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Question for those who've supported town since the 70's 18:18 - Feb 14 with 2287 views

Do you think Modern Football and the way Youngsters can be poached is different to years past?

I supported town just as Burley took over, and I can remember seeing some quality youngsters coming through, we had the same when Royle was here, Magilton did etc, players like Ambrose, Bent, Dyer, Scowcroft, Bramble, Burley was homegrown himself of course and you'll prob know of others from the Alf and Bobby years.

BUT, how good has our current crop been in the past handful of years in comparison to previous years... Are town now struggling not just because of financial differences but because we aren't seeing top quality youngsters appearing.

Genuine question, would be good to gather people's thoughts.

I would add, I appreciate we have the likes of Bishop etc, Andre etc, But how 'good' are they exactly in comparison, is i guess what I mean

[Post edited 14 Feb 2021 18:22]

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Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 18:29 - Feb 14 with 2236 views

SuperCoops

I think the biggest difference is money. Players are more keen to chase money and there is a far greater movement of players. The line between success and failure is very thin now too and there is a lot more at stake.

I think there was more loyalty then, but the set ups and moveability of clubs was far smaller. But there was smaller squads and less competition.

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 18:38 - Feb 14 with 2207 views

Dennyx4

The key difference now is the money that is available. Talented youngsters are offered life changing salaries to join the bigger clubs, which the lower league teams are unable to match.

And it is not really a gamble for the bigger teams, as they make most of the money back, by loaning the young players out at a fee.

If we were in the Premier League, we may be able to keep hold of the top talent, like we did back in the day, but not whilst we are in League One.

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 18:45 - Feb 14 with 2184 views

Pendejo

Don't think there's a simple answer to that.

Let's face it in the 70s we were second only to Liverpool in terms of consistency so can't recall us missing out on many players.

As things declined we missed out on the likes of Donawa, Fox and Gordon... then Slater.

Robson brought thru Burley, Beattie, Butcher, Osman, Wark, Brazil, Gates, Osbourne, Woods, Whymark, McCall, Geddis, Turner, Parkin

Ferguson - Hallworth, Stockwell, Dozzell, Cranson, Gernon, Steggles, D 'Avray etc.

As I understand it a certain premier league club based in London offers kid's parents a £60k annual contract as standard to get them to sign up...

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Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 18:49 - Feb 14 with 2178 views

bobbyramsey

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 18:38 - Feb 14 by Dennyx4

Where is all this top talent we have produced recently? The Prem and Championship are hardly littered with ex-Town starlets.

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 18:49 - Feb 14 with 2176 views

SmithersJones

When you look back you have to conclude that the quality of scouting for most big clubs was shocking, which meant a team like us could gain a competitive advantage by being good at it. In Robson’s time there were actually very few local young players coming through but we were able to recruit from Scotland, Carlisle, the north east etc. The idea now that, say, Eric Gates wouldn’t have been spotted by a host of clubs nearer to his home than us is laughable.

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 19:01 - Feb 14 with 2161 views

Lesta_Tractor

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 18:49 - Feb 14 by bobbyramsey
Where is all this top talent we have produced recently? The Prem and Championship are hardly littered with ex-Town starlets.

I think Ben Knight is still at Man City and Charlie Brown was at Chelsea until last month, aren't there a couple of youngsters at Arsenal who were poached from us?

	1:23:47, 38:26
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Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 19:04 - Feb 14 with 2148 views

Lesta_Tractor

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 19:01 - Feb 14 by Lesta_Tractor
I think Ben Knight is still at Man City and Charlie Brown was at Chelsea until last month, aren't there a couple of youngsters at Arsenal who were poached from us?

Harry Clarke and Marcelo Flores were poached by Arsenal..

	1:23:47, 38:26
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Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 21:34 - Feb 14 with 2043 views

bobbyramsey

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 19:04 - Feb 14 by Lesta_Tractor
Harry Clarke and Marcelo Flores were poached by Arsenal..

But they don't exactly fall into the same category of the players mentioned by the OP.

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 21:51 - Feb 14 with 2016 views

southnorfolkblue

Difficult to say because it was such a different era where players were paid based on what they were achieving as opposed to potential, so poaching was probably less of an issue. On the other hand you were able to scout under the noses of other clubs, given the number of youngsters that we recruited from places like Glasgow and Carlisle.

As to youngsters that came through the ranks...Beattie, Burley, Wark, Brazil to name 4. Needless to say the current crop aren’t fit to lace their boots.

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Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 22:31 - Feb 14 with 1989 views

Epiphone

I’m sure I recall seeing somewhere that in his whole spell here (13 years?) Sir Bobby averaged just over one new signing per Season!The rest of the three great sides he built were home grown,very different times,I know,but quite some achievement.

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 23:44 - Feb 14 with 1954 views

norfsufblue

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 18:29 - Feb 14 by SuperCoops
I think the biggest difference is money. Players are more keen to chase money and there is a far greater movement of players. The line between success and failure is very thin now too and there is a lot more at stake. I think there was more loyalty then, but the set ups and moveability of clubs was far smaller. But there was smaller squads and less competition.

Quite simply.. i think it was when freedom of contract began in 1977 that small clubs began to lose out to bigger ones , but it was in 1995 under the bosman ruling that changed football in favour of the biggest clubs who could offer life changing salaries from which small clubs had decreasing ability to protect their investments in players

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 05:13 - Feb 15 with 1852 views

Lesta_Tractor

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 21:34 - Feb 14 by bobbyramsey
But they don't exactly fall into the same category of the players mentioned by the OP.

Fair point but 20 years ago they would have been given at least a season or two to develop here before being bought by a bigger club

[Post edited 15 Feb 2021 11:59]

	1:23:47, 38:26
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Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 09:52 - Feb 15 with 1736 views

Harlestonblue

Bobby Robson emphasised the fact that ITFC would only prosper with a great youth set up. A Geordie himself with contacts in the game he employed scouts in the North East, Scotland and, presumably Carlisle (Beattie, Geddis, Turner) Others have correctly identified these locations too.
The name John Carruthers springs to mind as the Scottish scout, and Ron Gray as the head of the operation.. Wark, Burley and Brazil, what a trio of finds in Scotland!
We were years ahead of other clubs in terms of scouting prowess, but, of course, others copied us and caught up.
I believe that under the present system we are limited to picking up youngsters within a 50 mile radius of the acedemy centres. Hence we seem to recruit a lot of Essex lads from Colchester, Brentwood, Billericay etc. Bury St. Edmunds is proving to be a good source too!
I don't believe we have had any younsters from the North or Scotland for decades but please correct me if I am wrong.
We have let some slip through the net though, Nick Pope for one and, in earlier years, Gary Stanley, Louis Donowa and Ruel Fox. The last 2 correctly identified earlier.

[Post edited 15 Feb 2021 9:55]

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 12:04 - Feb 15 with 1683 views

Radlett_blue

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 09:52 - Feb 15 by Harlestonblue

[Post edited 15 Feb 2021 9:55]

Spot on. Town now can't recruit players to their academy from outside our area, which puts us at a big disadvantage, as does having Norwich 50 miles away.
We have to realise that British players have to be way better these days to make it in the PL. Back in the 80s, 99% of players came from the British isles. Now, most PL clubs only start a handful of British players (sometimes none).
I think our academy has become near pointless as the best talent will be poached by bigger clubs for derisory compensation. We are unlikely to produce a Connor Wickham to be sold for £8m these days. Adopting the Brentford type model makes far more sense, but that would involve Town having a proper football strategy, which has been completely absent under the Evans ownership.

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Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 13:32 - Feb 15 with 1650 views

itfcjoe

It's about opportunities, and one of the things that has really hurt us is injuries to our top starlets

The England youth setup is probably the best in the world currently, across Talent ID, talent levels - some of the youth teams are exceptional, and littered with players from Man City and Chelsea in particular, but also the other big clubs.

I haven't got the stats to hand, but we are more than punching our weight with regards to representation, and have a record Category 1 academies would be proud of....

Teddy Bishop - 2 England call ups when he broke through - littered with injuries

Andre Dozzell - England regular from U16-U20 - missed over a year through injury

Ben Morris - lots of caps at U17 and U19 level - recently done his cruciate for a second time

Dylan Crowe - lots of caps, lots of injury problems

Tristin Nydam - U19 and U20 call ups, currently been injured for 18 months

Jack Lankester - very close to a call up, missed out and then missed 18 months

Flynn Downes - call ups and mostly stayed fit, probably our best player

Zak brown - couple of caps at U16 level, not really had any opportunities since despite good goalscoring record

Nick Hayes - Number of call ups, subsequently released a bit harshly in my view

Obviously Ben Knight and Marcelo Flores were incredibly highly rated and we lost them too

Highly talented youngsters need runs in the team, but we've been so short termist they haven't got them - even recently Dobra gets a couple of games, and he's replaced by Luke Thomas. Thomas has done very little so far, if he was a youth team player he wouldn't be getting many more chances, because he's a loan signing he'll be persisted with to play himself into form

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Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 14:03 - Feb 15 with 1613 views

southnorfolkblue

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 18:49 - Feb 14 by SmithersJones

Beattie ended up with us because Liverpool failed/forgot to pick him up from Lime Street station. Sir Bob made absolutely sure we didn’t make the same mistake

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Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 14:37 - Feb 15 with 1579 views

Meadowlark

The players who are home-grown who go on to be really great players are those who are given the opportunity, thrown into the first team when it is deemed they are good enough, and then left there to develop. Not put in then taken out because they are too young or cannot play two games in a week. An eighteen-year-old cannot play two games in a week but a thirty-year-old can? What nonsense.
Our youngsters should be playing and we should not be getting in players on loan unless it's a real dire emergency.
Yes, they will make the odd mistake, but so what. Rather our own make a mistake rather than an overpaid mercenary or a Premier cast-off learning at our expense.

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 15:38 - Feb 15 with 1542 views

Radlett_blue

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 13:32 - Feb 15 by itfcjoe

I don't think playing in these England age group teams is much of an indication that a player is going to really "make it" as a pro as I believe most of the young players from the top clubs don't participate in these squads. See Dean Bowditch (who still had a good career as a 3rd tier player).

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Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 15:53 - Feb 15 with 1516 views

itfcjoe

Question for those who've supported town since the 70's on 15:38 - Feb 15 by Radlett_blue
I don't think playing in these England age group teams is much of an indication that a player is going to really "make it" as a pro as I believe most of the young players from the top clubs don't participate in these squads. See Dean Bowditch (who still had a good career as a 3rd tier player).

All the top players from top clubs participate in these squads, and Dean Bowditch was in the England youth squads 20 odd years ago - things have moved on massively at that level with regards to Talent ID especially, even from when Connor Wickham was playing at that level 10-12 years ago

Players in these England squads is a big deal, not many Cat 2 clubs are supplyign any

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