| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote 23:45 - Sep 8 with 42413 views | ElderGrizzly |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:21 - Sep 9 with 2544 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:14 - Sep 9 by StokieBlue |
So many within the Labour party don't think Labour are pushing like you claim.
Do they really think you should ape the Lib Dems or do they just want to push the Tories into making concessions which would be good for the country and are told not to do this by the leadership? It just doesn't seem to stack up with your original post with JC changing his mind on the EU and brexit.
"as it would undoubtedly lead to more conservatism amongst the Conservatives"
Are you sure about this? I'm not. I think there are some Tories who would rebel if there was actually a chance of success. Unfortunately we will never know.
SB |
Labour learnt from the Scottish referendum. They're a little more canny now. The PLP, many of whom helped with the "5 million lost voters", aren't necessarily best placed to determine policy.
We didn't win a key amendment. Field and co ensured that. So your "unfortunately we will never know" isn't credible. It would have been more pointless to vote against the government elsewhere (as you also know, given if Labour hadn't abstained the votes would still have been lost) |  | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:26 - Sep 9 with 2531 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:21 - Sep 9 by Gromheort |
Labour learnt from the Scottish referendum. They're a little more canny now. The PLP, many of whom helped with the "5 million lost voters", aren't necessarily best placed to determine policy.
We didn't win a key amendment. Field and co ensured that. So your "unfortunately we will never know" isn't credible. It would have been more pointless to vote against the government elsewhere (as you also know, given if Labour hadn't abstained the votes would still have been lost) |
So you expect sitting MPs, some of whom have been Labour MPs for many years to just go along with changes in policy they don't agree with?
Who is "best placed to determine policy"?
You've misrepresented my point or I've not explained it well. If Labour hadn't abstained and it was known they weren't going to then you have no idea whether there would have been Tory rebels. Just adding up historical numbers isn't an analysis. The situation would have been totally different.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:26 - Sep 9 with 2522 views | Bluesquid |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:14 - Sep 9 by lowhouseblue |
would lfi or cfi be disloyal to britain? i doubt it, but who knows. but since these aren't jewish organisations you're chasing the wrong fox here i'm afraid. [Post edited 9 Sep 2018 23:15]
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A foreign power has been working with the LFI in order to influence and interfere with UK labour party democratic politics.
It's stated in the article. |  | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:28 - Sep 9 with 2524 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:26 - Sep 9 by Bluesquid |
A foreign power has been working with the LFI in order to influence and interfere with UK labour party democratic politics.
It's stated in the article. |
yes, it's called lobbying. it's part of the reason countries have embassies. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:34 - Sep 9 with 2509 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:26 - Sep 9 by StokieBlue |
So you expect sitting MPs, some of whom have been Labour MPs for many years to just go along with changes in policy they don't agree with?
Who is "best placed to determine policy"?
You've misrepresented my point or I've not explained it well. If Labour hadn't abstained and it was known they weren't going to then you have no idea whether there would have been Tory rebels. Just adding up historical numbers isn't an analysis. The situation would have been totally different.
SB |
The PLP can do what they want. Often, however, they make the wrong decision (e.g. Right Wing Labour support for attacks on welfare).
We know that the votes were lost, including the recent vital one. You seem to want to play pretend, either suggesting the government could be hamstrung or it could directly determine government policy. It couldn't achieve any of that. It has fought where appropriate and held back where appropriate. Its now in a good position to determine the final outcome, where its practical approach allows a shift of emphasis to a 2nd vote if appropriate. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:38 - Sep 9 with 2492 views | Bluesquid |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:28 - Sep 9 by lowhouseblue |
yes, it's called lobbying. it's part of the reason countries have embassies. |
These LFI members should of put UK Parliamentary democracy first but they didn't did they?
They chose to instead serve and put the interests of a foreign power before UK democratic process. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:44 - Sep 9 with 2484 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:38 - Sep 9 by Bluesquid |
These LFI members should of put UK Parliamentary democracy first but they didn't did they?
They chose to instead serve and put the interests of a foreign power before UK democratic process. |
do you have any proof of that? it's quite an accusation. you've gone from a hypothetical possibility to a huge accusation and the only thing referred to so far is some unattributed hearsay in a two year old article. proof of mps serving the interests of a foreign power is probably needed before we go any further with this. and then we probably need to tip off the parliamentary authorities. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:56 - Sep 9 with 2463 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:34 - Sep 9 by Gromheort |
The PLP can do what they want. Often, however, they make the wrong decision (e.g. Right Wing Labour support for attacks on welfare).
We know that the votes were lost, including the recent vital one. You seem to want to play pretend, either suggesting the government could be hamstrung or it could directly determine government policy. It couldn't achieve any of that. It has fought where appropriate and held back where appropriate. Its now in a good position to determine the final outcome, where its practical approach allows a shift of emphasis to a 2nd vote if appropriate. |
I'm not playing pretend, I'm saying that using historical data to say something would have definitely happened under a different set of conditions is a deeply flawed way of conducting an analysis.
In two recent votes there were 11 and 14 Tory rebels which indicates that the support is on an issue by issue basis. Saying nothing would change if Labour had pushed some other points seems a little hasty.
I'm not saying they could have affected everything, I do think they could have affected some things though.
Can I ask how Labour is in a good position to determine the final outcome if, as you've stated, it doesn't matter if Labour vote or not. If you solely mean a change of policy to allow a 2nd vote if Labour are elected isn't that going against your very first reply in this exchange and won't that come too late anyway?
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:58 - Sep 9 with 2452 views | Bluesquid |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:44 - Sep 9 by lowhouseblue |
do you have any proof of that? it's quite an accusation. you've gone from a hypothetical possibility to a huge accusation and the only thing referred to so far is some unattributed hearsay in a two year old article. proof of mps serving the interests of a foreign power is probably needed before we go any further with this. and then we probably need to tip off the parliamentary authorities. |
The Guardian is fake news?
Will have to remember that the next time it's linked to on this forum which is nearly everyday.
I take it then that you don't believe any of this Skripal bunkum which has been blamed on the Russian state?
I mean, at least not until you have seen the proof that is? | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 00:20 - Sep 10 with 2442 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:43 - Sep 9 by BrixtonBlue |
I know.
Grizzley likes to throw these little barbs out at JC every now and again and then disappear. Like a watered down Glassers. All part of the 'throw enough mud, some will stick' agenda. |
Disappear. Jump on a plane. Have a job etc etc...
No mud throwing, just Corbyn and Labour have either backed or not stopped the current direction of Brexit when the opportunity arose and actually sacked shadow-cabinet members who voted to try and do so.
Now, the major financial backers of the party are suggesting a second vote is the way to go. It will be interesting to me if Corbyn holds his ground, or if the Unions influence here.
No need for barbs, or faux nastiness, just a genuine debate. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 04:59 - Sep 10 with 2409 views | Benters2 |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:10 - Sep 9 by BrixtonBlue |
LOL. And you've downarrowed me for pointing it out.
You fcuking hypocrite. |
Tut tut | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 05:58 - Sep 10 with 2398 views | brogansnose |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 18:26 - Sep 9 by imsureazzure |
Problem with bricklaying? |
Clearly bricklayers are part of the few not the many that Labour stand for. |  | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 06:09 - Sep 10 with 2394 views | Benters2 |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 05:58 - Sep 10 by brogansnose |
Clearly bricklayers are part of the few not the many that Labour stand for. |
I make you right. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 06:36 - Sep 10 with 2383 views | brogansnose |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 18:52 - Sep 9 by Herbivore |
Isn't the suggestion that someone is a Momentum plant rather an attempt to corrode debate? You were against that a few hours ago. |
When people just drop in from nowhere to defend Corbyn in these sort of threads then it does give that impression especially when they don't post on football related threads and when challenged about that they come out with something vague. We've got enough bickering on here with our own without having interlopers. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 06:41 - Sep 10 with 2378 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:26 - Sep 9 by StokieBlue |
So you expect sitting MPs, some of whom have been Labour MPs for many years to just go along with changes in policy they don't agree with?
Who is "best placed to determine policy"?
You've misrepresented my point or I've not explained it well. If Labour hadn't abstained and it was known they weren't going to then you have no idea whether there would have been Tory rebels. Just adding up historical numbers isn't an analysis. The situation would have been totally different.
SB |
This appears to be ‘threatening’ sitting MPs in a very subtle, but creepy Owen Jones type way
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 07:01 - Sep 10 with 2369 views | Benters2 |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 06:36 - Sep 10 by brogansnose |
When people just drop in from nowhere to defend Corbyn in these sort of threads then it does give that impression especially when they don't post on football related threads and when challenged about that they come out with something vague. We've got enough bickering on here with our own without having interlopers. |
erm  | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 07:22 - Sep 10 with 2353 views | Swansea_Blue |
He still wants his rainbow unicorns then. The bloke’s a tool. And JC’s just weak and impotent.
We get what we deserve though. |  |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 08:20 - Sep 10 with 2333 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 21:21 - Sep 9 by No9 |
Which member did he kick out?
Are you confusing this with the MP's the constituents have placed a vote of no confidence in?
But after this morning you shouldn't be more concerned about the severe lack of basic competance of the government front bench? |
Owen Smith was sacked from the cabinet for suggesting a second referendum. Oddly enough, Diane Abbot, who suggested the same, was not.
I’ll leave you to draw you own conclusions as to why not. [Post edited 10 Sep 2018 8:54]
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 08:21 - Sep 10 with 2333 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:08 - Sep 9 by Gromheort |
It isn't. Corbyn hasn't made any decision on a 2nd vote. It makes sense for him to wait and see where the Tory stupidity goes.
There is a high chance of a 'no deal' outcome. In those circumstances, given Labour's 6 tests, I'd be surprised if they didn't support that vote. |
Are you here to spread disinformation in order to muddy the waters?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2018/jan/14/jeremy-corbyn-peston-sund
Although this being Corbyn you will no doubt suggest that what he said has been taken out of context. [Post edited 10 Sep 2018 8:23]
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 08:34 - Sep 10 with 2320 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:56 - Sep 9 by StokieBlue |
I'm not playing pretend, I'm saying that using historical data to say something would have definitely happened under a different set of conditions is a deeply flawed way of conducting an analysis.
In two recent votes there were 11 and 14 Tory rebels which indicates that the support is on an issue by issue basis. Saying nothing would change if Labour had pushed some other points seems a little hasty.
I'm not saying they could have affected everything, I do think they could have affected some things though.
Can I ask how Labour is in a good position to determine the final outcome if, as you've stated, it doesn't matter if Labour vote or not. If you solely mean a change of policy to allow a 2nd vote if Labour are elected isn't that going against your very first reply in this exchange and won't that come too late anyway?
SB |
Those votes are pertinent evidence. Labour's abstains didn't have any direct effect on the outcomes. It did, however, change the nature of the dialogue. Suppose Labour caved and went for a Lib Dem 'at all costs' approach. By kicking the referendum result in the knackers, it would have merely accentuated tribalism. We like to think its a clear 'Brexit versus Remain', where there are jolly decent politicians who will vote purely according to their constituency demands. Instead many of them are lily-livered and look for reason to keep within the whip. Pitching Labour as an enemy of democracy would certainly have helped that.
Once Labour chose to be more practical (with Starmer key to determining tone and path) it ensured a voice focused on defending the democratic process. An excuse to vote according to sense, no less. Given the strategies adopted, a call for a 2nd vote- if deemed appropriate- would be credible. It couldn't be condemned as a continuation of a toxic 'avoid Brexit at all costs'... | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 09:00 - Sep 10 with 2292 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 22:21 - Sep 9 by lowhouseblue |
that's not very nice. |
No, hypocrisy isn't, you're quite right. |  |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 09:05 - Sep 10 with 2283 views | No9 |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:26 - Sep 9 by StokieBlue |
So you expect sitting MPs, some of whom have been Labour MPs for many years to just go along with changes in policy they don't agree with?
Who is "best placed to determine policy"?
You've misrepresented my point or I've not explained it well. If Labour hadn't abstained and it was known they weren't going to then you have no idea whether there would have been Tory rebels. Just adding up historical numbers isn't an analysis. The situation would have been totally different.
SB |
Labour are in opposition.
There is very little if any possibility, with the new rules, of unseating any government.
When it comes to policies WHAT, is the policy of which, or any part of the party of government ?
That is far more important which you and others keep ignoring. | | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 09:06 - Sep 10 with 2283 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 06:36 - Sep 10 by brogansnose |
When people just drop in from nowhere to defend Corbyn in these sort of threads then it does give that impression especially when they don't post on football related threads and when challenged about that they come out with something vague. We've got enough bickering on here with our own without having interlopers. |
Suffolk/North Essexist! [Post edited 10 Sep 2018 9:11]
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 09:11 - Sep 10 with 2275 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 09:00 - Sep 10 by BrixtonBlue |
No, hypocrisy isn't, you're quite right. |
a new day but you're still being horrid.
this is all quite hurtful you know. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 09:12 - Sep 10 with 2266 views | No9 |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 23:56 - Sep 9 by StokieBlue |
I'm not playing pretend, I'm saying that using historical data to say something would have definitely happened under a different set of conditions is a deeply flawed way of conducting an analysis.
In two recent votes there were 11 and 14 Tory rebels which indicates that the support is on an issue by issue basis. Saying nothing would change if Labour had pushed some other points seems a little hasty.
I'm not saying they could have affected everything, I do think they could have affected some things though.
Can I ask how Labour is in a good position to determine the final outcome if, as you've stated, it doesn't matter if Labour vote or not. If you solely mean a change of policy to allow a 2nd vote if Labour are elected isn't that going against your very first reply in this exchange and won't that come too late anyway?
SB |
"In two recent votes there were 11 and 14 Tory rebels which indicates that the support is on an issue by issue basis. Saying nothing would change if Labour had pushed some other points seems a little hasty. "
You should know the tory party will allow JUST enough to make it look real.
How many times has this happened over the last 70 years?
It is unthinkable now that tory rebels will bring down a tory government - the party is more important than the country - why do you think the party exists? & despite the fact it has seriuksly declining numbers the right people will always be selected to stand as candidates.
& when an alternative is offered it seems you would vote against tha alternative | | | |
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