Sunday Times, The Spectator and The Sun are all right of centre. He wasn't going to reprising any of his articles in the Guardian any time soon.
I would also say it's not completely down to employment. It's also if you've crossed certain lines, say for example you've said something racist, homophobic, bigoted etc. Now of course this is a bad thing as I've already said earlier on that he's said and done reprehensible things. But once a line is crossed there is no rehabilitation for that person. The dye is cast.
I can probably sum it up better in saying this - It's no longer a person who has done some bad things, it's a bad person. [Post edited 4 Aug 13:47]
|
Well we have different definitions of cancelled.
He wasn't even cancelled by the BBC - he resigned and had worked for them since that time as well.
If it's not down to employment then essentially you seem to be describing "not liked by some people". In which case everyone apart from David Attenborough is cancelled! | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:45 - Aug 4 with 953 views | Trequartista |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:35 - Aug 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Well we have different definitions of cancelled.
He wasn't even cancelled by the BBC - he resigned and had worked for them since that time as well.
If it's not down to employment then essentially you seem to be describing "not liked by some people". In which case everyone apart from David Attenborough is cancelled! |
Imagine a new word for what i have defined as cancelled was created. Would you still disagree, or are you only disputing the semantics of the word? | |
| |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:49 - Aug 4 with 938 views | Ryorry |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 11:23 - Aug 4 by DJR |
My main point is that Balcombeblue is getting abuse on this thread, and Benters gets it all the time, just for holding a view that is out of the norm on here, and I imagine this discourages others who are not so bold and brave as them to express opinions on TWTD.
That is not healthy for debate in what is supposed to be a liberal democracy.
But increasing intolerance seems to be the way we are heading.
And don't forget, there is much more to the individual than their political views.
Indeed, Justin Webb, very much a liberal, described Liddle as brilliant, kind and funny.
[Post edited 4 Aug 11:29]
|
FGS, can you seriously not see that there is a MASSIVE difference between holding different views on veganism, varying shades of party politics etc. etc. etc. - and saying it's OK for a writer to publish a view which *actively encourages paedophiles and enables paedophilia to be perpetrated in future*?
Not just for you, but for all many on this thread who sadly haven't got it yet -
Viewing pornographic images of children online is not a harmless, un-connected activity with no consequences. If people didn't view those, there would be no market for them, those kids would remain relatively anonymous, and paedophilia would be reduced.
Afew years ago. a man living in a remote rural area in Yorkshire was convicted of having such images on his devices. Parents in the area were terrified that he might have illicitly, secretly, taken photos of their kids for such use.
Paedophiles reading that Guardian article written by Liddle aren't going to stop & think "oh, perhaps he just wrote it to be contrarian" - they're going to use it as something which okays their activities - any excuse, they don't need much.
There's positing challenging views. And in a completely different league, as in Sunday pub compared with the EPL, there's the national publication of something which *actively enables and encourages the perpetration of crimes of the most appalling kind in the future*. |  |
| |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:59 - Aug 4 with 878 views | DJR |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:49 - Aug 4 by Ryorry |
FGS, can you seriously not see that there is a MASSIVE difference between holding different views on veganism, varying shades of party politics etc. etc. etc. - and saying it's OK for a writer to publish a view which *actively encourages paedophiles and enables paedophilia to be perpetrated in future*?
Not just for you, but for all many on this thread who sadly haven't got it yet -
Viewing pornographic images of children online is not a harmless, un-connected activity with no consequences. If people didn't view those, there would be no market for them, those kids would remain relatively anonymous, and paedophilia would be reduced.
Afew years ago. a man living in a remote rural area in Yorkshire was convicted of having such images on his devices. Parents in the area were terrified that he might have illicitly, secretly, taken photos of their kids for such use.
Paedophiles reading that Guardian article written by Liddle aren't going to stop & think "oh, perhaps he just wrote it to be contrarian" - they're going to use it as something which okays their activities - any excuse, they don't need much.
There's positing challenging views. And in a completely different league, as in Sunday pub compared with the EPL, there's the national publication of something which *actively enables and encourages the perpetration of crimes of the most appalling kind in the future*. |
When have I said I support what he says?
And if you have an issue, take it up with the Guardian, not me. |  | | |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:04 - Aug 4 with 849 views | Ryorry |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 12:59 - Aug 4 by DJR |
When have I said I support what he says?
And if you have an issue, take it up with the Guardian, not me. |
You, on the previous page on this thread -
"My main point is that Balcombeblue is getting abuse on this thread, and Benters gets it all the time, just for holding a view that is out of the norm on here, and I imagine this discourages others who are not so bold and brave as them to express opinions on TWTD.
That is not healthy for debate in what is supposed to be a liberal democracy.
But increasing intolerance seems to be the way we are heading.
And don't forget, there is much more to the individual than their political views.
Indeed, Justin Webb, very much a liberal, described Liddle as brilliant, kind and funny."
And the Guardian didn't publish anything he wrote after 2003, whereas you are still making excuses for him & anyone else also making excuses for him writing that particular article, right up to today. [Post edited 4 Aug 13:10]
| |
| |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:09 - Aug 4 with 835 views | DJR |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:04 - Aug 4 by Ryorry |
You, on the previous page on this thread -
"My main point is that Balcombeblue is getting abuse on this thread, and Benters gets it all the time, just for holding a view that is out of the norm on here, and I imagine this discourages others who are not so bold and brave as them to express opinions on TWTD.
That is not healthy for debate in what is supposed to be a liberal democracy.
But increasing intolerance seems to be the way we are heading.
And don't forget, there is much more to the individual than their political views.
Indeed, Justin Webb, very much a liberal, described Liddle as brilliant, kind and funny."
And the Guardian didn't publish anything he wrote after 2003, whereas you are still making excuses for him & anyone else also making excuses for him writing that particular article, right up to today. [Post edited 4 Aug 13:10]
|
That doesn't support what he says. | | | |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:13 - Aug 4 with 808 views | Ryorry |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:09 - Aug 4 by DJR |
That doesn't support what he says. |
And so you still continue to make excuses for him & those others also making excuses for him right up till today - I'm referring to that particular Guardian article he wrote which was condemned by Jenni Murray for enabling paedophilia. | |
| |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:14 - Aug 4 with 802 views | balcombeblue |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:09 - Aug 4 by DJR |
That doesn't support what he says. |
For the avoidance of doubt. I didn't support what Liddle wrote on every topic either. I've said that a few times. | | | |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:27 - Aug 4 with 758 views | itfcjoe |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 11:57 - Aug 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Depends what you call abuse.
And I don't think the views expressed by both of those are simply "out of the norm on here" and just "expressing opinions". That's massively watering down what many decent people would think is vile stuff. And the addition of "on here" suggests that the decent people of TWTD are the problem and/or an anomaly, which i don't think is fair or true.
Should such views not be challenged?
There's no gang on here, that I know of. If someone gets piled on it's usually because they've said something out of order. And I don't think posting inflamatory stuff anonymously on a football messageboard is particularly bold or brave either. |
But this is the point, you are deciding who are "decent people" and who aren't, because their views align with what is the norm on here |  |
| |
| This. Times about a gazillion. (n/t) on 13:34 - Aug 4 with 725 views | Bloots |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:32 - Aug 4 by itfcjoe |
Totally understand why, but you'll be a loss to those threads too - but must be very frustrating having people wilfully misinterpreting your posts and arguing against constructed points that they've claimed you've made
A massive lack of tolerance of differing viewpoints, people have to get hammered into a position on everything or be a pariah who can't comment on any thread without it being linked back to any view they have previously expressed until their re-education is complete |
| |
| Keaton, Kint, McManus, Fenster and Hockney. |
| |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:42 - Aug 4 with 675 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:27 - Aug 4 by itfcjoe |
But this is the point, you are deciding who are "decent people" and who aren't, because their views align with what is the norm on here |
I would assume that ‘decent’ people would be appalled at the thought of battering a pregnant partner and also going through with a marriage but cutting the honeymoon short because of a bit on the side half your age*. Never mind the constant demonising of minority and vulnerable groups in society. None of those things strike me as things a decent person would defend or overlook
Edit - cut the bit out about polarisation online because that was just a guess. I’ve no idea if he’s getting responses according to political lines.
(*The age isn’t necessarily a problem in its own, but together with his sexualised writings about school kids *could* be a red flag). [Post edited 4 Aug 13:53]
|  |
| |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:47 - Aug 4 with 653 views | leitrimblue |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:27 - Aug 4 by itfcjoe |
But this is the point, you are deciding who are "decent people" and who aren't, because their views align with what is the norm on here |
I would suggest that definition of decent people is quite easy in this case.
And what constitutes 'decent people' sorta aligns with societal and cultural norms rather then 'what is the norm on here'
For clarification, pedophilia and the support of pedophilia, battering your pregnant partner, racism etc are not generally seen as socially acceptable. 'Decent people' will be disgusted by Liddles actions and writings and will probably express that.
Others may choose to defend Liddle, this is their choice, but I would suggest it's societal norms not Flash in this instance who is deciding who are decent people. |  | | |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:48 - Aug 4 with 653 views | Ryorry |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:32 - Aug 4 by itfcjoe |
Totally understand why, but you'll be a loss to those threads too - but must be very frustrating having people wilfully misinterpreting your posts and arguing against constructed points that they've claimed you've made
A massive lack of tolerance of differing viewpoints, people have to get hammered into a position on everything or be a pariah who can't comment on any thread without it being linked back to any view they have previously expressed until their re-education is complete |
If you're referring to me, I most certainly have *not* "wilfully misinterpreted" DJR's posts, simply went on what he himself wrote, which *does* make excuses for those making excuses for Liddle.
I would normally agree with what he wrote about the need to go for the ball not the man etc. & people fearing to express "against the crowd" opinions about socio-politics etc. (unless of course unacceptable because racist, homophobic or similar) - but the difference here, which to me is clear and obvious, but apparently isn't to a few others - is that publishing articles saying that viewing online pornographic images of children is ok because "only contrarian" is ENABLING such crimes going forward.
Publishing articles enabling hate crimes is not ok - illegal in fact. Why anyone should take a different view re the publication of articles enabling paedophilia, baffles me. | |
| |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:56 - Aug 4 with 612 views | lowhouseblue |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 11:42 - Aug 4 by DJR |
Interestingly, the article was in the Guardian but he would probably struggle to get it published these days, although there would be nothing to stop him publishing it on a website.
Over the years there has undoubtedly been a change of attitude in this area.
Indeed, I remember 40 odd years ago reading Lolita and not thinking there was anything wrong about doing so because I was reading it as a well-regarded book of literature. But these days I might question whether I should even buy it. And if I did read it in public, I'd probably have to use a brown cover. [Post edited 4 Aug 11:51]
|
and nobody mention harriet harman and the nccl. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 14:01 - Aug 4 with 590 views | itfcjoe |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:42 - Aug 4 by Swansea_Blue |
I would assume that ‘decent’ people would be appalled at the thought of battering a pregnant partner and also going through with a marriage but cutting the honeymoon short because of a bit on the side half your age*. Never mind the constant demonising of minority and vulnerable groups in society. None of those things strike me as things a decent person would defend or overlook
Edit - cut the bit out about polarisation online because that was just a guess. I’ve no idea if he’s getting responses according to political lines.
(*The age isn’t necessarily a problem in its own, but together with his sexualised writings about school kids *could* be a red flag). [Post edited 4 Aug 13:53]
|
Ok - but there are plenty of people in the public eye who have beaten their wife and basically seen as national treasures like Gazza, or Phil Tufnell just from the world of sport.
And many more people who have had affairs, who have left partners, we won't know the reasons for them.
I think there is a massive difference between people being able to condem certain actions, as anyone would, and just write someone off as someone who should never be in decent society or listened to ever again
If everytime the Beatles came up, all that was spoken about was John Lennon's treatment of Cynthia then it would miss a lot out - that's not to say things should be overlooked or ignored but I personally can't abide the piousness of it all - let he is without sin etc | |
| |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 14:08 - Aug 4 with 553 views | balcombeblue |
| Rod Liddle dead at 66 on 13:56 - Aug 4 by lowhouseblue |
and nobody mention harriet harman and the nccl. |
I did!!!! But it was some way up the thread.
I still can’t find anyone supporting the article on paedophiles? Just supporting the right to write it. Then I go on to make a wider point that I enjoyed reading his articles.
The condemnation he received for this article and its bringing to the publics’s attention I would hope had a benefit, even if we’ll never be able to tell. His crass use of an old fashioned thought experiment in philosophy I can’t agree with.
I should probably address the point above. I haven’t called Stokie out on anything other than the way he’s described me. I haven’t done the same to him and won’t. But if I feel condescended or bullied (may be a little strong) then why shouldn’t I point that out? | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
