| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote 23:45 - Sep 8 with 42412 views | ElderGrizzly |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 21:17 - Sep 9 with 3944 views | No9 |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 18:52 - Sep 9 by StokieBlue |
That is technically true.
However hasn't he also said the brexit vote must be respected? Further to that hasn't he always been anti-EU?
He's had plenty of time to oppose brexit if he wanted to, instead he tells his MPs to abstain and lets the Tories continue to mess it up. Even just making the votes close applies pressure which could help. This alone has been a pretty inexcusable approach to brexit in my opinion.
SB |
It's a tory show.
Maybe Mr Corbyn thinks if he puts too much into anything like what the Lib-Dems are doing he will lose members too? |  | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 21:21 - Sep 9 with 3938 views | No9 |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 18:55 - Sep 9 by sparks |
Hasnt he kicked out senior colleagues who had the nerve to say it would be a good idea? |
Which member did he kick out?
Are you confusing this with the MP's the constituents have placed a vote of no confidence in?
But after this morning you shouldn't be more concerned about the severe lack of basic competance of the government front bench? | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 21:37 - Sep 9 with 3912 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 21:17 - Sep 9 by No9 |
It's a tory show.
Maybe Mr Corbyn thinks if he puts too much into anything like what the Lib-Dems are doing he will lose members too? |
Simplistic buck-passing.
Are you saying parties MPs shouldn't do what's in the best interests of their constituents in order to score political points?
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 21:50 - Sep 9 with 3883 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 20:23 - Sep 9 by Bluesquid |
"one of which was intended to influence Labour party policy, while appearing to obscure their links to Israel."
Oh dear.
"One former minister in David Cameron’s government said the embassy’s efforts to exert improper influence on British public life went far further than any plot to “take down” unhelpful members of parliament."
Writing anonymously in the Mail on Sunday, the former minister said: “British foreign policy is in hock to Israeli influence at the heart of our politics, and those in authority have ignored what is going on.
“For years the CFI and LFI have worked with — even for — the Israeli embassy to promote Israeli policy and thwart UK government policy and the actions of ministers who try to defend Palestinian rights.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/08/israeli-diplomat-shai-masot-plotte |
I'm surprised Glasgow and/or Lomhouse haven't responded to this......surely it must threaten that loyalty trope with a gentle hand grenade!
No wonder it was included in the examples! [Post edited 9 Sep 2018 21:51]
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:04 - Sep 9 with 3861 views | No9 |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 21:37 - Sep 9 by StokieBlue |
Simplistic buck-passing.
Are you saying parties MPs shouldn't do what's in the best interests of their constituents in order to score political points?
SB |
Not buck passing at all, they are politicians
didn't Mrs May's constituents vote to remain- is she honouring their vote?
Are the activities or Messrs Redwood & Rees-Mogg IN the interst of anyone but themselves?
The Westminster village is bigger than just Mr Corbyn - | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:10 - Sep 9 with 3853 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 20:54 - Sep 9 by lowhouseblue |
yes, you're right, i shouldn't have made a joke about gromfart.
let's all be nice. |
LOL. And you've downarrowed me for pointing it out.
You fcuking hypocrite. |  |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:10 - Sep 9 with 3853 views | No9 |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 20:23 - Sep 9 by Bluesquid |
"one of which was intended to influence Labour party policy, while appearing to obscure their links to Israel."
Oh dear.
"One former minister in David Cameron’s government said the embassy’s efforts to exert improper influence on British public life went far further than any plot to “take down” unhelpful members of parliament."
Writing anonymously in the Mail on Sunday, the former minister said: “British foreign policy is in hock to Israeli influence at the heart of our politics, and those in authority have ignored what is going on.
“For years the CFI and LFI have worked with — even for — the Israeli embassy to promote Israeli policy and thwart UK government policy and the actions of ministers who try to defend Palestinian rights.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/08/israeli-diplomat-shai-masot-plotte |
“For years the CFI and LFI have worked with — even for — the Israeli embassy to promote Israeli policy and thwart UK government policy and the actions of ministers who try to defend Palestinian rights.”
You are not supposed to notice things like that. Just as you are not supposed to notice the activities of the American or British in the M.E. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:21 - Sep 9 with 3837 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:10 - Sep 9 by BrixtonBlue |
LOL. And you've downarrowed me for pointing it out.
You fcuking hypocrite. |
that's not very nice. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:23 - Sep 9 with 3830 views | Bluesquid |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 21:50 - Sep 9 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I'm surprised Glasgow and/or Lomhouse haven't responded to this......surely it must threaten that loyalty trope with a gentle hand grenade!
No wonder it was included in the examples! [Post edited 9 Sep 2018 21:51]
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You won't get a response, of that i can assure you. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:31 - Sep 9 with 3819 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 21:50 - Sep 9 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I'm surprised Glasgow and/or Lomhouse haven't responded to this......surely it must threaten that loyalty trope with a gentle hand grenade!
No wonder it was included in the examples! [Post edited 9 Sep 2018 21:51]
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not going to be sucked back into this. but clearly the israeli embassy promoting israeli interests does not fall within the ihra definition or examples. every embassy in every country carries out political lobbying. israeli diplomats are loyal to israel just as british diplomats throughout the world are loyal to britain. nothing to see here. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:33 - Sep 9 with 3810 views | Bluesquid |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:31 - Sep 9 by lowhouseblue |
not going to be sucked back into this. but clearly the israeli embassy promoting israeli interests does not fall within the ihra definition or examples. every embassy in every country carries out political lobbying. israeli diplomats are loyal to israel just as british diplomats throughout the world are loyal to britain. nothing to see here. |
You must of missed this part...
"For years the CFI and LFI have worked with — even for — the Israeli embassy"
The LFI. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:33 - Sep 9 with 3807 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 18:55 - Sep 9 by Gromheort |
He certainly comes from a Bennite tradition on Europe. That changed when he was convinced the working classes would be better off by staying within the EU (and more radical change within its apparatus was possible). I personally thought he was wrong, but I'm a minority in the party. |
When did he change his mind? There seems little evidence of it, his stance on brexit seems to have publicly remained the same. His actions, which are probably more telling, are also the same - order the party to abstain in votes where he should be pushing the government (he did this as recently as June).
Furthermore if his stance has changed on brexit why the continual infighting in Labour - highlighted this weekend with the very public spat between Chuka and McDonnell?
You might be right, but where's the evidence for any of it?
SB | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:35 - Sep 9 with 3800 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:04 - Sep 9 by No9 |
Not buck passing at all, they are politicians
didn't Mrs May's constituents vote to remain- is she honouring their vote?
Are the activities or Messrs Redwood & Rees-Mogg IN the interst of anyone but themselves?
The Westminster village is bigger than just Mr Corbyn - |
You've missed the point again :(.
SB [Post edited 9 Sep 2018 22:36]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:36 - Sep 9 with 3797 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 21:37 - Sep 9 by StokieBlue |
Simplistic buck-passing.
Are you saying parties MPs shouldn't do what's in the best interests of their constituents in order to score political points?
SB |
If Labour had said "stuff the referendum" it would have been an affront to the political process. Their actions have been rational.
However, there has been a major deficiency. When there was a need for unity, the likes of Frank Field let the party down. |  | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:36 - Sep 9 with 3793 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:33 - Sep 9 by Bluesquid |
You must of missed this part...
"For years the CFI and LFI have worked with — even for — the Israeli embassy"
The LFI. |
and the article says that previously most labour mps joined and almost all tory mps joined their equivalent. read the article. that's very powerful lobbying for sure, but it's obviously got nothing to do with the ihra definitions or examples. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:43 - Sep 9 with 3761 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:36 - Sep 9 by Gromheort |
If Labour had said "stuff the referendum" it would have been an affront to the political process. Their actions have been rational.
However, there has been a major deficiency. When there was a need for unity, the likes of Frank Field let the party down. |
So you are saying that Corbyn orders his MPs to abstain because it would be an affront to democracy to oppose brexit rather than being something he actually wants?
I think that's a stretch but OK.
That doesn't however stop him pushing the government on the actual specifics of brexit which he could do my making votes close enough for small rebellions to make a difference. He doesn't do that - why not?
Can you elaborate how Field has let the party down? If you mention antisemitism accusations then it's got nothing to do with what I have been saying in this thread.
SB | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:50 - Sep 9 with 3739 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:43 - Sep 9 by StokieBlue |
So you are saying that Corbyn orders his MPs to abstain because it would be an affront to democracy to oppose brexit rather than being something he actually wants?
I think that's a stretch but OK.
That doesn't however stop him pushing the government on the actual specifics of brexit which he could do my making votes close enough for small rebellions to make a difference. He doesn't do that - why not?
Can you elaborate how Field has let the party down? If you mention antisemitism accusations then it's got nothing to do with what I have been saying in this thread.
SB |
Not a stretch at all. You think it would be credible for Labour to blanket reject the Brexit position? It wouldn't.
Where appropriate (such as the parliamentary role), they've pushed. That push would have led to a key government loss, if not for Field and co.
Of course there is a limit to what Labour can do. The 'deal' , which they have no control over, will determine final position. As I said, I would be surprised if that leads to a new referendum. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:53 - Sep 9 with 3729 views | Bluesquid |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:36 - Sep 9 by lowhouseblue |
and the article says that previously most labour mps joined and almost all tory mps joined their equivalent. read the article. that's very powerful lobbying for sure, but it's obviously got nothing to do with the ihra definitions or examples. |
Your right it's got nothing to do with the ihra but everything to do with the LFI cooperating and working with a foreign power in order to influence and interfere with democratic politics.
This subversion of UK parliamentary democracy and in this case labour policies was only made possible by the actions of the LFI. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:55 - Sep 9 with 3727 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:31 - Sep 9 by lowhouseblue |
not going to be sucked back into this. but clearly the israeli embassy promoting israeli interests does not fall within the ihra definition or examples. every embassy in every country carries out political lobbying. israeli diplomats are loyal to israel just as british diplomats throughout the world are loyal to britain. nothing to see here. |
You must have failed to read this bit where they are attemping to get politicians to act in the interests of the Israeli state rather than independent British government policy as they have shaped it.......inconvenient isn't it!
"One former minister in David Cameron’s government said the embassy’s efforts to exert improper influence on British public life went far further than any plot to “take down” unhelpful members of parliament.Writing anonymously in the Mail on Sunday, the former minister said: “British foreign policy is in hock to Israeli influence at the heart of our politics, and those in authority have ignored what is going on.
“For years the CFI and LFI have worked with — even for — the Israeli embassy to promote Israeli policy and thwart UK government policy and the actions of ministers who try to defend Palestinian rights.”
The former minister said there needed to be a full inquiry into the Israeli embassy’s links with CFI and LFI, and that while political parties should welcome funding from the UK’s Jewish community, they should not accept any engagement linked to Israel until it ceases new developments on Palestinian land.
“This opaque funding and underhand conduct is a national disgrace and humiliation and must be stamped out,” he wrote.
After an apology from the Israeli ambassador to the UK, Mark Regev, the British government said it considered the matter closed."
.....I bet he wants to consider it closed ! [Post edited 9 Sep 2018 23:00]
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:00 - Sep 9 with 3712 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:50 - Sep 9 by Gromheort |
Not a stretch at all. You think it would be credible for Labour to blanket reject the Brexit position? It wouldn't.
Where appropriate (such as the parliamentary role), they've pushed. That push would have led to a key government loss, if not for Field and co.
Of course there is a limit to what Labour can do. The 'deal' , which they have no control over, will determine final position. As I said, I would be surprised if that leads to a new referendum. |
So the obvious follow-up to that is why did at 90 Labour MPs ignore the whip in June if it's felt Labour are pushing as you've claimed?
SB | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:09 - Sep 9 with 3694 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:00 - Sep 9 by StokieBlue |
So the obvious follow-up to that is why did at 90 Labour MPs ignore the whip in June if it's felt Labour are pushing as you've claimed?
SB |
The PLP is split, obviously. Many think we should simply ape the Lib Dems. That way guarantees disaster: both in terms of losing voters and also failing to hold the government to account (as it would undoubtedly lead to more conservatism amongst the Conservatives). | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:11 - Sep 9 with 3686 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:36 - Sep 9 by lowhouseblue |
and the article says that previously most labour mps joined and almost all tory mps joined their equivalent. read the article. that's very powerful lobbying for sure, but it's obviously got nothing to do with the ihra definitions or examples. |
So let's imagine Corbyn forms a future government with a more pro Palestine UK government policy and Israeli embassy funded members of LFI and CFI push the current right wing Israeli line who would their loyalty be to?
More to the point how is democracy and debate furthered by not being allowed to raise this as a possibility without being branded an anti semite? | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:12 - Sep 9 with 3683 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:53 - Sep 9 by Bluesquid |
Your right it's got nothing to do with the ihra but everything to do with the LFI cooperating and working with a foreign power in order to influence and interfere with democratic politics.
This subversion of UK parliamentary democracy and in this case labour policies was only made possible by the actions of the LFI. |
there are parliamentary groups for just about every country or interest you can imagine. but the israeli embassy is definitely very effective in promoting israeli interests. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:14 - Sep 9 with 3674 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:09 - Sep 9 by Gromheort |
The PLP is split, obviously. Many think we should simply ape the Lib Dems. That way guarantees disaster: both in terms of losing voters and also failing to hold the government to account (as it would undoubtedly lead to more conservatism amongst the Conservatives). |
So many within the Labour party don't think Labour are pushing like you claim.
Do they really think you should ape the Lib Dems or do they just want to push the Tories into making concessions which would be good for the country and are told not to do this by the leadership? It just doesn't seem to stack up with your original post with JC changing his mind on the EU and brexit.
"as it would undoubtedly lead to more conservatism amongst the Conservatives"
Are you sure about this? I'm not. I think there are some Tories who would rebel if there was actually a chance of success. Unfortunately we will never know.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:14 - Sep 9 with 3672 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:11 - Sep 9 by BanksterDebtSlave |
So let's imagine Corbyn forms a future government with a more pro Palestine UK government policy and Israeli embassy funded members of LFI and CFI push the current right wing Israeli line who would their loyalty be to?
More to the point how is democracy and debate furthered by not being allowed to raise this as a possibility without being branded an anti semite? |
would lfi or cfi be disloyal to britain? i doubt it, but who knows. but since these aren't jewish organisations you're chasing the wrong fox here i'm afraid. [Post edited 9 Sep 2018 23:15]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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