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This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:06 - Oct 14 by syntaxerror
Thing is though, J2... people do listen to them. Maybe not us, but the bloke Callis mentioned is a perfect example. People can be turned into extremism, and there needs to be places they can be educated against it. Even if just one person reads this thread and decides not to join a FLA march because of it, its a good thing.
The bloke Callis mentions comes on here, sees himself and his mates being attacked and called Nazis, racists etc etc. What happens?
He comes on here sees the arguments he's hearing from that lot being soundly destroyed with calm intelligent posts. Which option is better?
Someone like Robinson would get destroyed on Question Time. Here's Andrew Neil with Alex Jones:
They can't debate sensibly for five minutes once their views are challenged. It would be a long hour on something like QT.
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:01 - Oct 14 by J2BLUE
I don't like to see this to be honest.It just gives them exactly what they want and they can then throw the shutting down debate and intolerance of other views stuff around. Beat them with reasoning, logic, empathy and decency rather than throwing daft insults.
Their main thing seems to be telling each other that no one will listen to them and they need to form these groups to have their voices heard. It's why I strongly believe in giving the likes of Tommy Robinson a legit platform. Get him on Question Time, get him one on one with someone like Andrew Neil or David Dimbleby. Give them enough rope to hang themselves.
They'll find a compelling enough speaker / actor with loose enough morals and then we end up in even worse trouble.
Trump got elected and was up front with his racist, sexist ignorant narcissism, because he knew how to exploit the temporarily embarrassed millionaires of the dust bowls.
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This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:14 - Oct 14 with 4831 views
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:08 - Oct 14 by Jonnosdreadlocks
wtf are you on about. Had it even occurred to you that I may not be white!! Your ignorance is embarrassing and your assumptions pathetic. Keep digging cos you prove my point about the left being the real intolerant Nazis/Fascists. How dare you infer I hate black people, that's pretty f@cking low.
[Post edited 14 Oct 2017 23:09]
Don't be racist, people wont call you out for it. Its really simple.
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This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:16 - Oct 14 with 4821 views
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:08 - Oct 14 by Jonnosdreadlocks
wtf are you on about. Had it even occurred to you that I may not be white!! Your ignorance is embarrassing and your assumptions pathetic. Keep digging cos you prove my point about the left being the real intolerant Nazis/Fascists. How dare you infer I hate black people, that's pretty f@cking low.
[Post edited 14 Oct 2017 23:09]
I think the Real Intolerant Nazis and Fascists are, you know, right wing Nazis and Fascists
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:11 - Oct 14 by J2BLUE
The bloke Callis mentions comes on here, sees himself and his mates being attacked and called Nazis, racists etc etc. What happens?
He comes on here sees the arguments he's hearing from that lot being soundly destroyed with calm intelligent posts. Which option is better?
Someone like Robinson would get destroyed on Question Time. Here's Andrew Neil with Alex Jones:
They can't debate sensibly for five minutes once their views are challenged. It would be a long hour on something like QT.
I get what you are saying J2. But lets go back a few years. We didn't see this level of intolerance and racism being accepted then, but now we have to excuse it now for 'free speech'? Certain political events have allowed racists to feel an amount of perceived legitimacy, and I am sorry, but I don't think that's right.
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This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:20 - Oct 14 with 4786 views
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:16 - Oct 14 by J2BLUE
I think the stupid ones are the ones who try and block them having a platform. I think it's spoilt, it's wrong and it's unhelpful.
Not everything deserves a platform.
For example, I don't like to see climate change deniers given an equal platform with climate change scientists. Treating them as equals gives them a legitimacy they don't deserve.
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:18 - Oct 14 by Darth_Koont
Well, maybe you can explain their position to me. What are they debating?
I'm not their spokesman. I'm not defending them. Get one of the leaders one on one and grill them about their links to far right groups, show them footage of right wing speeches at their marches, show them footage of Tommy Robinson being treated like a celebrity, ask them how marching against extremism is going to influence anything at all etc etc. Give them a platform purely to knock them down.
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:20 - Oct 14 by syntaxerror
I get what you are saying J2. But lets go back a few years. We didn't see this level of intolerance and racism being accepted then, but now we have to excuse it now for 'free speech'? Certain political events have allowed racists to feel an amount of perceived legitimacy, and I am sorry, but I don't think that's right.
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:20 - Oct 14 by syntaxerror
I get what you are saying J2. But lets go back a few years. We didn't see this level of intolerance and racism being accepted then, but now we have to excuse it now for 'free speech'? Certain political events have allowed racists to feel an amount of perceived legitimacy, and I am sorry, but I don't think that's right.
Agree 100%.
We've become ridiculously tolerant of everbody's "right to a platform". Personally, I believe everyone should be listened to but very few should be amplified.
Pronouns: He/Him
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This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:24 - Oct 14 with 4757 views
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:22 - Oct 14 by J2BLUE
Years ago Nick Griffin was on QT.
Yeah and look where we are now. Facing the polished, legitimised face of racism and bigotry.
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:20 - Oct 14 by SpruceMoose
Not everything deserves a platform.
For example, I don't like to see climate change deniers given an equal platform with climate change scientists. Treating them as equals gives them a legitimacy they don't deserve.
Who decides what gets a platform then? Can't you see how taking a platform away from these groups just makes the problem worse? I'm not saying give every idiot with 3 followes a platform to spread their message. I'm saying something like the FLA which has significant numbers can be damaged with the truth and the right person grilling one of their leaders. I agree with the theory that a lot of their members are unaware of what the group really is so why not expose them?
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:21 - Oct 14 by J2BLUE
I'm not their spokesman. I'm not defending them. Get one of the leaders one on one and grill them about their links to far right groups, show them footage of right wing speeches at their marches, show them footage of Tommy Robinson being treated like a celebrity, ask them how marching against extremism is going to influence anything at all etc etc. Give them a platform purely to knock them down.
Far too passive. Exactly the sort of space that bad people thrive in.
It's the absence of any logical and realistic argument that makes these people so dangerous. They're not trying to change anyone's minds just harness the minds that are empty.
Pronouns: He/Him
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This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:27 - Oct 14 with 4743 views
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:22 - Oct 14 by J2BLUE
Years ago Nick Griffin was on QT.
I watched it. Tommy Robinson was in the audience a few years ago too. You cant compare 2009 to 2017 though. The far right wont try to go so mainstream again, instead they will try underhand tactics like the FLA.
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This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:28 - Oct 14 with 4734 views
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:23 - Oct 14 by Darth_Koont
Agree 100%.
We've become ridiculously tolerant of everbody's "right to a platform". Personally, I believe everyone should be listened to but very few should be amplified.
Respect your view but I think you're totally wrong. If we are so confident that we're right (and when it comes to things like being against Islamophobia etc we clearly are) we should have nothing to fear in defeating these people with debate.
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:28 - Oct 14 by J2BLUE
Respect your view but I think you're totally wrong. If we are so confident that we're right (and when it comes to things like being against Islamophobia etc we clearly are) we should have nothing to fear in defeating these people with debate.
But they don't debate. That's the point.
What are they actually saying? Maybe I've missed it.
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This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:31 - Oct 14 with 4713 views
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:25 - Oct 14 by J2BLUE
Who decides what gets a platform then? Can't you see how taking a platform away from these groups just makes the problem worse? I'm not saying give every idiot with 3 followes a platform to spread their message. I'm saying something like the FLA which has significant numbers can be damaged with the truth and the right person grilling one of their leaders. I agree with the theory that a lot of their members are unaware of what the group really is so why not expose them?
I kind of feel like those of that kind of political persuasion demonstrated quite well during the 30s and 40s what happens when they're given a platform.
And this thread is exposing just what the reality of what the group is. Most of the people involved are quite comfortable with it, I suspect. It's not hard to educate yourself about it.
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:25 - Oct 14 by J2BLUE
Who decides what gets a platform then? Can't you see how taking a platform away from these groups just makes the problem worse? I'm not saying give every idiot with 3 followes a platform to spread their message. I'm saying something like the FLA which has significant numbers can be damaged with the truth and the right person grilling one of their leaders. I agree with the theory that a lot of their members are unaware of what the group really is so why not expose them?
Though should hate preachers such as that Abu Hamza be allowed a platform for similar reasons?
Surely the point of these upstanding folk is that his type should not be permitted a platform?
I certainly don't think anyone with extreme views should be allowed to spread them in case they do get through to a vulnerable few.
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:28 - Oct 14 by J2BLUE
Respect your view but I think you're totally wrong. If we are so confident that we're right (and when it comes to things like being against Islamophobia etc we clearly are) we should have nothing to fear in defeating these people with debate.
How many people watch the BBC though? I have seen some posters on here call then a communist propaganda mouthpiece.
The people we are talking about may well get more of their 'news' from the Daily Mail / Breitbart or social media feeds that tell them what they want to hear.
Lets face it, people want to hear what they want to hear.
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This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:36 - Oct 14 with 4687 views
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:30 - Oct 14 by Darth_Koont
But they don't debate. That's the point.
What are they actually saying? Maybe I've missed it.
Again, i'm not their spokesman. They are marching against all forms of extremism whatever that means.
I'm not suggesting we give these people a weekly slot. I'm talking about when movements like the FLA begin and get going we give them one interview where they are absolutely hammered with blow and after blow of footage, questions and their various links to extremist groups. Once they are fully exposed some people who didn't know their true intentions and aims will reconsider their membership. After that we know the ones who remain are sympathetic to those aims and beliefs and if they retain significant numbers they shouldn't be invited back or given any more coverage of any sort. That's all i'm saying. If that's considered radical or wrong then we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree.
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:25 - Oct 14 by J2BLUE
Who decides what gets a platform then? Can't you see how taking a platform away from these groups just makes the problem worse? I'm not saying give every idiot with 3 followes a platform to spread their message. I'm saying something like the FLA which has significant numbers can be damaged with the truth and the right person grilling one of their leaders. I agree with the theory that a lot of their members are unaware of what the group really is so why not expose them?
The issue is not about giving people a platform, it's about how much weight is given to each argument by the media. If 97% of scientists state that climate change is a real thing, then they should get 97% of the airtime when the issue is discussed. For all its faults, Wikipedia handles this sort of thing quite well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Due_and_undue_weig
I had no problem with Nick Griffin being on Question Time. Omitting him from the programme would have only served to make him a martyr in some people's eye. Like you say, better to have him on and expose him (and I think he was exposed as a rather nasty piece of work - I recall his comments on homosexuality in particular).
I think if we'd had a proportional electoral system and had UKIP in Westminster in significant numbers, they'd have been more greatly exposed for the buffoons that they are. Instead they're largely concentrated in the EU parliament where their general uselessness is too far away to be noticed.
[Post edited 14 Oct 2017 23:39]
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This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:39 - Oct 14 with 4662 views
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:36 - Oct 14 by J2BLUE
Again, i'm not their spokesman. They are marching against all forms of extremism whatever that means.
I'm not suggesting we give these people a weekly slot. I'm talking about when movements like the FLA begin and get going we give them one interview where they are absolutely hammered with blow and after blow of footage, questions and their various links to extremist groups. Once they are fully exposed some people who didn't know their true intentions and aims will reconsider their membership. After that we know the ones who remain are sympathetic to those aims and beliefs and if they retain significant numbers they shouldn't be invited back or given any more coverage of any sort. That's all i'm saying. If that's considered radical or wrong then we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree.
"They shouldn't be invited back or given any more coverage " - then we agree.
The situation you describe is already where we are now with the FLA.
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This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:40 - Oct 14 with 4659 views
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:32 - Oct 14 by jeera
Though should hate preachers such as that Abu Hamza be allowed a platform for similar reasons?
Surely the point of these upstanding folk is that his type should not be permitted a platform?
I certainly don't think anyone with extreme views should be allowed to spread them in case they do get through to a vulnerable few.
IIRC Abu Hamza was one man standing on a street corner. The FLA have hijacked football including the name of our club as a cover for their true purpose. I'm simply suggesting we give groups like that enough rope to hang themselves on a one off basis.
There were 40,000 at the last march. Some, perhaps even most, will know the score and be ok with it. Others will really believe it's a case of football fans uniting against extremism. I think a thirty minute to one hour hatchet job would be beneficial. It seems i'm in the minority.
This 80s reboot gets worse by the day... on 23:36 - Oct 14 by J2BLUE
Again, i'm not their spokesman. They are marching against all forms of extremism whatever that means.
I'm not suggesting we give these people a weekly slot. I'm talking about when movements like the FLA begin and get going we give them one interview where they are absolutely hammered with blow and after blow of footage, questions and their various links to extremist groups. Once they are fully exposed some people who didn't know their true intentions and aims will reconsider their membership. After that we know the ones who remain are sympathetic to those aims and beliefs and if they retain significant numbers they shouldn't be invited back or given any more coverage of any sort. That's all i'm saying. If that's considered radical or wrong then we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree.
If the FLA were marching against all forms of extremism, it would be more acceptable. But they aren't. Their leaders are right wing extremists. and a lot of their followers are too. Its just a cover story to entice people to the far right, just like the National Front did to football fans in the 80s.
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