| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote 23:45 - Sep 8 with 42482 views | ElderGrizzly |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:47 - Sep 10 with 1732 views | giant_stow |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:32 - Sep 10 by Gromheort |
Sorry, but your position is born of naivety. Labour has recognised the most important aspect: there is no binary position created by the referendum. Instead, we have a practical and rational response. First, respect the referendum result. Second, provide detail over what form of Brexit is acceptable. Third, reinforce the importance of Parliamentary control. Fourth, be open over how to react to a deal (or no deal) outcome.
Now there are means to attack Corbyn. For example, Right Wing Labour are miffed over how his relative electoral success. That was of course for selfish reason, given their desire to protect undemocratic careerism. But there has been a consequence for the government's bargaining position. Without that 'strong and stable' tag winning through, May has had to pander to both sides of the party. The end result is a cretinous muddle.
But of course, in terms of the end game, that also increases the chances of a 2nd vote. Unlike the demands by the Remainers, it would be a rational vote and based on a sound footing. |
You've got some nerve referring to the Tory's "cretinous muddle" after listing Labour's non-policy to the whole thing (dressed in the cloak of 4 steps). |  |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:49 - Sep 10 with 1725 views | giant_stow |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:47 - Sep 10 by Gromheort |
Just consistency. I can't hold my position and not see your argument as naive. It starts with that very premise.
Right Wing Labour is well documented. See, for example, Blair's acceptance of neoliberalism. However, Labour is now reclaimed as a broad church. Brexit has illustrated how that church works together. That can be more negative, such as all sides of the local party reacting against Field. But it's also positive, such as Starmer's role in practical based policy. |
And again! 'Labour is now reclaimed as a broad church' - lol.
And you refer to local democracy in hushed reverential tones, while ignore the vast majority of labour voters were against brexit, but ignored by the leadership. | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:53 - Sep 10 with 1713 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:47 - Sep 10 by giant_stow |
You've got some nerve referring to the Tory's "cretinous muddle" after listing Labour's non-policy to the whole thing (dressed in the cloak of 4 steps). |
I'm sorry, only Ipswich supporters are allowed to discuss politics in here. |  |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:55 - Sep 10 with 1706 views | giant_stow |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:53 - Sep 10 by BrixtonBlue |
I'm sorry, only Ipswich supporters are allowed to discuss politics in here. |
silly sausage. | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:55 - Sep 10 with 1705 views | m14_blue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:30 - Sep 10 by lowhouseblue |
i tell people it's a very ripe reblochon, but really it's a wensleydale with cherries. |
If you don't want to get picked on maybe you shouldn't say stuff like this?!?
Fruit in cheese is the devil's work. |  | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:56 - Sep 10 with 1703 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:55 - Sep 10 by giant_stow |
silly sausage. |
I don't make the rules mate. Glassers does apparently. I'm quite happy for everyone to be allowed into the debate. | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:58 - Sep 10 with 1695 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:47 - Sep 10 by Gromheort |
Just consistency. I can't hold my position and not see your argument as naive. It starts with that very premise.
Right Wing Labour is well documented. See, for example, Blair's acceptance of neoliberalism. However, Labour is now reclaimed as a broad church. Brexit has illustrated how that church works together. That can be more negative, such as all sides of the local party reacting against Field. But it's also positive, such as Starmer's role in practical based policy. |
A premise which excludes anything but your position being the correct one and thus can be disregarded as naive, simplistic or inconsistent.
"However, Labour is now reclaimed as a broad church.".
Do you really believe that? Internal fighting would seem to indicate otherwise as would the constant stream of articles with MPs from both sides laying into each other.
If people feel it's true internally then that's good, it's not how anybody external views Labour though.
SB [Post edited 10 Sep 2018 11:59]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:58 - Sep 10 with 1694 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:49 - Sep 10 by giant_stow |
And again! 'Labour is now reclaimed as a broad church' - lol.
And you refer to local democracy in hushed reverential tones, while ignore the vast majority of labour voters were against brexit, but ignored by the leadership. |
Loved this effort! First, over a half million members guarantees heterogeneity. Second, you ignored my point. Perhaps you think Starmer is a member of Momentum? Third, it's the leadership that is behind the democratic review. They want more policy power going to the members.
Of course this is how Starmer and co can hold the government to account and minimise any damage from Brexit. Throwing your dummy out of the pram and tantrum screaming 'no Brexit at any cost' wouldn't have been particularly fruitful... |  | | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:02 - Sep 10 with 1679 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:58 - Sep 10 by Gromheort |
Loved this effort! First, over a half million members guarantees heterogeneity. Second, you ignored my point. Perhaps you think Starmer is a member of Momentum? Third, it's the leadership that is behind the democratic review. They want more policy power going to the members.
Of course this is how Starmer and co can hold the government to account and minimise any damage from Brexit. Throwing your dummy out of the pram and tantrum screaming 'no Brexit at any cost' wouldn't have been particularly fruitful... |
"First, over a half million members guarantees heterogeneity".
Nonsense. That's a non-sequitur argument.
The number of members does not in any way indicate a broad set of views.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:03 - Sep 10 with 1673 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:58 - Sep 10 by StokieBlue |
A premise which excludes anything but your position being the correct one and thus can be disregarded as naive, simplistic or inconsistent.
"However, Labour is now reclaimed as a broad church.".
Do you really believe that? Internal fighting would seem to indicate otherwise as would the constant stream of articles with MPs from both sides laying into each other.
If people feel it's true internally then that's good, it's not how anybody external views Labour though.
SB [Post edited 10 Sep 2018 11:59]
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Nope, always happy to hear critique. As a Brexit supporter, I received a lot of it within the party. That's a jolly thing. However, you haven't offered anything credible.
We actually don't see much infighting. At CLP there is a lot of common ground. I haven't encountered anyone in mine who is against the manifesto or against increased democracy within the party. There is just a small element within the PLP who can't accept democracy. Their views can sometimes seem exaggerated, given they're always on the BBC. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:06 - Sep 10 with 1655 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:22 - Sep 10 by lowhouseblue |
excellent. so, nice to meet you and what is your favourite cheese? |
In this beautiful spirit of entente cordiale.......would you like to join our gang Lowhouse If so I will send you the paperwork. |  |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:06 - Sep 10 with 1655 views | giant_stow |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:58 - Sep 10 by Gromheort |
Loved this effort! First, over a half million members guarantees heterogeneity. Second, you ignored my point. Perhaps you think Starmer is a member of Momentum? Third, it's the leadership that is behind the democratic review. They want more policy power going to the members.
Of course this is how Starmer and co can hold the government to account and minimise any damage from Brexit. Throwing your dummy out of the pram and tantrum screaming 'no Brexit at any cost' wouldn't have been particularly fruitful... |
my oh my, how limp.
So following the votes of of your members 'wouldn't have been particularly fruitful'? Why bother with voting at all? Just keep calm, keep your head down and let father Corbyn sort it out, while spouting lots of hot air about democracy. | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:08 - Sep 10 with 1649 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:03 - Sep 10 by Gromheort |
Nope, always happy to hear critique. As a Brexit supporter, I received a lot of it within the party. That's a jolly thing. However, you haven't offered anything credible.
We actually don't see much infighting. At CLP there is a lot of common ground. I haven't encountered anyone in mine who is against the manifesto or against increased democracy within the party. There is just a small element within the PLP who can't accept democracy. Their views can sometimes seem exaggerated, given they're always on the BBC. |
One persons "increased democracy" could easily be seen as one part of the party taking over and getting rid of the people who don't agree with them. That's a sure fire way to ensure you won't have a broad church.
Guess time will tell, this is in it's early stages for Labour.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:08 - Sep 10 with 1645 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:02 - Sep 10 by StokieBlue |
"First, over a half million members guarantees heterogeneity".
Nonsense. That's a non-sequitur argument.
The number of members does not in any way indicate a broad set of views.
SB |
Actually it does. Given individualism, a larger population will ensure greater variation in attitude. It's even more so with the left, given variation in political economy approach (e.g. green economics, social democracy, various approaches to economics).
You do tend to get more homogeneous thought from the right. Psychologists point to less analytical thinking and a tendency towards authoritarianism. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:11 - Sep 10 with 1638 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:08 - Sep 10 by StokieBlue |
One persons "increased democracy" could easily be seen as one part of the party taking over and getting rid of the people who don't agree with them. That's a sure fire way to ensure you won't have a broad church.
Guess time will tell, this is in it's early stages for Labour.
SB |
Strange to think democracy is a bad thing. It shifts the emphasis away from centralised power (e.g. parachuting Oxbridge friends into safe seats). [Post edited 10 Sep 2018 12:12]
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:12 - Sep 10 with 1631 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:08 - Sep 10 by Gromheort |
Actually it does. Given individualism, a larger population will ensure greater variation in attitude. It's even more so with the left, given variation in political economy approach (e.g. green economics, social democracy, various approaches to economics).
You do tend to get more homogeneous thought from the right. Psychologists point to less analytical thinking and a tendency towards authoritarianism. |
No it doesn't. You cited a non-sequitar argument: X is true therefore Y. It could just as easily be argued that people joining the same group show less individualism and thus re-enforce the echo chamber.
The last paragraph is just deflection because you've made a mistake on your initial point. It could easily be applied to momentum for instance where centralised organisation could be argued to reduce analytical thinking.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:14 - Sep 10 with 1619 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:11 - Sep 10 by Gromheort |
Strange to think democracy is a bad thing. It shifts the emphasis away from centralised power (e.g. parachuting Oxbridge friends into safe seats). [Post edited 10 Sep 2018 12:12]
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Where have I said it's a bad thing? I've said it could easily be seen in a different way. If you suddenly get a load of members who think the same way and remove people who don't is that democratic or authoritarian?
I'll accept it's well organised and is likely to succeed.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:15 - Sep 10 with 1616 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 11:53 - Sep 10 by BrixtonBlue |
I'm sorry, only Ipswich supporters are allowed to discuss politics in here. |
Ullaa hasn't been sent here by an organization with the sole intention of promoting the Corbyn brand. But you already knew that.
I bid you good day. |  |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:16 - Sep 10 with 1612 views | hype313 |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:14 - Sep 10 by StokieBlue |
Where have I said it's a bad thing? I've said it could easily be seen in a different way. If you suddenly get a load of members who think the same way and remove people who don't is that democratic or authoritarian?
I'll accept it's well organised and is likely to succeed.
SB |
cult
kÊŒlt/Submit
noun
1.
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St Olaf"
2.
a person or thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society.
"the series has become a bit of a cult in the UK"
synonyms: craze, fashion, fad, vogue; informalthing
"the series has become a bit of a cult in the UK" |  |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:19 - Sep 10 with 1600 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:12 - Sep 10 by StokieBlue |
No it doesn't. You cited a non-sequitar argument: X is true therefore Y. It could just as easily be argued that people joining the same group show less individualism and thus re-enforce the echo chamber.
The last paragraph is just deflection because you've made a mistake on your initial point. It could easily be applied to momentum for instance where centralised organisation could be argued to reduce analytical thinking.
SB |
You do seem to like the world of the binary. Thats actually common amongst the right, as shown by the experiments into the 'authoritarian personality'. The left are naturally splintered, but they do celebrate pluralist outcomes. I would be classed as more left wing than social democrats (with support for socialism), but distinct from many socialists (adopting a market version found to be consistent with Austrian economics). Despite that, we compromise and accept a common manifesto.
There is a rich diversity in the Labour Party. You may not recognise that, but that perhaps reflects your information sources? | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:20 - Sep 10 with 1591 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:16 - Sep 10 by hype313 |
cult
kÊŒlt/Submit
noun
1.
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St Olaf"
2.
a person or thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society.
"the series has become a bit of a cult in the UK"
synonyms: craze, fashion, fad, vogue; informalthing
"the series has become a bit of a cult in the UK" |
"Oh Jeremy Corbyn" | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:20 - Sep 10 with 1591 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:08 - Sep 10 by Gromheort |
Actually it does. Given individualism, a larger population will ensure greater variation in attitude. It's even more so with the left, given variation in political economy approach (e.g. green economics, social democracy, various approaches to economics).
You do tend to get more homogeneous thought from the right. Psychologists point to less analytical thinking and a tendency towards authoritarianism. |
If you ignore gold hoarding, bean stashing, gun bearing, survival of the fittest 'libertarians' ! | |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:22 - Sep 10 with 1583 views | StokieBlue |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:19 - Sep 10 by Gromheort |
You do seem to like the world of the binary. Thats actually common amongst the right, as shown by the experiments into the 'authoritarian personality'. The left are naturally splintered, but they do celebrate pluralist outcomes. I would be classed as more left wing than social democrats (with support for socialism), but distinct from many socialists (adopting a market version found to be consistent with Austrian economics). Despite that, we compromise and accept a common manifesto.
There is a rich diversity in the Labour Party. You may not recognise that, but that perhaps reflects your information sources? |
For someone who doesn't like binary definitions you're quite happy going with right and left and labelling people with one of those. Very kind of you to label me strictly right wing.
Let's see how the compromise goes over the next few years shall we.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:29 - Sep 10 with 1556 views | Gromheort |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:22 - Sep 10 by StokieBlue |
For someone who doesn't like binary definitions you're quite happy going with right and left and labelling people with one of those. Very kind of you to label me strictly right wing.
Let's see how the compromise goes over the next few years shall we.
SB |
Strange comment, given my point focused on the diversity in political economy. The left works well when it accepts pluralism. While pluralism is an alien concept to elements of the PLP, it is a necessary feature of such a large membership. Essentially folk have returned to a broad church where differences in opinion isn't just respected, it is expected. | | | |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:32 - Sep 10 with 1545 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Awkward for Labour and JC - Majority of Union members want a 2nd vote on 12:03 - Sep 10 by Gromheort |
Nope, always happy to hear critique. As a Brexit supporter, I received a lot of it within the party. That's a jolly thing. However, you haven't offered anything credible.
We actually don't see much infighting. At CLP there is a lot of common ground. I haven't encountered anyone in mine who is against the manifesto or against increased democracy within the party. There is just a small element within the PLP who can't accept democracy. Their views can sometimes seem exaggerated, given they're always on the BBC. |
As somebody else that held my nose and voted Lexit I have to admit to some second thoughts particularly with the continued march or the right here and the rest of Europe. However I still have no faith in the Varoufakis/Corbyn(!) dream of reform from within.
Lexit only really works if we get a truely progressive government here for long enough to establish partnerships and policies to make the world work more for people not corporations and not a race to the bottom tearing up environmental regulations etc which is a distinct possibility imho.
So as usual stuck between a rock and a hard place.....would you still vote Lexit?......interested regardless of your sporting allegiances! | |
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