| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur 09:39 - Feb 8 with 2188 views | Keno |
When someone like Blackford accuses Boris of lying one speaker will reprimand him, so should the speaker do the same to Boris regarding what he said about Starmer and Saville?
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 09:41 - Feb 8 with 1631 views | bluelagos |
He already has. He asked everyone to be "kinder" to each other the other week when addressing it.
So not expecting any more from the Speaker. |  |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 09:42 - Feb 8 with 1619 views | GeoffSentence |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 09:41 - Feb 8 by bluelagos |
He already has. He asked everyone to be "kinder" to each other the other week when addressing it.
So not expecting any more from the Speaker. |
We could do with John Bercow back |  |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 09:44 - Feb 8 with 1609 views | Cotty |
There is something rotten when calling someone a liar deserves a punishment and lying does not. |  | | |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 09:46 - Feb 8 with 1597 views | Keno |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 09:44 - Feb 8 by Cotty |
There is something rotten when calling someone a liar deserves a punishment and lying does not. |
Indeed!!
Especially when the person accused of lying is also the person doing the lying | |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 09:59 - Feb 8 with 1539 views | Mookamoo |
I think Blackford was expelled for disruption with powers given to the Speaker - standing Order 43. Will be interesting to see if the Speaker now has the power to retrospectively ask the PM to put the record straight before the next PMQs, or there is some sort of point of order that has to be made. Boris might be able to claim parliamentary privilege and just stay shtum.
The trouble for Starmer now is the more fuss that is made about Saville, the more people will choose to believe it irrespective of what is actually true. |  | | |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:04 - Feb 8 with 1516 views | homer_123 |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 09:46 - Feb 8 by Keno |
Indeed!!
Especially when the person accused of lying is also the person doing the lying |
Ohh the irony |  |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:04 - Feb 8 with 1521 views | lowhouseblue |
starmer was a very good dpp - i don't see any responsibility at a personal level for him over saville. he wasn't personally involved in the decisions not to prosecute. it was a high profile case but much of what the cps does is high profile. but at the level of the cps there was a significant failure in this case, and starmer has properly apologised for the failure of the cps and has properly stated that as its leader the buck stopped with him. so i don't see starmer's "failure to prosecute saville" as a straight forward lie. by itself the statement is imprecise about the nature of responsibility involved - it depends on how you interpret it. if repeated outside of the chamber by itself it would therefore get nowhere near slander. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:07 - Feb 8 with 1498 views | bluelagos |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:04 - Feb 8 by lowhouseblue |
starmer was a very good dpp - i don't see any responsibility at a personal level for him over saville. he wasn't personally involved in the decisions not to prosecute. it was a high profile case but much of what the cps does is high profile. but at the level of the cps there was a significant failure in this case, and starmer has properly apologised for the failure of the cps and has properly stated that as its leader the buck stopped with him. so i don't see starmer's "failure to prosecute saville" as a straight forward lie. by itself the statement is imprecise about the nature of responsibility involved - it depends on how you interpret it. if repeated outside of the chamber by itself it would therefore get nowhere near slander. |
Think a few of your comments there are inaccurate. Worth a watch for more clarity on what happened from someone who was there and knows the detail.
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:09 - Feb 8 with 1473 views | bluelagos |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 09:59 - Feb 8 by Mookamoo |
I think Blackford was expelled for disruption with powers given to the Speaker - standing Order 43. Will be interesting to see if the Speaker now has the power to retrospectively ask the PM to put the record straight before the next PMQs, or there is some sort of point of order that has to be made. Boris might be able to claim parliamentary privilege and just stay shtum.
The trouble for Starmer now is the more fuss that is made about Saville, the more people will choose to believe it irrespective of what is actually true. |
He has already dealt with it. He said nothing needed to be corrected. He then asked for MPs to kinder to each other.
A day or two after the original comments by Johnson. | |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:13 - Feb 8 with 1441 views | Keno |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:09 - Feb 8 by bluelagos |
He has already dealt with it. He said nothing needed to be corrected. He then asked for MPs to kinder to each other.
A day or two after the original comments by Johnson. |
So Boris can say something completely untrue and thats ok
Someone else can say something true and get expelled | |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:18 - Feb 8 with 1426 views | lowhouseblue |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:07 - Feb 8 by bluelagos |
Think a few of your comments there are inaccurate. Worth a watch for more clarity on what happened from someone who was there and knows the detail.
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not sure that's right. i don't think that's been suggested before. starmer became dpp in nov 2008, cps made decision not to prosecute oct 2009. again i'm not suggesting starmer had any personal involvement or responsibility. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:19 - Feb 8 with 1419 views | Mookamoo |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:13 - Feb 8 by Keno |
So Boris can say something completely untrue and thats ok
Someone else can say something true and get expelled |
Yep. It's how you say it and the language that is used.
If you are polite and gentlemanly then you have the right to say what you want in the Commons. Blackford just wasn't allowed to use the word liar. If they can call each other liars then nothing will ever get done. | | | |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:28 - Feb 8 with 1364 views | bluelagos |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:13 - Feb 8 by Keno |
So Boris can say something completely untrue and thats ok
Someone else can say something true and get expelled |
Not my system! | |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:41 - Feb 8 with 1298 views | Keno |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:28 - Feb 8 by bluelagos |
Not my system! |
Sorry BL that wasn't aimed at you!!! | |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 11:23 - Feb 8 with 1210 views | Swansea_Blue |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 10:07 - Feb 8 by bluelagos |
Think a few of your comments there are inaccurate. Worth a watch for more clarity on what happened from someone who was there and knows the detail.
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An interesting watch, not that it'll change the mind of those in the political tribe that want to damage Starmer. |  |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 11:28 - Feb 8 with 1189 views | lowhouseblue |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 11:23 - Feb 8 by Swansea_Blue |
An interesting watch, not that it'll change the mind of those in the political tribe that want to damage Starmer. |
though listening to the interview, the assertion is that the police decision not to disclose to complainants that there were multiple complainants was made before starmer became dpp. the actual cps decision not to prosecute was made almost a year after starmer became dpp. again i'm not suggesting that starmer had any direct personal involvement in that cps decision. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 11:31 - Feb 8 with 1169 views | Darth_Koont |
It’s not a lie, but it’s definitely an unfair smear.
The Stamer-Savile stuff is basically the standard level of disingenuousness we’ve come to expect in and around our politics. Only it seems here that many, even inside politics, have decided this is different. Which I suspect is because Boris is in the sights (as he should have been months and years ago) rather than any moral line being crossed.
Our press and politicians have long been among the least trusted in developed democracies. Maybe getting to grips with the arcane nature and privilege of the HoC would be a good start. |  |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 11:36 - Feb 8 with 1118 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 11:28 - Feb 8 by lowhouseblue |
though listening to the interview, the assertion is that the police decision not to disclose to complainants that there were multiple complainants was made before starmer became dpp. the actual cps decision not to prosecute was made almost a year after starmer became dpp. again i'm not suggesting that starmer had any direct personal involvement in that cps decision. |
Thats maybe four times that you've said, "again i'm not suggesting that starmer had any direct personal involvement in that cps decision."
But you are continuing to labour (no pun intended) that Starmer was DPP, so what are you saying?
Are you saying he's to blame in some way? Because the decision to prosecute or not is made locally within the CPS, not nationally. Whether Starmer was DPP or not, he would have had no sight of the Saville case, or any other, until a charge was brought as a high profile case.
Even with Saville, we still have a policy in this country of, 'Innocent until proven', and so, cases are kept at a local level for charging decisions. [Post edited 8 Feb 2022 11:39]
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 11:43 - Feb 8 with 1071 views | Darth_Koont |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 11:36 - Feb 8 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Thats maybe four times that you've said, "again i'm not suggesting that starmer had any direct personal involvement in that cps decision."
But you are continuing to labour (no pun intended) that Starmer was DPP, so what are you saying?
Are you saying he's to blame in some way? Because the decision to prosecute or not is made locally within the CPS, not nationally. Whether Starmer was DPP or not, he would have had no sight of the Saville case, or any other, until a charge was brought as a high profile case.
Even with Saville, we still have a policy in this country of, 'Innocent until proven', and so, cases are kept at a local level for charging decisions. [Post edited 8 Feb 2022 11:39]
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Agreed. That’s where the smear really lies, because it ignores these underlying details and responsibilities.
But our politics is pretty much based on this type of bad-faith reading. | |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 11:44 - Feb 8 with 1063 views | lowhouseblue |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 11:36 - Feb 8 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Thats maybe four times that you've said, "again i'm not suggesting that starmer had any direct personal involvement in that cps decision."
But you are continuing to labour (no pun intended) that Starmer was DPP, so what are you saying?
Are you saying he's to blame in some way? Because the decision to prosecute or not is made locally within the CPS, not nationally. Whether Starmer was DPP or not, he would have had no sight of the Saville case, or any other, until a charge was brought as a high profile case.
Even with Saville, we still have a policy in this country of, 'Innocent until proven', and so, cases are kept at a local level for charging decisions. [Post edited 8 Feb 2022 11:39]
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i'm saying what i've written and i've included the phrase you've quoted so that no one can misrepresent my intent.
my first post said: "but at the level of the cps there was a significant failure in this case, and starmer has properly apologised for the failure of the cps and has properly stated that as its leader the buck stopped with him."
the person who leads an organisation is responsible for the organisation's, policies, procedures, competencies, and successes and failures. starmer led the cps at a time when it failed badly over saville - he has accepted responsibility at a leadership level and apologised.
in that context boris's statement is not a straight forward 'lie'. starmer, through the cps that he led, did fail to prosecute saville.
but, again, that does not imply that starmer had any direct personal involvement in the actual cps decision. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 11:51 - Feb 8 with 1028 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 11:44 - Feb 8 by lowhouseblue |
i'm saying what i've written and i've included the phrase you've quoted so that no one can misrepresent my intent.
my first post said: "but at the level of the cps there was a significant failure in this case, and starmer has properly apologised for the failure of the cps and has properly stated that as its leader the buck stopped with him."
the person who leads an organisation is responsible for the organisation's, policies, procedures, competencies, and successes and failures. starmer led the cps at a time when it failed badly over saville - he has accepted responsibility at a leadership level and apologised.
in that context boris's statement is not a straight forward 'lie'. starmer, through the cps that he led, did fail to prosecute saville.
but, again, that does not imply that starmer had any direct personal involvement in the actual cps decision. |
But it is a straight forward Lie. Starmer didn't 'fail' to prosecute Saville, as that decision was never his to make it was made locally, and Starmer would only have become aware after Saville's victims came forward after his death.
As DPP at the time, then yes, the buck stops with Starmer as the chief representative of the CPS and so he apologised.
But to suggest Starmer personally 'failed' to prosecute Saville, and is therefore somehow responsible is an outright lie, and is deliberate and malicious spreading of mis-information to score a political point. | |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 11:52 - Feb 8 with 1024 views | XYZ |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 11:44 - Feb 8 by lowhouseblue |
i'm saying what i've written and i've included the phrase you've quoted so that no one can misrepresent my intent.
my first post said: "but at the level of the cps there was a significant failure in this case, and starmer has properly apologised for the failure of the cps and has properly stated that as its leader the buck stopped with him."
the person who leads an organisation is responsible for the organisation's, policies, procedures, competencies, and successes and failures. starmer led the cps at a time when it failed badly over saville - he has accepted responsibility at a leadership level and apologised.
in that context boris's statement is not a straight forward 'lie'. starmer, through the cps that he led, did fail to prosecute saville.
but, again, that does not imply that starmer had any direct personal involvement in the actual cps decision. |
Johnson said that he "spent his time" prosecuting journalists and not prosecuting Savile.
The clear implication in Johnson's words was of personal involvement.
You seem to be defending the line put out and about that what Johnson was talking about was vicarious responsibility. It clearly wasn't. |  | | |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 12:02 - Feb 8 with 989 views | lowhouseblue |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 11:51 - Feb 8 by Cheltenham_Blue |
But it is a straight forward Lie. Starmer didn't 'fail' to prosecute Saville, as that decision was never his to make it was made locally, and Starmer would only have become aware after Saville's victims came forward after his death.
As DPP at the time, then yes, the buck stops with Starmer as the chief representative of the CPS and so he apologised.
But to suggest Starmer personally 'failed' to prosecute Saville, and is therefore somehow responsible is an outright lie, and is deliberate and malicious spreading of mis-information to score a political point. |
failure can take different forms - personal and direct which is clearly false in starmer's case; or organisational in which case responsibility is undoubtedly borne by starmer as the organisation's head*. it is not straightforward that boris's statement referred to the former and not the latter. it's a question of interpretation and therefore his statement is not a straightforward lie.
remember this was in the context of a discussion of boris's responsibility for events in downing street- whether it was an organisational responsibility for which he had apologised, or a direct personal responsibility that he claimed only applied when he was actually present.
* a quote from starmer: “Hear me out: I had 8,000 staff for five years as the director of public prosecutions. And I acted, I hope, in the right way with them, which is when they had victories I celebrated victories on their behalf, I picked up awards on their behalves. When they made mistakes, I carried the can. I never turn on my staff and you should never turn on your staff… I will carry the can for mistakes of any organisation I lead.” | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 12:11 - Feb 8 with 952 views | Mookamoo |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 12:02 - Feb 8 by lowhouseblue |
failure can take different forms - personal and direct which is clearly false in starmer's case; or organisational in which case responsibility is undoubtedly borne by starmer as the organisation's head*. it is not straightforward that boris's statement referred to the former and not the latter. it's a question of interpretation and therefore his statement is not a straightforward lie.
remember this was in the context of a discussion of boris's responsibility for events in downing street- whether it was an organisational responsibility for which he had apologised, or a direct personal responsibility that he claimed only applied when he was actually present.
* a quote from starmer: “Hear me out: I had 8,000 staff for five years as the director of public prosecutions. And I acted, I hope, in the right way with them, which is when they had victories I celebrated victories on their behalf, I picked up awards on their behalves. When they made mistakes, I carried the can. I never turn on my staff and you should never turn on your staff… I will carry the can for mistakes of any organisation I lead.” |
Context is very much key. Johnson aimed is comment directly at Starmer and made it a personal and direct accusation. I'm not sure tying to be clever and frame the blame within Starmer's role as the organisation's head is a position worth defending. | | | |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 12:13 - Feb 8 with 934 views | lowhouseblue |
| A question for political people - Boris and this Saville Slur on 12:11 - Feb 8 by Mookamoo |
Context is very much key. Johnson aimed is comment directly at Starmer and made it a personal and direct accusation. I'm not sure tying to be clever and frame the blame within Starmer's role as the organisation's head is a position worth defending. |
so you disagree with starmer's quote? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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