| Restraint? 08:52 - Oct 13 with 5130 views | DJR |
The following advice from the Foreign Office indicates no attempts by the UK to restrain the Israeli government.
"The Israeli military announced on the morning of 13 October that the entire population of Gaza north of Wadi Gaza should relocate to southern Gaza within the next 24 hours. We advise following this advice issued by the Israeli authorities. We recognise this a fast-moving situation that poses significant risks."
And this despite the fact that the UN have issued this statement.
"The United Nations considers it impossible for such a movement to take place without devastating humanitarian consequences.
The United Nations strongly appeals for any such order, if confirmed, to be rescinded avoiding what could transform what is already a tragedy into a calamitous situation.”
I might add that the unique thing about this conflict, involving as it does a Western military power, is that we are seeing in the media both sides of the conflict on the ground, when, for example, we never saw the effect of Western air strikes on Iraq.
As a result, it does strike me that Israel is in danger of losing in the UK the hearts and mind it clearly won over following the terrible attacks by Hamas because people will begin to conclude that the Israelis are just going too far.
[Post edited 13 Oct 2023 9:04]
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| Restraint? on 08:57 - Oct 13 with 3553 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
According to a BBC report this morning it is so they can flatten the area to get to the tunnels. The tunnels where hostages are likely being held. This response makes no sense on any level. |  |
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| Restraint? on 09:01 - Oct 13 with 3524 views | Darth_Koont |
Indeed. A very disappointing and morally ambiguous response to escalating war crimes.
It’s hard to argue that we’re not putting power in the region over people. Unless we think the Palestinians deserve this which many in the US and UK seemingly do. |  |
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| Restraint? on 09:07 - Oct 13 with 3471 views | Nutkins_Return |
Are Israel considered a 'Western Military power'? This is a middle east conflict surely? |  |
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| Restraint? on 09:15 - Oct 13 with 3427 views | Darth_Koont |
| Restraint? on 09:07 - Oct 13 by Nutkins_Return |
Are Israel considered a 'Western Military power'? This is a middle east conflict surely? |
Unfortunately, yes. We’d be talking about a colonial force in any other setting.
It is certainly a Western-backed and armed military power. In addition to the reflexive support and cover given by the West and in particular the US and UK that has allowed the underlying occupation and oppression to worsen fairly dramatically over the past 10 years. | |
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| Restraint? on 09:17 - Oct 13 with 3413 views | factual_blue |
| Restraint? on 09:07 - Oct 13 by Nutkins_Return |
Are Israel considered a 'Western Military power'? This is a middle east conflict surely? |
Of course they are. They're in Eurovision. |  |
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| Restraint? on 09:21 - Oct 13 with 3393 views | DJR |
| Restraint? on 09:07 - Oct 13 by Nutkins_Return |
Are Israel considered a 'Western Military power'? This is a middle east conflict surely? |
The very close ties between Israel and the US and the UK, with both countries offering military support in the last couple of day, in my view make it clear they are regarded as part of the Western alliance.
And whilst not a member of NATO, for more than twenty years, Israel has been an active NATO partner through the Mediterranean Dialogue. In 2017, Israel established a permanent and official mission to NATO headquarters.
And whilst its location in in the Middle East, its location is no further east than Turkey, a NATO member.
And don't forget that until Ukraine, the focus of Western involvement these last 30 years or so has been firmly in the Middle East, and Israel is an integral part of the Western alliance against countries like Iran and Syria. [Post edited 13 Oct 2023 9:26]
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| Restraint? on 09:24 - Oct 13 with 3368 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Restraint? on 08:57 - Oct 13 by BanksterDebtSlave |
According to a BBC report this morning it is so they can flatten the area to get to the tunnels. The tunnels where hostages are likely being held. This response makes no sense on any level. |
Hamas could greatly de-escalate the situation by releasing the hostages (apparently negotiations are happening via Egypt). However, they know the consequences of holding onto them, and once again proving they are happy to sacrifice Palestinian civilians as part of their games. Israeli policy will be to bring the hostages back dead or alive.
Isreal can rely on largely unconditional Western support so they’ll do what they want to do. Sadly both sides of the conflict are run by absolute madmen with civilians clearly seen as acceptable collateral damage. ‘Some people just want to watch the world burn’. | | | |
| Restraint? on 09:29 - Oct 13 with 3348 views | homer_123 |
More meaningless loss of life.
How fecking depressing. |  |
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| Restraint? on 09:30 - Oct 13 with 3355 views | Trequartista |
In the immediate aftermath of the attacks I felt that too many people were failing to condemn it and were making excuses for Hamas. I still feel that was the case but it’s now at the point where “Israel’s right to self-defence” appears to have no limits in the eyes of its Western supporters. There shouldn’t be silence from Cleverly, Blinken et al over Palestinian civilian deaths caused by bombing and cutting off basic supplies to Gaza. Ok it’s hard to define what comprises “Israel’s self-defence”, but surely what is starting to look like genocide cannot be it.
We (western leaders) need to “have a word” now, in private, if not in public. [Post edited 13 Oct 2023 9:31]
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| Restraint? on 09:34 - Oct 13 with 3321 views | pointofblue |
| Restraint? on 09:24 - Oct 13 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Hamas could greatly de-escalate the situation by releasing the hostages (apparently negotiations are happening via Egypt). However, they know the consequences of holding onto them, and once again proving they are happy to sacrifice Palestinian civilians as part of their games. Israeli policy will be to bring the hostages back dead or alive.
Isreal can rely on largely unconditional Western support so they’ll do what they want to do. Sadly both sides of the conflict are run by absolute madmen with civilians clearly seen as acceptable collateral damage. ‘Some people just want to watch the world burn’. |
I think one thing which is overlooked is Israel see the settlement of the West Bank and the control of Gaza as a key requirement to stop missiles being fired from those areas into recognised Israel. Fear is at the root of the problem - in this case, fear of destruction. Hamas escalates the situation by saying there goal is to destroy Israel, rather than look for a peaceful co-existence.
When Hamas carried out the barbaric events of last week they knew the consequence of their actions. But, from their point of view, they possibly felt they had nothing to lose in terms of the Israeli response. Palestinian people have been suffering for decades yet the situation in the area has hardly been focused on outside of the likes of Al Jazeera for quite a while now. Their actions have restarted the debate plus seemingly halted the 'normalisation' talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia. The more Israel bomb, the more radicalised the survivors on the strip will become.
Both groups have become more entrenched and unable to listen to reason. Today's announcement from Israel comes not even a day after Biden issued warning to them. Saying that, if America really wanted Israel to listen they could always withdraw the warships and make a statement. But Israel's role as a "western" nation in the Middle East has always given it carte blanche to almost to what it wants with little to no reprisal. | |
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| Restraint? on 09:39 - Oct 13 with 3292 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Restraint? on 09:21 - Oct 13 by DJR |
The very close ties between Israel and the US and the UK, with both countries offering military support in the last couple of day, in my view make it clear they are regarded as part of the Western alliance.
And whilst not a member of NATO, for more than twenty years, Israel has been an active NATO partner through the Mediterranean Dialogue. In 2017, Israel established a permanent and official mission to NATO headquarters.
And whilst its location in in the Middle East, its location is no further east than Turkey, a NATO member.
And don't forget that until Ukraine, the focus of Western involvement these last 30 years or so has been firmly in the Middle East, and Israel is an integral part of the Western alliance against countries like Iran and Syria. [Post edited 13 Oct 2023 9:26]
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A western alliance with Israel possessing nuclear capability as well.
At its basic level, Hamas have their top priority to wipe Israel off the map, so unfortunately Israel will make sure that doesn't happen. Whatever that entails.
This is going to get a lot worse yet. |  | | |
| Restraint? on 09:45 - Oct 13 with 3226 views | DanTheMan |
| Restraint? on 09:30 - Oct 13 by Trequartista |
In the immediate aftermath of the attacks I felt that too many people were failing to condemn it and were making excuses for Hamas. I still feel that was the case but it’s now at the point where “Israel’s right to self-defence” appears to have no limits in the eyes of its Western supporters. There shouldn’t be silence from Cleverly, Blinken et al over Palestinian civilian deaths caused by bombing and cutting off basic supplies to Gaza. Ok it’s hard to define what comprises “Israel’s self-defence”, but surely what is starting to look like genocide cannot be it.
We (western leaders) need to “have a word” now, in private, if not in public. [Post edited 13 Oct 2023 9:31]
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There does appear to be some of that happening now, at least from NATO.
Adam Parsons (Sky) : Thank you, Adam Parsons, from Sky News. Secretary General, you said yesterday, that Israel's response had to be proportionate. Israel has today cut off all supplies of fuel, electricity and water to Gaza and its civilian population. So I want to ask: is that proportionate? If it is proportionate, where exactly is the limit? And if it is not proportionate, what can NATO do about that?
NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg: Well, NATO as an Alliance is not directly involved.
But of course, it was important for us to address the situation today and we were briefed by the Israeli Defence Minister. We saw a shocking video and, of course, the reports are shocking. And that's also the reason why Allies have so strongly condemned this horrific terrorist attacks against civilians in Israel and against Israel. As this conflict evolves, it is important to protect civilians and this was also clearly expressed by Allies. There are rules of war. There are the requests for proportionality. And this was highlighted by many Allies. And that's something they state at the same time as they very clearly condemn the brutal atrocities and the violence that Hamas has been responsible for. |  |
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| Restraint? on 09:46 - Oct 13 with 3209 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Restraint? on 09:21 - Oct 13 by DJR |
The very close ties between Israel and the US and the UK, with both countries offering military support in the last couple of day, in my view make it clear they are regarded as part of the Western alliance.
And whilst not a member of NATO, for more than twenty years, Israel has been an active NATO partner through the Mediterranean Dialogue. In 2017, Israel established a permanent and official mission to NATO headquarters.
And whilst its location in in the Middle East, its location is no further east than Turkey, a NATO member.
And don't forget that until Ukraine, the focus of Western involvement these last 30 years or so has been firmly in the Middle East, and Israel is an integral part of the Western alliance against countries like Iran and Syria. [Post edited 13 Oct 2023 9:26]
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Worth noting that it’s not an unconditional relationship both ways. Israel have been somewhat more friendly to Russia than the West/NATO. Following the invasion of Ukraine, they refused to impose sanctions on Russia, or supply weapons to Ukraine. Wouldn’t want to be accused of hypocrisy I guess…. | | | |
| Restraint? on 09:51 - Oct 13 with 3168 views | Darth_Koont |
| Restraint? on 09:45 - Oct 13 by DanTheMan |
There does appear to be some of that happening now, at least from NATO.
Adam Parsons (Sky) : Thank you, Adam Parsons, from Sky News. Secretary General, you said yesterday, that Israel's response had to be proportionate. Israel has today cut off all supplies of fuel, electricity and water to Gaza and its civilian population. So I want to ask: is that proportionate? If it is proportionate, where exactly is the limit? And if it is not proportionate, what can NATO do about that?
NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg: Well, NATO as an Alliance is not directly involved.
But of course, it was important for us to address the situation today and we were briefed by the Israeli Defence Minister. We saw a shocking video and, of course, the reports are shocking. And that's also the reason why Allies have so strongly condemned this horrific terrorist attacks against civilians in Israel and against Israel. As this conflict evolves, it is important to protect civilians and this was also clearly expressed by Allies. There are rules of war. There are the requests for proportionality. And this was highlighted by many Allies. And that's something they state at the same time as they very clearly condemn the brutal atrocities and the violence that Hamas has been responsible for. |
Good to hear from Stoltenberg.
Although rumblings of concern and hand-wringing won’t change anything. That’s always been the background music to the Israel-Palestine situation. It’s calls for a ceasefire in the strongest terms, with diplomatic/political actions to back it up, that are needed.
Let’s hope Stoltenberg and NATO put their money where there mouth is over the next days to avert new horrors. | |
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| Restraint? on 09:57 - Oct 13 with 3127 views | DJR |
| Restraint? on 09:46 - Oct 13 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Worth noting that it’s not an unconditional relationship both ways. Israel have been somewhat more friendly to Russia than the West/NATO. Following the invasion of Ukraine, they refused to impose sanctions on Russia, or supply weapons to Ukraine. Wouldn’t want to be accused of hypocrisy I guess…. |
That's a very fair point. | | | |
| Restraint? on 10:04 - Oct 13 with 3094 views | giant_stow |
| Restraint? on 09:51 - Oct 13 by Darth_Koont |
Good to hear from Stoltenberg.
Although rumblings of concern and hand-wringing won’t change anything. That’s always been the background music to the Israel-Palestine situation. It’s calls for a ceasefire in the strongest terms, with diplomatic/political actions to back it up, that are needed.
Let’s hope Stoltenberg and NATO put their money where there mouth is over the next days to avert new horrors. |
does NATO, the US or UK actually have enough sway to stop Israel from crossing the line (wherever that is)? Seems to me that Isreal's govt sees itself in survival mode now.... |  |
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| Restraint? on 10:17 - Oct 13 with 3038 views | pointofblue |
| Restraint? on 10:04 - Oct 13 by giant_stow |
does NATO, the US or UK actually have enough sway to stop Israel from crossing the line (wherever that is)? Seems to me that Isreal's govt sees itself in survival mode now.... |
Sending warships to the area in support is certainly not dissuading them.
I saw a post on the BBC feed yesterday airing the view of an Israeli who lived in the area. He partially blamed the West for what happened as, every time Israel waged war of Hamas in the past, pressure came from Washington etc. to use restraint and back off. Basically claiming that, if the West had let Israel carry out their goals then, then Hamas would be no more and wouldn't be able to have carried out the attack last week. So I think there will be pressure by a proportion of the Israeli public on the Government to keep going and not listen to any calls of restraint from America and others. | |
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| Restraint? on 10:28 - Oct 13 with 3010 views | giant_stow |
| Restraint? on 10:17 - Oct 13 by pointofblue |
Sending warships to the area in support is certainly not dissuading them.
I saw a post on the BBC feed yesterday airing the view of an Israeli who lived in the area. He partially blamed the West for what happened as, every time Israel waged war of Hamas in the past, pressure came from Washington etc. to use restraint and back off. Basically claiming that, if the West had let Israel carry out their goals then, then Hamas would be no more and wouldn't be able to have carried out the attack last week. So I think there will be pressure by a proportion of the Israeli public on the Government to keep going and not listen to any calls of restraint from America and others. |
Very fair point on the warships, but then again, aren't they more about protection in case the war goes international, rather than helping against Hamas?
Your last line seems bang on to me. Antony Blinken put it into context well yesterday when talking about this being Israel's 9/11 x 10... the desire to both reimpose security and (unfortunately) get revenge will be massive. | |
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| Restraint? on 10:39 - Oct 13 with 2943 views | pointofblue |
| Restraint? on 10:28 - Oct 13 by giant_stow |
Very fair point on the warships, but then again, aren't they more about protection in case the war goes international, rather than helping against Hamas?
Your last line seems bang on to me. Antony Blinken put it into context well yesterday when talking about this being Israel's 9/11 x 10... the desire to both reimpose security and (unfortunately) get revenge will be massive. |
The UK has said the warships are there on a watching brief, in fairness. America has said it will send more ammunition to Israel.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67049196.amp | |
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| Restraint? on 10:39 - Oct 13 with 2945 views | Blueschev |
| Restraint? on 09:24 - Oct 13 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Hamas could greatly de-escalate the situation by releasing the hostages (apparently negotiations are happening via Egypt). However, they know the consequences of holding onto them, and once again proving they are happy to sacrifice Palestinian civilians as part of their games. Israeli policy will be to bring the hostages back dead or alive.
Isreal can rely on largely unconditional Western support so they’ll do what they want to do. Sadly both sides of the conflict are run by absolute madmen with civilians clearly seen as acceptable collateral damage. ‘Some people just want to watch the world burn’. |
Hamas are a horrendous death cult, who are more interested in bringing around Armageddon than they are about the lives of the Palestinian people. However I'm uncomfortable with this "they're both as bad as each other" narrative. There is only one occupier in this conflict, it is not a fair fight between two rivalling factions. Settlements continue to be built, the blockade of Gaza has lasted more than a decade, check points in the West Bank continue to disrupt the daily lives of Palestinians, and the myth of a two state solution continues to be rolled out by western politicians who know it will never happen and don't actually care. |  | | |
| Restraint? on 10:51 - Oct 13 with 2849 views | GlasgowBlue |
Are Hamas now seriously trying to share the blame for the weekend’s atrocities on ordinary Palestinians?
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| Restraint? on 11:00 - Oct 13 with 2805 views | pointofblue |
| Restraint? on 10:51 - Oct 13 by GlasgowBlue |
Are Hamas now seriously trying to share the blame for the weekend’s atrocities on ordinary Palestinians?
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If true, then Hamas can at the very least make a public call.for the hostages to be released. But I'm they've been using them as a bargaining chip - like one killed for every Israeli missile fired? | |
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| Restraint? on 11:01 - Oct 13 with 2801 views | DJR |
More on the humanitarian impact of the call to evacuate northern Gaza, this time from the WHO. This from the Guardian.
WHO said Friday that local health authorities in Gaza had informed it that it was impossible to evacuate vulnerable hospital patients from northern Gaza, after Israel’s military called for civilians to relocate south within 24 hours.
“There are severely ill people whose injuries mean their only chances of survival is being on life support, such as mechanical ventilators,” Reuters reports WHO spokesperson Tarik Jasarevic said. “So moving those people is a death sentence. Asking health workers to do so is beyond cruel.”
And this from the WHO director, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus.
"Hospitals in Gaza are at a breaking point. Without immediate entry of aid, essential health care services will come to a halt. I visited Gaza in 2018. Access to care was already difficult. I know first-hand that a mass evacuation to the enclave’s south would be disastrous – for patients, health workers and other civilians left behind or caught in a dangerous and maybe a deadly mass movement. We appeal for the reversal of the decision." | | | |
| Restraint? on 11:10 - Oct 13 with 2768 views | DJR |
Leo Varadker is prepared to call it out, but he seems a lone voice.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/leo-varadkar-israel-breaching-internationa
Having said that, given the West was prepared to launch an attack on Iraq which according to a Lancet survey led to an estimated 654,965 excess deaths between March 2003 and June 2006, perhaps those countries in the West which took part can't be too critical of Israel. And in that case, there wasn't even the self defence justification. [Post edited 13 Oct 2023 11:19]
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| Restraint? on 11:53 - Oct 13 with 2668 views | Basuco |
| Restraint? on 10:51 - Oct 13 by GlasgowBlue |
Are Hamas now seriously trying to share the blame for the weekend’s atrocities on ordinary Palestinians?
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Maybe they now see they had made a huge error in taking on Israel, who in retaliation look like they are going to ruthlessly hunt down every member of Hamas and take them out, with any collateral casualties considered to be just part of the operation. Hamas were stupid to give Israel an excuse to go at them with a very predictable inhuman full on response. The result of which is many innocent people on both sides killed or injured, which for me is the worst part. |  | | |
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