| Sentences too lenient ? on 10:15 - Dec 19 with 2738 views | tcblue |
"Gisèle has waived her right to anonymity, saying she wanted to make "shame swap sides" from the victim to the rapist"
I don't think I've often read a more sad sentence. This poor woman, regardless of the sentencing. I hope she can find anonymity in her new identity. |  | |  |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 10:31 - Dec 19 with 2660 views | mutters |
I recall reading somewhere that 20 years was the maximum possible sentence based on the charges bought. |  |
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| Sentences too lenient ? on 12:25 - Dec 19 with 2503 views | itfcjoe |
Just the most incredible crime you could imagine, coupled with the fact such 'normal' men were taking part in it.
It does make you worry what men will do when they think they can get away with it - see also Pakistani rape gangs in Yorkshire |  |
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| Sentences too lenient ? on 13:09 - Dec 19 with 2392 views | DJR |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 12:25 - Dec 19 by itfcjoe |
Just the most incredible crime you could imagine, coupled with the fact such 'normal' men were taking part in it.
It does make you worry what men will do when they think they can get away with it - see also Pakistani rape gangs in Yorkshire |
According to 2020 data from the Home Office, 22.9% of women (and 4.7% of men) had been the victims of sexual assault since they were aged 16. And 7.9% of women had been the victims of rape since that age.
Having looked at the evidence, it is not clear to me that any particular ethnic group is any more likely to be the perpetrator.
And when it comes to Yorkshire, this emerged yesterday.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy854w8rx4o [Post edited 19 Dec 2024 13:11]
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| Sentences too lenient ? on 13:29 - Dec 19 with 2306 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 10:31 - Dec 19 by mutters |
I recall reading somewhere that 20 years was the maximum possible sentence based on the charges bought. |
Yes, 20 years was the maximum for her ex-Husband
It appears to be the sentences for the other 50 guilty men is where the leniency has been questioned, where some were as low as 3 years and some suspended sentences. Which was lower than demanded by the prosecution. |  | | |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 13:41 - Dec 19 with 2287 views | baxterbasics |
20 years is the max and I gather only the husband has been given that. Can't see how they could justify any less.
Gisèle is a true brave hero even though she clearly doesn't want to be considered one.
One other person I think needs some recognition is his defence lawyer Béatrice Zavarro - what an utterly unsympathetic and thankless job she has had to do, yet it is so important in order for justice to be done correctly. |  |
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| Sentences too lenient ? on 14:58 - Dec 19 with 2193 views | itfcjoe |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 13:09 - Dec 19 by DJR |
According to 2020 data from the Home Office, 22.9% of women (and 4.7% of men) had been the victims of sexual assault since they were aged 16. And 7.9% of women had been the victims of rape since that age.
Having looked at the evidence, it is not clear to me that any particular ethnic group is any more likely to be the perpetrator.
And when it comes to Yorkshire, this emerged yesterday.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy854w8rx4o [Post edited 19 Dec 2024 13:11]
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I think you misunderstand my point, the Pakistani men was just another example of where 'men' are empowered and feel as though they are acting with impunity and 'normal' men do terrible things. | |
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| Sentences too lenient ? on 15:17 - Dec 19 with 2139 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 13:09 - Dec 19 by DJR |
According to 2020 data from the Home Office, 22.9% of women (and 4.7% of men) had been the victims of sexual assault since they were aged 16. And 7.9% of women had been the victims of rape since that age.
Having looked at the evidence, it is not clear to me that any particular ethnic group is any more likely to be the perpetrator.
And when it comes to Yorkshire, this emerged yesterday.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy854w8rx4o [Post edited 19 Dec 2024 13:11]
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Wow, nearly a quarter. That’s disgusting and depressing.
Joe was just using the Rotherham gangs as an example rather than making it about race. But yes, you’re right it’s not a race issue. We all know the problem is men and not where they come from. |  |
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| Sentences too lenient ? on 15:48 - Dec 19 with 2084 views | BloomBlue |
Remember in French law the woman doesn't have to consent, whereas in the UK they do.
I'm still shocked that in 2024 an EU member still has a law that a woman doesn't have to consent. |  | | |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 15:55 - Dec 19 with 2074 views | DJR |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 15:17 - Dec 19 by Swansea_Blue |
Wow, nearly a quarter. That’s disgusting and depressing.
Joe was just using the Rotherham gangs as an example rather than making it about race. But yes, you’re right it’s not a race issue. We all know the problem is men and not where they come from. |
A couple more snippets.
The Crime Survey for England and Wales for the year ending March 2022 show an estimated 3.3% of women (798,000) and 1.2% of men (275,000) aged 16 years and over experienced sexual assault (including attempts) in the last year.
The Crime Survey for England and Wales (2019) estimated that 7.5% of adults aged 18 to 74 years experienced sexual abuse before the age of 16 years (3.1 million people); this includes both adult and child perpetrators. | | | |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 16:05 - Dec 19 with 2030 views | DJR |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 14:58 - Dec 19 by itfcjoe |
I think you misunderstand my point, the Pakistani men was just another example of where 'men' are empowered and feel as though they are acting with impunity and 'normal' men do terrible things. |
I suppose I was mainly picking you up because the general point you make could equally be said of, say, rape or sexual abuse within the family or extended family. But I didn't perhaps make that clear.
Crimes recorded by the police in the year ending March 2022 show the following:
the victim was female in 86% of sexual offences
for female victims of rape, the perpetrator was most likely to be an intimate partner (46%)
No doubt there will be many, many more women who do not report rape or sexual abuse by a partner. Or children who do not report sexual abuse by a family member. [Post edited 19 Dec 2024 16:20]
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| Sentences too lenient ? on 17:36 - Dec 19 with 1903 views | bsw72 |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 15:48 - Dec 19 by BloomBlue |
Remember in French law the woman doesn't have to consent, whereas in the UK they do.
I'm still shocked that in 2024 an EU member still has a law that a woman doesn't have to consent. |
I agree shocking but considering the guilty verdicts should have no bearing on the sentence lengths. |  | | |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 17:54 - Dec 19 with 1870 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 13:29 - Dec 19 by ElderGrizzly |
Yes, 20 years was the maximum for her ex-Husband
It appears to be the sentences for the other 50 guilty men is where the leniency has been questioned, where some were as low as 3 years and some suspended sentences. Which was lower than demanded by the prosecution. |
Yes itz a bit strange that some were charged with sexual assault where others were charged with rape. Surely they all committed the same crime? Also the defence that her husband gave consent to have sex with an unconscious woman really is a minus defense. |  | | |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 18:10 - Dec 19 with 1828 views | Ryorry |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 15:17 - Dec 19 by Swansea_Blue |
Wow, nearly a quarter. That’s disgusting and depressing.
Joe was just using the Rotherham gangs as an example rather than making it about race. But yes, you’re right it’s not a race issue. We all know the problem is men and not where they come from. |
Can happen in the most subtle of ways too, no doubt some men rely on that - health professional in my case, Ipswich, 1972-3, while I was getting treatment for my lower back.
This is actually the first time I've ever mentioned it. Didn't even tell friends :(
Makes me angry now to think he got away with it, so I hope Gisele Pelicot's incredibly brave stand encourages others to speak out. |  |
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| Sentences too lenient ? on 18:11 - Dec 19 with 1826 views | BloomBlue |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 16:05 - Dec 19 by DJR |
I suppose I was mainly picking you up because the general point you make could equally be said of, say, rape or sexual abuse within the family or extended family. But I didn't perhaps make that clear.
Crimes recorded by the police in the year ending March 2022 show the following:
the victim was female in 86% of sexual offences
for female victims of rape, the perpetrator was most likely to be an intimate partner (46%)
No doubt there will be many, many more women who do not report rape or sexual abuse by a partner. Or children who do not report sexual abuse by a family member. [Post edited 19 Dec 2024 16:20]
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I think your point about those 'who do not report' is incredibly important.
A few years ago I was on a jury where the couple had started a relationship including having consensual sex. But in that situation she had said no, but he had ignored the no and continued. But during evidence it made you think how many relationships had suffered a similar situation where the woman didn't want kissing to move to intercourse but the man had continued (rape) and then the woman would decide nobody will believe it's rape, and therefore not reported it. | | | |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 18:15 - Dec 19 with 1812 views | BloomBlue |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 17:36 - Dec 19 by bsw72 |
I agree shocking but considering the guilty verdicts should have no bearing on the sentence lengths. |
I agree, but I assume the French judge looked at the French law.
Now I'm not saying UK law is perfect but as the BBC has said a few times on this case, if it had been in this country was/wasn't wouldn't even be a question as non consensual is automatically rape. | | | |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 18:57 - Dec 19 with 1760 views | DJR |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 18:10 - Dec 19 by Ryorry |
Can happen in the most subtle of ways too, no doubt some men rely on that - health professional in my case, Ipswich, 1972-3, while I was getting treatment for my lower back.
This is actually the first time I've ever mentioned it. Didn't even tell friends :(
Makes me angry now to think he got away with it, so I hope Gisele Pelicot's incredibly brave stand encourages others to speak out. |
Very sorry to hear that, Ryorry, and brave of you to mention it, even if you may never have the courage to mention it to anyone in person. But you have spoken out in your own way and that is good because each time someone speaks out, it hopefully makes men think.
And you are right to feel angry. [Post edited 19 Dec 2024 18:59]
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| Sentences too lenient ? on 19:02 - Dec 19 with 1743 views | Mullet |
Apologies for the thread duplication, as said elsewhere it seems very lenient all things considered doesn’t it? |  |
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| Sentences too lenient ? on 20:37 - Dec 19 with 1679 views | Hugoagogo_Reborn |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 18:10 - Dec 19 by Ryorry |
Can happen in the most subtle of ways too, no doubt some men rely on that - health professional in my case, Ipswich, 1972-3, while I was getting treatment for my lower back.
This is actually the first time I've ever mentioned it. Didn't even tell friends :(
Makes me angry now to think he got away with it, so I hope Gisele Pelicot's incredibly brave stand encourages others to speak out. |
So sorry to hear you went through that, Ryorry.
The 'shame swaps sides' narrative that Gisèle has brought into the wider discussion is so, so important.
My most frightening experience at the hands of a man happened when I was in my early twenties, late at night on a metro train in Paris. I didn't tell anyone for years, because I was worried people would say I was to blame for getting myself into that situation (shouldn't have travelled alone, in an empty carriage late at night, etc).
For years many women have blamed themselves for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, when they shouldn't feel that shame at all. They were not the person who chose to take advantage of a more vulnerable person and violated their boundaries. The shame needs to swap sides. Communities need to teach their boys and girls clearly and catagorically what is acceptable and what isn't, and shame those who choose to hurt others in this way. [Post edited 19 Dec 2024 20:39]
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| Sentences too lenient ? on 00:45 - Dec 20 with 1535 views | Europablue |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 12:25 - Dec 19 by itfcjoe |
Just the most incredible crime you could imagine, coupled with the fact such 'normal' men were taking part in it.
It does make you worry what men will do when they think they can get away with it - see also Pakistani rape gangs in Yorkshire |
The most shocking part of it is that the husband managed to get all those other men in on it and he didn't approach one who declined and contacted the police instead. | | | |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 00:50 - Dec 20 with 1533 views | Europablue |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 15:17 - Dec 19 by Swansea_Blue |
Wow, nearly a quarter. That’s disgusting and depressing.
Joe was just using the Rotherham gangs as an example rather than making it about race. But yes, you’re right it’s not a race issue. We all know the problem is men and not where they come from. |
The issue is also about the groups that are allowed to get away with it, which unfortunately includes Muslim gangs, as well as the Police, the Church, Celebrities, football coaches, and politicians.
We don't need to target any particular group, just punish everyone equally. | | | |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 01:20 - Dec 20 with 1527 views | Ryorry |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 20:37 - Dec 19 by Hugoagogo_Reborn |
So sorry to hear you went through that, Ryorry.
The 'shame swaps sides' narrative that Gisèle has brought into the wider discussion is so, so important.
My most frightening experience at the hands of a man happened when I was in my early twenties, late at night on a metro train in Paris. I didn't tell anyone for years, because I was worried people would say I was to blame for getting myself into that situation (shouldn't have travelled alone, in an empty carriage late at night, etc).
For years many women have blamed themselves for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, when they shouldn't feel that shame at all. They were not the person who chose to take advantage of a more vulnerable person and violated their boundaries. The shame needs to swap sides. Communities need to teach their boys and girls clearly and catagorically what is acceptable and what isn't, and shame those who choose to hurt others in this way. [Post edited 19 Dec 2024 20:39]
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Likewise, sorry to hear you had to go through that.
Couldn’t agree more re the need for the ‘shame swaps sides’ narrative. Mind you, that’s something first started in the 1970s by women (Leeds Uni students I think) protesting against both the Peter Sutcliffe serial killings; and being told by police to stay at home to stay safe. One banner on a protest march read ‘men stay at home’! if a docu-drama last night was factually correct! | |
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| Sentences too lenient ? on 08:21 - Dec 20 with 1395 views | DJR |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 20:37 - Dec 19 by Hugoagogo_Reborn |
So sorry to hear you went through that, Ryorry.
The 'shame swaps sides' narrative that Gisèle has brought into the wider discussion is so, so important.
My most frightening experience at the hands of a man happened when I was in my early twenties, late at night on a metro train in Paris. I didn't tell anyone for years, because I was worried people would say I was to blame for getting myself into that situation (shouldn't have travelled alone, in an empty carriage late at night, etc).
For years many women have blamed themselves for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, when they shouldn't feel that shame at all. They were not the person who chose to take advantage of a more vulnerable person and violated their boundaries. The shame needs to swap sides. Communities need to teach their boys and girls clearly and catagorically what is acceptable and what isn't, and shame those who choose to hurt others in this way. [Post edited 19 Dec 2024 20:39]
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Really sorry to hear that.
Women are not to blame, and it is tragic that many feel unsafe alone at night in public.
For my own part, I am always conscious of individual women alone at night when, say, walking home from the station, and try to keep my distance or cross the street, rather than walking close behind them. | | | |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 08:33 - Dec 20 with 1364 views | DJR |
| Sentences too lenient ? on 01:20 - Dec 20 by Ryorry |
Likewise, sorry to hear you had to go through that.
Couldn’t agree more re the need for the ‘shame swaps sides’ narrative. Mind you, that’s something first started in the 1970s by women (Leeds Uni students I think) protesting against both the Peter Sutcliffe serial killings; and being told by police to stay at home to stay safe. One banner on a protest march read ‘men stay at home’! if a docu-drama last night was factually correct! |
Yes, it originated in Leeds and here's some background.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reclaim_the_Night
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_Revolutionary_Feminist_Group
I was at Leeds University in 1980 when a female student was killed by the Yorkshire Ripper.
The effect on the female student population was chilling, especially as the killing took place next to a university hall of residence, and I remember being asked to accompany a female student home from the university when it was dark.
Fortunately he was caught a couple of months later. [Post edited 20 Dec 2024 8:34]
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| Sentences too lenient ? on 08:51 - Dec 20 with 1316 views | baxterbasics |
On the question "how is it so many men could be involved or invited to take part and not one felt inclined to report or blow the whistle" - he was finding them online in spaces for men with this sort of fantasy, they weren't random invites. So they already had their own dark secrets even if they'd never acted. Men with their own wives and children. Even if some might have declined the opportunity as a step too far for them, they probably didn't fancy revealing to the police (and by extension loved ones or employers) what they've been looking at and discussing online. So it's not that surprising. | |
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