| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' 08:39 - Jul 25 with 53256 views | m14_blue |
Someone used this term on another thread and it really resonated with me.
It's always fascinated and mystified me how 'normal' Germans allowed the Nazis to perpetrate such evil but the exact same phenomenon is happening in the West at the moment, with 'the left' the new bogeyman.
Now, I'm not saying this will end the same way but the modus operandi is identical. They have control of the overwhelming majority of the printed media and have launched a relentless, vicious assault on the free press that present a balanced, or left leaning, view (the BBC, Channel 4, CNN etc).
You can see the evidence on this very site. There have always been a few far right English Nationalists but there are many who would consider themselves (and I would previously to have considered) to be normal people, decent people, who have been poisoned. They now spout nothing but hatred and bile, throwing around phrases such as 'Enemy of the people', 'traitor', 'treason' whilst being totally unable to explain why.
I challenge anyone to read the below text and deny the parallels. Scary times.
'Men like me were the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemöller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing; and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something–but then it was too late."
One doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?–Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.
You speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’
And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, the believers intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.
And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jewish swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in–your nation, your people–is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed.'
It's time for the liberal (small L) majority in this great country to unite and speak out against the rise of the right. We must not be cowed into silent compliance or things will continue to deteriorate until it is too late. [Post edited 25 Jul 2019 8:43]
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:30 - Aug 5 with 1696 views | SpruceMoose |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:29 - Aug 5 by J2BLUE |
Seems the lesser of two evils when the alternative is siding with you and Spruce. |
Point of order, you were never invited to side with us. We don't need the heat that comes from associating with your sort of flip flopping ne'er-do-well. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:33 - Aug 5 with 1687 views | J2BLUE |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:30 - Aug 5 by SpruceMoose |
Point of order, you were never invited to side with us. We don't need the heat that comes from associating with your sort of flip flopping ne'er-do-well. |
Thank fook. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:33 - Aug 5 with 1687 views | eireblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:04 - Aug 5 by 26_Paz |
I sensed sarcasm, perhaps where there was none, apologies.
Questions in order:
No democratic decision has been changed by Boris becoming PM, GEs are for parties not leaders.
Obviously people's livelihoods, which I genuinely believe will be greatly enhanced by Brexit.
I don't fear it but I do think not leaving would be a huge missed opportunity. I fear for what it would do to confidence in the democratic process in this country if not followed through. |
Is it more the case that you elect a government to deliver on its manifesto commitments.
If the government decides to do something else, because a new leader wants to do things differently, then that would be somewhat un-democratic, surely? |  | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:34 - Aug 5 with 1682 views | SpruceMoose |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:33 - Aug 5 by J2BLUE |
Thank fook. |
"Thank fook nobody wants to hang out with me" is a weird thing to proclaim! | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:39 - Aug 5 with 1665 views | J2BLUE |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:34 - Aug 5 by SpruceMoose |
"Thank fook nobody wants to hang out with me" is a weird thing to proclaim! |
Some people do. You know, other conservative nut jobs who get everything wrong and need to be wiped off the face of the earth so you liberal progressive types can live in perfect harmony. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:45 - Aug 5 with 1647 views | SpruceMoose |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:39 - Aug 5 by J2BLUE |
Some people do. You know, other conservative nut jobs who get everything wrong and need to be wiped off the face of the earth so you liberal progressive types can live in perfect harmony. |
That's some pure Young Benters nonsense there! The disease is progressing faster than first feared! | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:46 - Aug 5 with 1648 views | tabletopjoe |
It's the usual propaganda game. You present yourself as 'moderate', 'centre', and opinions you don't like as 'extreme'. I'd be surprised if you could actually define 'Fascist', which was a term popularised by the hard left because the Nazi's had the word 'Socialist' in the name of their party, which was very awkward for them. |  |
| 'Let the ignorant argue with themselves' -- CL |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:46 - Aug 5 with 1645 views | 26_Paz |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:33 - Aug 5 by eireblue |
Is it more the case that you elect a government to deliver on its manifesto commitments.
If the government decides to do something else, because a new leader wants to do things differently, then that would be somewhat un-democratic, surely? |
I think you'll find leaving the EU very much a manifesto commitment. Next. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:47 - Aug 5 with 1642 views | J2BLUE |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:45 - Aug 5 by SpruceMoose |
That's some pure Young Benters nonsense there! The disease is progressing faster than first feared! |
:D
I'm off to Sainsburys #livingthedream | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:48 - Aug 5 with 1639 views | SpruceMoose |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:47 - Aug 5 by J2BLUE |
:D
I'm off to Sainsburys #livingthedream |
I'd kill for a scotch egg. FedEx me one please. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:50 - Aug 5 with 1635 views | DanTheMan |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:46 - Aug 5 by tabletopjoe |
It's the usual propaganda game. You present yourself as 'moderate', 'centre', and opinions you don't like as 'extreme'. I'd be surprised if you could actually define 'Fascist', which was a term popularised by the hard left because the Nazi's had the word 'Socialist' in the name of their party, which was very awkward for them. |
"which was a term popularised by the hard left because the Nazi's had the word 'Socialist' in the name of their party, which was very awkward for them."
That's just not true. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:53 - Aug 5 with 1624 views | eireblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:46 - Aug 5 by 26_Paz |
I think you'll find leaving the EU very much a manifesto commitment. Next. |
It was the basic principle I was interested in.
You haven’t really confirmed that principle. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:54 - Aug 5 with 1623 views | SpruceMoose |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:50 - Aug 5 by DanTheMan |
"which was a term popularised by the hard left because the Nazi's had the word 'Socialist' in the name of their party, which was very awkward for them."
That's just not true. |
TabletopJoe needs to get some books on his table and do some good ole fashioned readin'! | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:55 - Aug 5 with 1621 views | footers |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:50 - Aug 5 by DanTheMan |
"which was a term popularised by the hard left because the Nazi's had the word 'Socialist' in the name of their party, which was very awkward for them."
That's just not true. |
No, no, no. You've got this all wrong. If Mr Tabletop believes it, then it's definitely true. That's how it works now. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:55 - Aug 5 with 1616 views | 26_Paz |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:53 - Aug 5 by eireblue |
It was the basic principle I was interested in.
You haven’t really confirmed that principle. |
Yes it would be. You were clearly implying that Boris had done something like that. If you weren't thinking about Brexit what were you thinking about? | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:56 - Aug 5 with 1614 views | Herbivore |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:46 - Aug 5 by tabletopjoe |
It's the usual propaganda game. You present yourself as 'moderate', 'centre', and opinions you don't like as 'extreme'. I'd be surprised if you could actually define 'Fascist', which was a term popularised by the hard left because the Nazi's had the word 'Socialist' in the name of their party, which was very awkward for them. |
This is a horribly inaccurate post. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:59 - Aug 5 with 1603 views | SpruceMoose |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:56 - Aug 5 by Herbivore |
This is a horribly inaccurate post. |
He probably doesn't know much about Italy (or anything), to be fair. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 16:11 - Aug 5 with 1578 views | eireblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:55 - Aug 5 by 26_Paz |
Yes it would be. You were clearly implying that Boris had done something like that. If you weren't thinking about Brexit what were you thinking about? |
No, that was an inference you made.
“We will continue with the fiscal rules announced by the chancellor in the autumn statement last year, which will guide us to a balanced budget by the middle of the next decade.”
The Brexit debate in terms of manifesto commitment will always centre around the phrase “no deal is better, than a bad deal”.
Boris voted for TM’s deal.
I have seen no actual way to determine what is a bad deal, compared to the result of any other deal.
However, since only a small minority of people in the HoC want a no-deal, and majority of economists, businesses and politicians are of the view that leaving without a deal is a worse outcome, you could argue it is un-democratic, since it does not really honour the manifesto commitment. | | | |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 16:18 - Aug 5 with 1570 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:04 - Aug 5 by 26_Paz |
I sensed sarcasm, perhaps where there was none, apologies.
Questions in order:
No democratic decision has been changed by Boris becoming PM, GEs are for parties not leaders.
Obviously people's livelihoods, which I genuinely believe will be greatly enhanced by Brexit.
I don't fear it but I do think not leaving would be a huge missed opportunity. I fear for what it would do to confidence in the democratic process in this country if not followed through. |
Sorry, not been on since you replied.
The issue isn't about which democratic decisions have changed by him becoming PM, but rather that now that decision has been made, would it be undemocratic to change it (i.e. him no longer to be leader) if the same people chose to change it? Of course, you know the answer. It would not be. So why would another referendum with more information voting on what type of leave we do or don't do be undemocratic? Clue: the answer is it wouldn't be.
What evidence (in the face of all experts and the views of the majority of those who support leaving) would Brexit greatly enhance people's livelihoods? Give me one example of someone whose livelihood will be improved aside from if they work in customs and excise.
How much confidence is there in our democratic process currently? The electorate has been so easily manipulated and the FPTP system is wobbling. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 16:21 - Aug 5 with 1563 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:46 - Aug 5 by 26_Paz |
I think you'll find leaving the EU very much a manifesto commitment. Next. |
Was that leaving with no deal?
Was it in the DUP manifesto? | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 17:04 - Aug 5 with 1533 views | Mullet |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 16:21 - Aug 5 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Was that leaving with no deal?
Was it in the DUP manifesto? |
They were too busy counting their bribe I reckon. |  |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 17:16 - Aug 5 with 1519 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 15:46 - Aug 5 by tabletopjoe |
It's the usual propaganda game. You present yourself as 'moderate', 'centre', and opinions you don't like as 'extreme'. I'd be surprised if you could actually define 'Fascist', which was a term popularised by the hard left because the Nazi's had the word 'Socialist' in the name of their party, which was very awkward for them. |
Here is a reliable definition and the origin of the term. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism#note-1 Please do share where you got your information from. It will make a good exercise in what makes a reliable source. | |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 17:43 - Aug 5 with 1496 views | tabletopjoe |
That goes no further than totalitarianism. It also describes Communism. | |
| 'Let the ignorant argue with themselves' -- CL |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 17:44 - Aug 5 with 1493 views | SpruceMoose |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 17:43 - Aug 5 by tabletopjoe |
That goes no further than totalitarianism. It also describes Communism. |
Oooh I do love a good double down.
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 17:52 - Aug 5 with 1483 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| 'Sleepwalking into Fascism' on 17:43 - Aug 5 by tabletopjoe |
That goes no further than totalitarianism. It also describes Communism. |
No, it does not.
Try arguing with Collins, Chambers, Oxford University and Miriam Webster that their definitions are wrong. They are all clearly and uniquely defined and fascism most certainly does not describe communism.
Totalitarianism is not specifically right wing which fascism is. However, yes fascism is itself totalitarian in its outlook.
Again, where did your definition and origins of the phrase come from? Please do tell. | |
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