| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote 23:45 - Sep 8 with 42479 views | ElderGrizzly |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:37 - Sep 10 with 1796 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:21 - Sep 10 by Gromheort |
You didn't follow the point. That's a shame, given I repeatedly referred to how things would be different. I'll repeat the argument, see if that helps.
If Labour had been childish and adopted a position based on fighting all aspects of Brexit, they would merely have cemented tribalism (and shed votes). They would be weakened, both in Parliament and in electoral support. By adopting a position, based on a general premise of supporting the referendum outcome but also protecting parliamentary democracy, they give potential rebels pause for thought. And, as mentioned, it would have already paid dividends if not for Field and co.
In terms of a 2nd vote, they've also been rational (and arguably are on the same page as LSE output). There were childish calls for a 2nd referendum based on 'they lied' and 'they cheated'. This would always fall foul of 'asking the public until they do as they're told' attack. Instead, Labour are in a position to refer to the reality of the binary referendum question. The Tory Brexiteers have presented a false narrative. They argue that the British public voted to leave the EU at all costs. That's of course nonsense. Indeed, I voted Brexit but- if I was given the option 'replacing the EU agreement with WTO arrangements'- I would have told them to do one. Labour have rejected the limitation of binary choice. If anything, that maximises their impact. |
so you're presenting the politically strategic case for labour not having a policy on brexit. as i said several pages back their only strategy is to hope that they can act without principle to engineer a government defeat in a vote which will lead to an early election. to all practical purposes throughout the brexit process we have no opposition. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:37 - Sep 10 with 1795 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:00 - Sep 10 by lowhouseblue |
i do genuinely object to being called a liar. i guess in the context of this sort of debate we all say inconsistent things and over a long enough period we all can count as 'hypocrites'. but 'liar' i strongly object to. i don't doubt you think you've cleverly caught me in some linguistic inexactitude at some point and decided in your mind that you've got one over on me, but repeatedly publicly calling someone a liar unless you can really back it up is very unpleasant behaviour. repeating such a false claim is also a form bullying. |
I already proved one example ages ago and you ignored it, then when the dust settled you just dismissed it.
You said Corbyn had never criticised Russian military policy several times ...until I posted a video of him doing exactly that. You obfuscated the issue by saying Stop The War never said it, you didn't mean Corbyn literally.
I can't be arsed to search for it.
There have been plenty of others. That's why I don't debate with you now. There's no point if, when caught out, you're just going to lie, squirm and obfuscate.
Glasgow may be infuriating, repetitive, demand answers to questions then swerve yours, and be a massive hypocrite on a regular basis, but at least he doesn't lie (as far as I'm aware). |  |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:41 - Sep 10 with 1788 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:21 - Sep 10 by Gromheort |
You didn't follow the point. That's a shame, given I repeatedly referred to how things would be different. I'll repeat the argument, see if that helps.
If Labour had been childish and adopted a position based on fighting all aspects of Brexit, they would merely have cemented tribalism (and shed votes). They would be weakened, both in Parliament and in electoral support. By adopting a position, based on a general premise of supporting the referendum outcome but also protecting parliamentary democracy, they give potential rebels pause for thought. And, as mentioned, it would have already paid dividends if not for Field and co.
In terms of a 2nd vote, they've also been rational (and arguably are on the same page as LSE output). There were childish calls for a 2nd referendum based on 'they lied' and 'they cheated'. This would always fall foul of 'asking the public until they do as they're told' attack. Instead, Labour are in a position to refer to the reality of the binary referendum question. The Tory Brexiteers have presented a false narrative. They argue that the British public voted to leave the EU at all costs. That's of course nonsense. Indeed, I voted Brexit but- if I was given the option 'replacing the EU agreement with WTO arrangements'- I would have told them to do one. Labour have rejected the limitation of binary choice. If anything, that maximises their impact. |
I disagree with both paragraphs, you've also been rather condescending again which unfortunately seems to be your fallback position when you disagree with someone.
Not really much point going over your first paragraph, you refuse to address what I've said and write what you feel is the narrative you want to push.
You posted earlier:
"Its now in a good position to determine the final outcome"
Your second paragraph just states they have added to the debate. Earlier you said they can determine the final outcome. Which is it? At the moment, unless they stop abstaining and try and get a Tory rebellion I don't see how they can determine anything - they will have no actual power until everything is completed. You are overselling the strength of their position or perhaps in your mind that's how you see it.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:42 - Sep 10 with 1781 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:36 - Sep 10 by GlasgowBlue |
No. Sir Trevor Phillips has spoken. Not Glassers.
I'm sure you will agree that he is better qualified on the subject than a plastic anarchist of a pretend politician. |
Oh well if it's Sir........never heard of him, is he a bit like god or just a Chukka? (Blairite)
Edit.....and anyway is he a Town fan, if not should you really be referencing him! [Post edited 10 Sep 2018 10:46]
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:45 - Sep 10 with 1770 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:05 - Sep 10 by GlasgowBlue |
I stopped debating with Grom because this is a board for Ipswich Town fans to debate everything from football to cheese to politics. Grom isn't a Town fan. He is a momentum troll sent here to rebut criticism of the Jezziah. He last popped up on here during the election of 2017 then promptly disappeared the day after.
I have no wish to feed the troll. Although I note that he completely ignored this when put to him.
Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote by GlasgowBlue 10 Sep 2018 8:21Are you here to spread disinformation in order to muddy the waters?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2018/jan/14/jeremy-corbyn-peston-sunday-labour-not-calling-for-second-brexit-referendum-video
Although this being Corbyn you will no doubt suggest that what he said has been taken out of context.
He's probably waiting for instruction from Jon Lansman before answering.
As for ignoring you. That is only on the subject of antisemitism, as other posters have pointed out that the thread lasts an extra unnecessary 10 pages when you join in, and that ship has now well and truly sailed since Sir Trevor Phillips, a man who knows more about racism than you or I, stated this weekend that “[his] party is run by antisemites and racists”.
That debate is now ended and needs no further discussion [Post edited 10 Sep 2018 10:08]
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You won't be debating with Ulla then?
Whether or not Grom is a Town fan, it's irrelevant. This is ad hominem. If he changed his name to IpswichForever would you debate him then?
It's a pathetic excuse. The truth is he just happens to be knowledgable on this subject, and you don't like that. You want a free run at it with people who aren't quite as knowledgable. Low hanging fruit as you see them.
"He's probably waiting for instruction from Jon Lansman before answering."
Hilarious, given the amount of times you quote directly from Guido. Takes one to know one does it?
This last bit takes some beating though;
"the thread lasts an extra unnecessary 10 pages when you join in".
Like you're little miss sweet and innocent! Who am I debating with when it goes on for 10 pages then?! | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:46 - Sep 10 with 1768 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:37 - Sep 10 by BrixtonBlue |
I already proved one example ages ago and you ignored it, then when the dust settled you just dismissed it.
You said Corbyn had never criticised Russian military policy several times ...until I posted a video of him doing exactly that. You obfuscated the issue by saying Stop The War never said it, you didn't mean Corbyn literally.
I can't be arsed to search for it.
There have been plenty of others. That's why I don't debate with you now. There's no point if, when caught out, you're just going to lie, squirm and obfuscate.
Glasgow may be infuriating, repetitive, demand answers to questions then swerve yours, and be a massive hypocrite on a regular basis, but at least he doesn't lie (as far as I'm aware). |
please stop this. this is abuse and i'm fed up with it.
i can't be bothered to search for it. but we disagreed about the precise interpretation of an exchange. it was down to the exact comprehension of a sentence - and i explained what i was saying at the time. we took different views - no one lied. there are not plenty of others.
please stop posting that i am a liar - it is bullying and abusive and i'm sure it breaks the site terms. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:47 - Sep 10 with 1765 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:45 - Sep 10 by BrixtonBlue |
You won't be debating with Ulla then?
Whether or not Grom is a Town fan, it's irrelevant. This is ad hominem. If he changed his name to IpswichForever would you debate him then?
It's a pathetic excuse. The truth is he just happens to be knowledgable on this subject, and you don't like that. You want a free run at it with people who aren't quite as knowledgable. Low hanging fruit as you see them.
"He's probably waiting for instruction from Jon Lansman before answering."
Hilarious, given the amount of times you quote directly from Guido. Takes one to know one does it?
This last bit takes some beating though;
"the thread lasts an extra unnecessary 10 pages when you join in".
Like you're little miss sweet and innocent! Who am I debating with when it goes on for 10 pages then?! |
Those Guido and Gnasher chaps must be Town fans too! Otherwise I'm sure Glasgow wouldn't reference them! | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:48 - Sep 10 with 1764 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:33 - Sep 10 by lowhouseblue |
"I should've stuck to ignoring you like I said at the start. And anyone who wants a sensible debate should do the same."
i'm happy to leave this here. if you want to ignore my posts please do. if you want to put me on ignore please do. but please stop replying with post that are just insulting (if you want to discuss the substance of something with me then feel free to be as insulting as you like within that substantive discussion) and please stop calling me a liar. |
That's not encouraging people to pick on you.
pick on
phrasal verb of pick
repeatedly single (someone) out for criticism or unkind treatment in a way perceived to be unfair. | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:52 - Sep 10 with 1756 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:48 - Sep 10 by BrixtonBlue |
That's not encouraging people to pick on you.
pick on
phrasal verb of pick
repeatedly single (someone) out for criticism or unkind treatment in a way perceived to be unfair. |
don't be silly. encouraging people not to engage with a poster is 'unkind treatment'. stop this style of posting or put me on ignore - i don't care which. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:01 - Sep 10 with 1715 views | eireblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 09:31 - Sep 10 by GlasgowBlue |
No. I am fully supportive of a second referendum and have been for some time.
If we had a second referendum by GlasgowBlue 11 Jul 2018 15:36what would your preference for format and questions be? I'd have three questions.
1. Accept government deal
2. Stay in
3. Lave with no deal
We would use the second preference system which knocks one option out and eventualy one of the options gets over 50%
What amuses me most is those people who don't believe in referenda and believe the general public are either too thick or ill informed on such important matters to cast a vote are now calling for a second referendum.
[Post edited 10 Sep 2018 9:32]
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Would there be any other way to reverse the decision, other than another referendum?
I don't think a general election would be sufficient.
If a number of MPs and the Lords managed to reverse Brexit, I am sure the headlines would be interesting, and inciteful rather than insightful.
I think the position is similar to the Gina Millar case, if you granted rights by an act of parliament, then it is an act of parliament that is required to remove them. Which also attracted rather tasteless commentary.
In having a referendum in the first place, even an advisory one, the mistake has already been made.
So whether one believes they are a good or bad idea, it may be the only way to legitimately reverse a decision. |  | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:01 - Sep 10 with 1725 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:46 - Sep 10 by lowhouseblue |
please stop this. this is abuse and i'm fed up with it.
i can't be bothered to search for it. but we disagreed about the precise interpretation of an exchange. it was down to the exact comprehension of a sentence - and i explained what i was saying at the time. we took different views - no one lied. there are not plenty of others.
please stop posting that i am a liar - it is bullying and abusive and i'm sure it breaks the site terms. |
Crying abuse is a bit late now after all the grief you've given me over the last couple of years (repeatedly ganging up with Glassers for example).
But anyway, I've said my bit. There was no "disagreement about the precise interpretation of an exchange" or "the exact comprehension of a sentence" - even those phrases right there show up your squirming and obfuscation. No-one talks like that unless they're trying to get out of something. | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:06 - Sep 10 with 1704 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:52 - Sep 10 by lowhouseblue |
don't be silly. encouraging people not to engage with a poster is 'unkind treatment'. stop this style of posting or put me on ignore - i don't care which. |
Just do the same as several other posters mate and simply bid him good day. Otherwise you'll still be having this conversation at tea time tonight. [Post edited 10 Sep 2018 11:08]
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:11 - Sep 10 with 1679 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:01 - Sep 10 by BrixtonBlue |
Crying abuse is a bit late now after all the grief you've given me over the last couple of years (repeatedly ganging up with Glassers for example).
But anyway, I've said my bit. There was no "disagreement about the precise interpretation of an exchange" or "the exact comprehension of a sentence" - even those phrases right there show up your squirming and obfuscation. No-one talks like that unless they're trying to get out of something. |
i'm happy to leave this here. i am also happy to draw a line under whatever may have gone before and in future interact with you entirely civilly. i'll stick to that if you do. we'd probably both enjoy the board more of we let bygones look after themselves. it's an offer, but it's up to you. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:18 - Sep 10 with 1660 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:11 - Sep 10 by lowhouseblue |
i'm happy to leave this here. i am also happy to draw a line under whatever may have gone before and in future interact with you entirely civilly. i'll stick to that if you do. we'd probably both enjoy the board more of we let bygones look after themselves. it's an offer, but it's up to you. |
Not sure if this is a trap... but I accept. | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:21 - Sep 10 with 1645 views | m14_blue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:18 - Sep 10 by BrixtonBlue |
Not sure if this is a trap... but I accept. |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:22 - Sep 10 with 1643 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:18 - Sep 10 by BrixtonBlue |
Not sure if this is a trap... but I accept. |
excellent. so, nice to meet you and what is your favourite cheese? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:27 - Sep 10 with 1633 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:22 - Sep 10 by lowhouseblue |
excellent. so, nice to meet you and what is your favourite cheese? |
Davidstow. Yours? | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:30 - Sep 10 with 1625 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:27 - Sep 10 by BrixtonBlue |
Davidstow. Yours? |
i tell people it's a very ripe reblochon, but really it's a wensleydale with cherries. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:32 - Sep 10 with 1622 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 10:41 - Sep 10 by StokieBlue |
I disagree with both paragraphs, you've also been rather condescending again which unfortunately seems to be your fallback position when you disagree with someone.
Not really much point going over your first paragraph, you refuse to address what I've said and write what you feel is the narrative you want to push.
You posted earlier:
"Its now in a good position to determine the final outcome"
Your second paragraph just states they have added to the debate. Earlier you said they can determine the final outcome. Which is it? At the moment, unless they stop abstaining and try and get a Tory rebellion I don't see how they can determine anything - they will have no actual power until everything is completed. You are overselling the strength of their position or perhaps in your mind that's how you see it.
SB |
Sorry, but your position is born of naivety. Labour has recognised the most important aspect: there is no binary position created by the referendum. Instead, we have a practical and rational response. First, respect the referendum result. Second, provide detail over what form of Brexit is acceptable. Third, reinforce the importance of Parliamentary control. Fourth, be open over how to react to a deal (or no deal) outcome.
Now there are means to attack Corbyn. For example, Right Wing Labour are miffed over how his relative electoral success. That was of course for selfish reason, given their desire to protect undemocratic careerism. But there has been a consequence for the government's bargaining position. Without that 'strong and stable' tag winning through, May has had to pander to both sides of the party. The end result is a cretinous muddle.
But of course, in terms of the end game, that also increases the chances of a 2nd vote. Unlike the demands by the Remainers, it would be a rational vote and based on a sound footing. |  | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:36 - Sep 10 with 1610 views | CoachRob |
Glassers actually made a point I agree with - have more referendums. Not sure what effect a 2nd vote would have on poorer Labour voters? Is Brexit more important that domestic policy? Labour better off banging on about a "Jobs Brexit" for now and let the Tories collapse. |  | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:36 - Sep 10 with 1608 views | lowhouseblue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:32 - Sep 10 by Gromheort |
Sorry, but your position is born of naivety. Labour has recognised the most important aspect: there is no binary position created by the referendum. Instead, we have a practical and rational response. First, respect the referendum result. Second, provide detail over what form of Brexit is acceptable. Third, reinforce the importance of Parliamentary control. Fourth, be open over how to react to a deal (or no deal) outcome.
Now there are means to attack Corbyn. For example, Right Wing Labour are miffed over how his relative electoral success. That was of course for selfish reason, given their desire to protect undemocratic careerism. But there has been a consequence for the government's bargaining position. Without that 'strong and stable' tag winning through, May has had to pander to both sides of the party. The end result is a cretinous muddle.
But of course, in terms of the end game, that also increases the chances of a 2nd vote. Unlike the demands by the Remainers, it would be a rational vote and based on a sound footing. |
so to summarise - political opportunism and an absence of any parliamentary opposition. ok | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:38 - Sep 10 with 1605 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:36 - Sep 10 by CoachRob |
Glassers actually made a point I agree with - have more referendums. Not sure what effect a 2nd vote would have on poorer Labour voters? Is Brexit more important that domestic policy? Labour better off banging on about a "Jobs Brexit" for now and let the Tories collapse. |
There is no domestic policy. The government are paralyzed by Brexit. | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:39 - Sep 10 with 1605 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:32 - Sep 10 by Gromheort |
Sorry, but your position is born of naivety. Labour has recognised the most important aspect: there is no binary position created by the referendum. Instead, we have a practical and rational response. First, respect the referendum result. Second, provide detail over what form of Brexit is acceptable. Third, reinforce the importance of Parliamentary control. Fourth, be open over how to react to a deal (or no deal) outcome.
Now there are means to attack Corbyn. For example, Right Wing Labour are miffed over how his relative electoral success. That was of course for selfish reason, given their desire to protect undemocratic careerism. But there has been a consequence for the government's bargaining position. Without that 'strong and stable' tag winning through, May has had to pander to both sides of the party. The end result is a cretinous muddle.
But of course, in terms of the end game, that also increases the chances of a 2nd vote. Unlike the demands by the Remainers, it would be a rational vote and based on a sound footing. |
Start with an attack again, must be part of the playbook.
None of that shows how Labour can "determine the final outcome". It's a lovely party political broadcast though.
As an aside, can there be such a thing as right-wing Labour? Isn't talk like this the reason you have so much infighting at the moment?
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:47 - Sep 10 with 1587 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:39 - Sep 10 by StokieBlue |
Start with an attack again, must be part of the playbook.
None of that shows how Labour can "determine the final outcome". It's a lovely party political broadcast though.
As an aside, can there be such a thing as right-wing Labour? Isn't talk like this the reason you have so much infighting at the moment?
SB |
Just consistency. I can't hold my position and not see your argument as naive. It starts with that very premise.
Right Wing Labour is well documented. See, for example, Blair's acceptance of neoliberalism. However, Labour is now reclaimed as a broad church. Brexit has illustrated how that church works together. That can be more negative, such as all sides of the local party reacting against Field. But it's also positive, such as Starmer's role in practical based policy. | | | |
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