| 21,000 season ticket sales. 09:27 - May 30 with 6520 views | EssexBloo |
Where does that rank with the rest of the championship? Behind the relegated clubs and Boro/Sunderland?
Does this have any indication on budgets for the season or, with TV Money, owner investment and parachute fees is it a bit irrelevant? |  | | |  |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:47 - May 30 with 5629 views | xrayspecs |
For Town, the increased ST sales will likely not have much impact on our overall budget. We averaged 26k in the league last season and at best, as not all away teams will use their full allocation, could average 27-28k next season.
The STs are sold at a discount to match day sales, so selling more of them actually reduces revenue. So potential increase in revenue if average attendance increase but offset by more fans securing a discount on match day sales.
The £8m TV money and whatever our owners are allowed to invest will be a bigger impact than ticket sales.
For Leeds, Leicester and Soton, the parachute payments will be key but a lot depends on how much of their salary costs they can shed by offloading players and/or relegation clauses. Leicester look like they are in a real financial mess. | | | |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:53 - May 30 with 5587 views | LegendofthePhoenix |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:47 - May 30 by xrayspecs |
For Town, the increased ST sales will likely not have much impact on our overall budget. We averaged 26k in the league last season and at best, as not all away teams will use their full allocation, could average 27-28k next season.
The STs are sold at a discount to match day sales, so selling more of them actually reduces revenue. So potential increase in revenue if average attendance increase but offset by more fans securing a discount on match day sales.
The £8m TV money and whatever our owners are allowed to invest will be a bigger impact than ticket sales.
For Leeds, Leicester and Soton, the parachute payments will be key but a lot depends on how much of their salary costs they can shed by offloading players and/or relegation clauses. Leicester look like they are in a real financial mess. |
I believe the transfer window opens on June 10th. Think I read somewhere that we are still under the more lenient L1 rules for a week or two before FFP kicks in, do you know if that's correct? |  |
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| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:53 - May 30 with 5567 views | baxterbasics |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:47 - May 30 by xrayspecs |
For Town, the increased ST sales will likely not have much impact on our overall budget. We averaged 26k in the league last season and at best, as not all away teams will use their full allocation, could average 27-28k next season.
The STs are sold at a discount to match day sales, so selling more of them actually reduces revenue. So potential increase in revenue if average attendance increase but offset by more fans securing a discount on match day sales.
The £8m TV money and whatever our owners are allowed to invest will be a bigger impact than ticket sales.
For Leeds, Leicester and Soton, the parachute payments will be key but a lot depends on how much of their salary costs they can shed by offloading players and/or relegation clauses. Leicester look like they are in a real financial mess. |
Oh Leicester's bill must be hoooooge for this level. They might manage one season but if they don't bounce straight back, agreed they may find themselves in big trubs. |  |
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| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:56 - May 30 with 5551 views | xrayspecs |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:53 - May 30 by LegendofthePhoenix |
I believe the transfer window opens on June 10th. Think I read somewhere that we are still under the more lenient L1 rules for a week or two before FFP kicks in, do you know if that's correct? |
I do not know, it is an interesting question though.
I had assumed that seasons, football club accounts, and transfer windows were aligned, so would be surprised if there is a loophole. If one did exist then I would have expected this to have been a thing and for clubs to have signed lots of players early in the window for fees, which is not normally the case.
For the Champ it is salaries that are the bigger issue, so signing someone now on big wages could still create a problem for us. [Post edited 30 May 2023 10:03]
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| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 10:04 - May 30 with 5471 views | HighgateBlue |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:53 - May 30 by LegendofthePhoenix |
I believe the transfer window opens on June 10th. Think I read somewhere that we are still under the more lenient L1 rules for a week or two before FFP kicks in, do you know if that's correct? |
Yes, the club's management will surely have considered a cash injection once it was confirmed that we were promoted, but whilst we were still a league one side. They may well not have done it for a million reasons, but they would be mad not to have considered it. League One's rules encourage reasonably balanced budgets, but do not encourage any kind of level playing field, as cash can be splurged in by benefactors with impunity. |  | | |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 10:11 - May 30 with 5422 views | RonFearonsHair |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 10:04 - May 30 by HighgateBlue |
Yes, the club's management will surely have considered a cash injection once it was confirmed that we were promoted, but whilst we were still a league one side. They may well not have done it for a million reasons, but they would be mad not to have considered it. League One's rules encourage reasonably balanced budgets, but do not encourage any kind of level playing field, as cash can be splurged in by benefactors with impunity. |
The main thing for me is that we now have a professional setup who will know the regulations to the finest detail and will have created a joined-up plan accordingly, rather than us all hoping that Lee O’Neill can remember where he saved the email. |  | | |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 10:37 - May 30 with 5274 views | Guthrum |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:53 - May 30 by LegendofthePhoenix |
I believe the transfer window opens on June 10th. Think I read somewhere that we are still under the more lenient L1 rules for a week or two before FFP kicks in, do you know if that's correct? |
ITFC's accounts are made up to 30th June, so anything spent up to that date will go into 2022-23 rather than 2023-24. However, fees and wages are not handed over in one lump sum, but spread over several years of installments. Thus counting for the date that actually happens.
In the Championship, FFP losses are on a three-year rolling basis. So we can spend a lot more this season and ease back in the following two (if still there). Plus, of course, we can put money now in against the higher income we'll be receiving over the year. [Post edited 30 May 2023 10:40]
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| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 11:40 - May 30 with 5048 views | BlueRaider |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:53 - May 30 by LegendofthePhoenix |
I believe the transfer window opens on June 10th. Think I read somewhere that we are still under the more lenient L1 rules for a week or two before FFP kicks in, do you know if that's correct? |
I think we are under the L1 rules until 30th June, that's the official end of the season | |
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| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 12:39 - May 30 with 4838 views | xrayspecs |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 11:40 - May 30 by BlueRaider |
I think we are under the L1 rules until 30th June, that's the official end of the season |
I had a quick skim and the rules regarding losses appear to be tied to the club accounting periods. The league stipulate that club accounts must be prepared for a 12 month period with an end date between 31 May and 31 July. So if I understand correctly, then we remain under L1 rules up to the end of June when our accounts for the year end, and Champ rules from 1 July.
If a loophole exists for clubs to invest in significant transfer fees between the opening of the window (10 June) and 30 June (in our case), then it also follows that there is a disincentive to sell players until 1 July so that any income falls into the next financial year and can be used to offset costs. My gut instinct is that this is not a thing but happy to be corrected by anyone who knows how this works in practice. | | | |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 13:36 - May 30 with 4638 views | Vegtablue |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 12:39 - May 30 by xrayspecs |
I had a quick skim and the rules regarding losses appear to be tied to the club accounting periods. The league stipulate that club accounts must be prepared for a 12 month period with an end date between 31 May and 31 July. So if I understand correctly, then we remain under L1 rules up to the end of June when our accounts for the year end, and Champ rules from 1 July.
If a loophole exists for clubs to invest in significant transfer fees between the opening of the window (10 June) and 30 June (in our case), then it also follows that there is a disincentive to sell players until 1 July so that any income falls into the next financial year and can be used to offset costs. My gut instinct is that this is not a thing but happy to be corrected by anyone who knows how this works in practice. |
The EFL will judge our 2021/22 and 2022/23 losses in accordance with Championship rules, so the only financial incentive to completing transfers in June will be for the 2025/26 season (the first when 22/23 losses are no longer considered). The L1 FFP criteria is designed to be more stringent than the Championship's really, as you must comply with the former while in the division and then your last two seasons will be retrospectively assessed according to the latter when promoted. | | | |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 14:39 - May 30 with 4394 views | xrayspecs |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 13:36 - May 30 by Vegtablue |
The EFL will judge our 2021/22 and 2022/23 losses in accordance with Championship rules, so the only financial incentive to completing transfers in June will be for the 2025/26 season (the first when 22/23 losses are no longer considered). The L1 FFP criteria is designed to be more stringent than the Championship's really, as you must comply with the former while in the division and then your last two seasons will be retrospectively assessed according to the latter when promoted. |
Thanks. That makes sense.
The 21/2 Town financial accounts show an operating loss of £12.6m while also reporting that during the same financial year GC subscribed to 55m shares in the club for £19.25m (note 21 to the accounts).
The 21/2 finanical accounts also states (note 26) that post year end the club have received a further £17.96m from GC for as yet unalloted shares. So this second capital investment will appear in the 22/3 accounts, when I would expect us to post a similar operating loss to the 21/2 season.
EDITED:
What I do not completely understand is how investments by GC are taken into account when determining the £39m three year cumulative FFP loss limit. Will these shareholder investments be used to offset the 21/2 and 22/3 operational losses, so creating additional spending headroom? Or, as I believe, are they simply covering the operating cash outflows each year, which are capped at £39m over three seasons?
EDIT: last para [Post edited 30 May 2023 14:58]
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| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 14:46 - May 30 with 4349 views | jayessess |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 13:36 - May 30 by Vegtablue |
The EFL will judge our 2021/22 and 2022/23 losses in accordance with Championship rules, so the only financial incentive to completing transfers in June will be for the 2025/26 season (the first when 22/23 losses are no longer considered). The L1 FFP criteria is designed to be more stringent than the Championship's really, as you must comply with the former while in the division and then your last two seasons will be retrospectively assessed according to the latter when promoted. |
Surely not?
Can't see that the Championship can have different rules for its different divisions then retrospectively apply the rules from one division to two seasons in a different division. Would be a recipe for total chaos! |  |
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| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 16:02 - May 30 with 4141 views | Vegtablue |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 14:46 - May 30 by jayessess |
Surely not?
Can't see that the Championship can have different rules for its different divisions then retrospectively apply the rules from one division to two seasons in a different division. Would be a recipe for total chaos! |
Them's the rules. https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/efl-regulations/appe
SCMP is designed to be stricter and EFL clubs will be aware the intention is to further restrict spending, not enable them to exceed the £13m upper threshold loss limit. The upper limit for an assessment period in which a Championship club was in the PL is £35m, thereby reflecting the different rules by which PL clubs are bound. You don't join the Championship with a clean slate. | | | |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 16:14 - May 30 with 4114 views | SheffordBlue |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 16:02 - May 30 by Vegtablue |
Them's the rules. https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/efl-regulations/appe
SCMP is designed to be stricter and EFL clubs will be aware the intention is to further restrict spending, not enable them to exceed the £13m upper threshold loss limit. The upper limit for an assessment period in which a Championship club was in the PL is £35m, thereby reflecting the different rules by which PL clubs are bound. You don't join the Championship with a clean slate. |
So if we want to spend more than is allowed we just need to get our top transfer target to change his name by deed poll to "Community Development Expenditure" and that one won't count....... [Post edited 30 May 2023 16:15]
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| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 16:33 - May 30 with 4052 views | Vegtablue |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 16:14 - May 30 by SheffordBlue |
So if we want to spend more than is allowed we just need to get our top transfer target to change his name by deed poll to "Community Development Expenditure" and that one won't count....... [Post edited 30 May 2023 16:15]
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I think you've got it 😂 | | | |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 21:53 - May 30 with 3731 views | jayessess |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 16:02 - May 30 by Vegtablue |
Them's the rules. https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/efl-regulations/appe
SCMP is designed to be stricter and EFL clubs will be aware the intention is to further restrict spending, not enable them to exceed the £13m upper threshold loss limit. The upper limit for an assessment period in which a Championship club was in the PL is £35m, thereby reflecting the different rules by which PL clubs are bound. You don't join the Championship with a clean slate. |
Not sure where you're reading that League One seasons count retrospectively for the Championship?
Only reference to promotion/relegation I can see is Article 5.1 but that's about what happens when you leave the division not when you enter it. | |
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| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 22:13 - May 30 with 3684 views | Vegtablue |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 21:53 - May 30 by jayessess |
Not sure where you're reading that League One seasons count retrospectively for the Championship?
Only reference to promotion/relegation I can see is Article 5.1 but that's about what happens when you leave the division not when you enter it. |
It's all covered in the rules and I don't wish this to become too long, put I'll paste a couple of sections.
"1.1.15 P&S Calculation means, save as indicated below, the aggregation of a Club’s Adjusted Earnings Before Tax for T, T-1 and T-2."
T-1 refers to last year's accounts. T-2 refers to two years prior.
"2.1 Each Club shall by 1 March in each Season submit to The League:
2.1.1 copies of its Annual Accounts for T-1 (and T-2 if these have not previously been submitted to The League)"
Every* club is bounded by the same rules, new entrant or longstanding sufferer. Those needing to file T-2 submissions will be those recently joining the league, with all others having already filed. Loss thresholds are detailed in part 3. "The League" refers to the EFL limit.
*Hence why reference to promotion and relegation is limited. | | | |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 00:43 - May 31 with 3481 views | Vegtablue |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 14:39 - May 30 by xrayspecs |
Thanks. That makes sense.
The 21/2 Town financial accounts show an operating loss of £12.6m while also reporting that during the same financial year GC subscribed to 55m shares in the club for £19.25m (note 21 to the accounts).
The 21/2 finanical accounts also states (note 26) that post year end the club have received a further £17.96m from GC for as yet unalloted shares. So this second capital investment will appear in the 22/3 accounts, when I would expect us to post a similar operating loss to the 21/2 season.
EDITED:
What I do not completely understand is how investments by GC are taken into account when determining the £39m three year cumulative FFP loss limit. Will these shareholder investments be used to offset the 21/2 and 22/3 operational losses, so creating additional spending headroom? Or, as I believe, are they simply covering the operating cash outflows each year, which are capped at £39m over three seasons?
EDIT: last para [Post edited 30 May 2023 14:58]
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Correctamundo. GC investments importantly raise our loss limit to £39m, but they aren't considered a revenue stream and so don't alter our profit/loss. In any season where equity injections aren't made to cover a club's losses, their loss limit for that season reduces from £13m to £5m, so there will presumably be a club or two in the Championship operating with a loss limit of £15m, as opposed to our £39m.
In respect to our financial accounts and the EFL's profit and sustainability calculations, there are areas of expenditure that are excluded from the latter. We will provide 'adjusted earnings before tax' (our P&S calculation) to the EFL, which will hopefully be less than the figures in our published accounts. Details of deductible costs are found in part 1 of the rules. | | | |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 07:16 - May 31 with 3306 views | MJallday |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:53 - May 30 by baxterbasics |
Oh Leicester's bill must be hoooooge for this level. They might manage one season but if they don't bounce straight back, agreed they may find themselves in big trubs. |
A quick google suggests this
Jamie Vardy signed a 2 year / £14,560,000 contract with the Leicester City, including an annual average salary of £7,280,000. In 2022, Vardy will earn a base salary of £7,280,000, while carrying a cap hit of £7,280,000.
Assuming that applies to 23/24 then just his wages are rediculous - especially when compared to our total bill
There will be others as well. |  |
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| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:30 - May 31 with 3102 views | jayessess |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 22:13 - May 30 by Vegtablue |
It's all covered in the rules and I don't wish this to become too long, put I'll paste a couple of sections.
"1.1.15 P&S Calculation means, save as indicated below, the aggregation of a Club’s Adjusted Earnings Before Tax for T, T-1 and T-2."
T-1 refers to last year's accounts. T-2 refers to two years prior.
"2.1 Each Club shall by 1 March in each Season submit to The League:
2.1.1 copies of its Annual Accounts for T-1 (and T-2 if these have not previously been submitted to The League)"
Every* club is bounded by the same rules, new entrant or longstanding sufferer. Those needing to file T-2 submissions will be those recently joining the league, with all others having already filed. Loss thresholds are detailed in part 3. "The League" refers to the EFL limit.
*Hence why reference to promotion and relegation is limited. |
Not sure that's how I'd interpret the rules as written there? They're clumsily written - "the league" is used interchangeably to mean all three EFL leagues, then just the Championship, then just League One/League Two - so there's ambiguity. But there's no explicit reference to accounts submitted under the League One rules being subjected to the same rules as the Championship retrospectively. | |
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| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:32 - May 31 with 3098 views | the_toff |
Ours were capped at 21,000 so it's probably not a reasonable comparison anyway. I'm sure we could've sold a lot more had we wanted to. | | | |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:50 - May 31 with 3049 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:32 - May 31 by the_toff |
Ours were capped at 21,000 so it's probably not a reasonable comparison anyway. I'm sure we could've sold a lot more had we wanted to. |
We've sold closer to 22 I gather. | | | |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:52 - May 31 with 3038 views | PhilTWTD |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:50 - May 31 by PrideOfTheEast |
We've sold closer to 22 I gather. |
I'm sure that's right, they capped it when they knew they were passing 21,000 with the applications they'd already received and with plenty still to process. |  | | |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:57 - May 31 with 2998 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:52 - May 31 by PhilTWTD |
I'm sure that's right, they capped it when they knew they were passing 21,000 with the applications they'd already received and with plenty still to process. |
Yep - Ashton said something along the lines of 22k at the end of season dinner. | | | |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 10:01 - May 31 with 2983 views | SheffordBlue |
| 21,000 season ticket sales. on 09:57 - May 31 by PrideOfTheEast |
Yep - Ashton said something along the lines of 22k at the end of season dinner. |
With such high numbers you wonder if they'll look at schemes for season ticket holders to benefit from the club reselling their seats for games they can't attend. I try to find takers for mine if I can't go but don't always succeed and they'll be wanting to maximise new casual attendees at games. | |
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