Forum | So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. by bluelagos

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So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. 10:11 - Nov 23 with 2693 views

bluelagos

That's all sorted then.

Poll:

This new lockdown poll - what you reckon?

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 10:27 - Nov 23 with 1935 views

SlippinJimmyJuan

Like a red rag to a bull.

I'm sure the next 6 months will be very uneventful throughout the UK...

Poll:

What is your milk of choice?

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 10:30 - Nov 23 with 1923 views

GlasgowBlue

They made a bit of a slip up with the timing of the announcement. Had they waited until the day after England win the World Cup it would have been the ultimate trolling.

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So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 10:33 - Nov 23 with 1922 views

bluelagos

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 10:30 - Nov 23 by GlasgowBlue
They made a bit of a slip up with the timing of the announcement. Had they waited until the day after England win the World Cup it would have been the ultimate trolling.

Suspect that might be some wait tbf

Poll:

This new lockdown poll - what you reckon?

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:03 - Nov 23 with 1891 views

Guthrum

As the law stands, that is the case. The Scottish Parliament gave all that responsibility to Westminster in 1707. It hasn't been given back.

In reality, this legal challenge was a bit "weasel words". A formal referendum might notionally be considered non-binding, but such things have always carried considerable weight. One wonders whether a No result would have been afforded the same gravitas as a Yes one by the present Scottish government.

That having been said, it doesn't smack much of confidence in their position by Westminster if they refuse the right to poll the populace.

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So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:13 - Nov 23 with 1870 views

MattinLondon

I don’t understand why they want another referendum. They lost the referendum a few years ago (and not by a small margin) and all of the posts since then have been not been in favour of independence.

Just seems that the dogma of independence clouds the minds of the SNP blinking their eyes to reality.

Saying that if I was Scottish, or live up there, I would probably want independence as well.

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:43 - Nov 23 with 1827 views

DJR

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:13 - Nov 23 by MattinLondon
I don’t understand why they want another referendum. They lost the referendum a few years ago (and not by a small margin) and all of the posts since then have been not been in favour of independence. Just seems that the dogma of independence clouds the minds of the SNP blinking their eyes to reality. Saying that if I was Scottish, or live up there, I would probably want independence as well.

I think a lot of this is driven by the SNP membership. And don't forget that after Brexit but before Covid, support for independence did gain the majority. However, I don't get the impression Sturgeon really wants a referendum at this stage, so I imagine the Supreme Court decision suits her very well.

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:45 - Nov 23 with 1819 views

EdwardStone

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:13 - Nov 23 by MattinLondon
I don’t understand why they want another referendum. They lost the referendum a few years ago (and not by a small margin) and all of the posts since then have been not been in favour of independence. Just seems that the dogma of independence clouds the minds of the SNP blinking their eyes to reality. Saying that if I was Scottish, or live up there, I would probably want independence as well.

SNP suffer from the same USP as Brexit Party/UKIP

By making a single finite issue their sole reason for existence they have a built-in redundancy if/when they acheive their goal.

Of course SNP are going to want and endless series of IndyRefs, it is pretty much the only thing that keeps their supporters moist..... I suggest one a month or maybe even one a week , not so a much a "Once in a Generation" decision, more an "Every Tuesday"

I also admire their intellectual flexibility in wanting away from UK because they can't abide being told what to do by an overbearing alien Govt......while at the same time professing undying love for EU because "We are stronger Together"

I kind of view SNP's visceral hatred of England in the same way as Col U fans' hatred of ITFC.... disappointing, slightly uncomfortable and yet also kind of funny

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:46 - Nov 23 with 1814 views

J2BLUE

Could still hold an unofficial one. Would be very interesting if the will of the people was to leave but the UK government was blocking it.

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So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:51 - Nov 23 with 1791 views

DJR

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:45 - Nov 23 by EdwardStone

I am not sure you can describe it as hatred of England. I think there is also a large romantic streak. If there is an anger, it is being ruled for much of the last 40 years by Tory governments, and having Brexit foisted on them, events that have happened because of the actions of English voters.

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:52 - Nov 23 with 1789 views

bluelagos

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:46 - Nov 23 by J2BLUE
Could still hold an unofficial one. Would be very interesting if the will of the people was to leave but the UK government was blocking it.

That's basically what the Catalans did - and the Spanish promptly put a few of their leaders in prison, which is a novel approach to democracy.

Poll:

This new lockdown poll - what you reckon?

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:57 - Nov 23 with 1761 views

MattinLondon

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:45 - Nov 23 by EdwardStone

True, not sure whether the Scottish Parliament can be handed additional powers (not sure what it can or cannot do). Could an independent-lit option be an alternative?

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:01 - Nov 23 with 1749 views

Swansea_Blue

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 10:33 - Nov 23 by bluelagos
Suspect that might be some wait tbf

It's 2362 and Nicola Sturgeon the 47th has just announced she plans to challenge the 2022 Supreme Court ruling.

Poll:

Do you think Pert is key to all of this?

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:01 - Nov 23 with 1750 views

EdwardStone

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:51 - Nov 23 by DJR
I am not sure you can describe it as hatred of England. I think there is also a large romantic streak. If there is an anger, it is being ruled for much of the last 40 years by Tory governments, and having Brexit foisted on them, events that have happened because of the actions of English voters.

I think there many many English people who are utterly fed up with what the Tories have done to our fair land.

I don't really know any Indy /SNP supporters who are romantics, I think they are more Braveheart fans....furious and overwhelmed by the humiliations and suffering heaped upon them from Westminster. Maybe we mix in different circles.

Mel Gibson has much to answer for.......

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:10 - Nov 23 with 1732 views

Churchman

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:57 - Nov 23 by MattinLondon
True, not sure whether the Scottish Parliament can be handed additional powers (not sure what it can or cannot do). Could an independent-lit option be an alternative?

I would make the countries of the U.K. more autonomous, but linked for overarching things like defence, security, policing, trade deals, healthcare etc with a Parliament for that sort of thing. A sort of federation. That would mean England having its own independent Parliament which could decide on its own affairs without external influence.

Independent-lite, to use your term.

Alternatively, the SNP are the dominant force in Scotland by a mile. They want independence so there’s no need for a referendum. Just grant it and wish them well. I’m sure I’ve read Jimmy Krankie will turn the next Election into that anyway.

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:16 - Nov 23 with 1712 views

DJR

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:01 - Nov 23 by EdwardStone
I think there many many English people who are utterly fed up with what the Tories have done to our fair land. I don't really know any Indy /SNP supporters who are romantics, I think they are more Braveheart fans....furious and overwhelmed by the humiliations and suffering heaped upon them from Westminster. Maybe we mix in different circles. Mel Gibson has much to answer for.......

I said a romantic streak, and I speak as someone with Scottish parents who has fully bought into it all (the Corries, Caledonia etc), and has never seen Braveheart. Surely, you can't deny that romanticism plays a part in the Scottish psyche, just as I believe it does with the Irish? This is not to say that there are not genuine grievances/issues that play a much larger part in the desire for independence.

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:20 - Nov 23 with 1697 views

MattinLondon

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:10 - Nov 23 by Churchman

That’s what I would do as well but maybe with each Parliament having their own say in terms of policing and healthcare. Possibly have a central pot for defence spending etc. Not sure if this were to happen whether projects like Trident would happen.

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:23 - Nov 23 with 1674 views

Bluedandy

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:51 - Nov 23 by DJR
I am not sure you can describe it as hatred of England. I think there is also a large romantic streak. If there is an anger, it is being ruled for much of the last 40 years by Tory governments, and having Brexit foisted on them, events that have happened because of the actions of English voters.

An estimated 36% of SNP voters backed Brexit ... Scottish separatism and EU membership for an independent Scotland are not one and the same.

Many Scottish Unionists are very pro-EU membership but not at the expense of breaking up the UK.

Like all divisive nationalists the monomaniacal SNP leader doesn't do nuance, but her endless punching up Braveheart narrative really doesn't reflect reality.

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:25 - Nov 23 with 1652 views

DJR

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:57 - Nov 23 by MattinLondon
True, not sure whether the Scottish Parliament can be handed additional powers (not sure what it can or cannot do). Could an independent-lit option be an alternative?

I think anything will be tinkering at the margins. The UK government is not going to give up control of, say, migration which is very much an issue in Scotland whose population has barely increased since the war, when it has increased in England by about 12 million.

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:26 - Nov 23 with 1650 views

WeWereZombies

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:10 - Nov 23 by Churchman

Suggestions of a Federal Britain have surfaced in a few areas over the last year or so, I find it appealing at the moment but the biggest snag is the island of Ireland where many do not want to be labelled British and regard people with a Scottish, English or Welsh background who live there as interlopers, which is a shame as I think the suggestion gives the best hope for the reunification of Ulster as well as Ireland. If the right framework was in place it could also allow Scotland and the six counties of Ulster currently within the United Kingdom the freedom to become members of the European Union if they so wished.

By the way calling the politician with the best eye for detail (a point that is even made by Scottish Conservatives) Jimmie Krankie can undermine your opinion more often than it gets a cheap laugh.

Poll:

What was in Wes Burns' imaginary cup of tea ?

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:27 - Nov 23 with 1649 views

SpruceMoose

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:01 - Nov 23 by EdwardStone
I think there many many English people who are utterly fed up with what the Tories have done to our fair land. I don't really know any Indy /SNP supporters who are romantics, I think they are more Braveheart fans....furious and overwhelmed by the humiliations and suffering heaped upon them from Westminster. Maybe we mix in different circles. Mel Gibson has much to answer for.......

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So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:27 - Nov 23 with 1645 views

ArnoldMoorhen

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 11:13 - Nov 23 by MattinLondon
I don’t understand why they want another referendum. They lost the referendum a few years ago (and not by a small margin) and all of the posts since then have been not been in favour of independence. Just seems that the dogma of independence clouds the minds of the SNP blinking their eyes to reality. Saying that if I was Scottish, or live up there, I would probably want independence as well.

My impression, living in Edinburgh for two and a bit years, is that Sturgeon needs to keep pressure on, and be seen to do something, to maintain impetus and momentum. There are divisions within the SNP around both personalities and strategy.

The previous Referendum was won by the "No to Independence" side by appeal to the economic benefits brought about by both the Union and EU membership. The second of those is seen as a broken promise by many in Scotland, including some who voted "No" in the last Referendum.

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:39 - Nov 23 with 1610 views

DJR

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:23 - Nov 23 by Bluedandy
An estimated 36% of SNP voters backed Brexit ... Scottish separatism and EU membership for an independent Scotland are not one and the same. Many Scottish Unionists are very pro-EU membership but not at the expense of breaking up the UK. Like all divisive nationalists the monomaniacal SNP leader doesn't do nuance, but her endless punching up Braveheart narrative really doesn't reflect reality.

You're basically saying Scotland should just accept its lot. And are using the rhetoric of the Daily Mail to support your position.

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 13:22 - Nov 23 with 1538 views

Bluedandy

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 12:39 - Nov 23 by DJR
You're basically saying Scotland should just accept its lot. And are using the rhetoric of the Daily Mail to support your position.

And you're basically using a childish rhetorical device, randomly linking the Daily Mail to smear an alternative perspective.

I'm saying that a significant section of the SNP voter base supported leaving the EU.

It's just a plain fact that you'd never hear from Sturgeon because Brexit is her justification for IndyRef2.

As I'm sure you're aware too, the result of the 2014 referendum was not legally conditional on the UK remaining part of the EU.

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 13:33 - Nov 23 with 1506 views

DJR

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 13:22 - Nov 23 by Bluedandy

It wasn't me that reverted to the language that you used in your last paragraph which is hardly a balanced way to win an argument.

The 2014 referendum certainly wasn't legally conditional, but it was very much morally conditional given the way the EU argument was used by the pro-Unionists.

So the Scots need permission to hold an Indy ref. on 15:10 - Nov 23 with 1447 views

BlueNomad

Interesting that so many in England wanted the end of one Union but not another. The outcome of the Brexit referendum gives fuel to the Scot's demands as there was a clear remain vote up there.

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