| Current Brexit polling 08:18 - Sep 10 with 11627 views | itfc_bucks |
So it seems that remain actually has a clear, if small, margin over leave now and its been consistent for quite some time now.
How on earth can it be undemocratic to have a final say on the deal/no deal vs remain?
There simply cannot be any argument against it now, can there? Nobody can claim they knew *how* Brexit would be enacted and the likely consequences. Now we know and should be allowed to have a say on that.
Surely? |  | | |  |
| Current Brexit polling on 12:03 - Sep 10 with 4129 views | tabletopjoe |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:36 - Sep 10 by StokieBlue |
Facts without context aren't really useful though are they and you've totally ignored context.
If you don't think a GE is coming just go read the points from JC's speech today - that's the clearest manifesto launch you'll ever see. Boris has also been doing the same the last week.
SB |
Well it's good you're not now denying that the Lib Dems voted against a general election last night. That's a step forward. |  |
| 'Let the ignorant argue with themselves' -- CL |
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| Current Brexit polling on 12:05 - Sep 10 with 4121 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:24 - Sep 10 by Swansea_Blue |
Amazing that this still needs to be said. Anyone feel like they're stuck in a temporal loop? |
Think we need to ask why the last referendum resulted in a vote to leave. Those who say people didn't know what they were voting for have closed minds. Referendums, like elections, are lost as much as won.
When the likes of Osborne and Cameron made wildly exaggerated statements about what would happen in the days and weeks after a leave vote people could see through the panic. Trouble is what happens then is reasonably true predictions also get dismissed.
It was clear what people were voting for the choice was leave or remain. People voted reliant on politicians accepting the will of the majority. The current turmoil stems from the fact two thirds of constituencies voted leave while two thirds of those elected to represent us are in favour of remain.
When A50 was submitted signalling intention to leave, no later than two years hence, it was passed by Parliament with an overwhelmingly majority in the knowledge that this meant leave deal or no deal. Both major parties then campaigned on a manifesto to honour the result of the referendum.
I voted remain, primarily because I couldn't see the EU being anything but obstructive..
Politicians, on both sides, are living in a different world to the rest of us. Look at yesterday and the way MPs were telling the Speaker he was a good guy and how in return he praised MPs.
The sooner we hold an election, and leave the EU the better it will be. We can then get back to sorting out the injustices in the country.
We will still of course have the difficult task of securing a fair and reasonable trade deal. Had we left in March we would be in a better place today than we find ourselves. |  |
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| Current Brexit polling on 12:07 - Sep 10 with 4116 views | lowhouseblue |
| Current Brexit polling on 12:02 - Sep 10 by goperryrevs |
'best terms'.
Not 'no terms'.
There is no mandate for no-deal. |
do you not remember may's mantra that no deal would be better than a bad deal which she repeated ad nauseam for the 12 months before the 2017 election which she then won?
but i agree, no deal would not be a good outcome. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Current Brexit polling on 12:18 - Sep 10 with 4099 views | goperryrevs |
| Current Brexit polling on 12:07 - Sep 10 by lowhouseblue |
do you not remember may's mantra that no deal would be better than a bad deal which she repeated ad nauseam for the 12 months before the 2017 election which she then won?
but i agree, no deal would not be a good outcome. |
"Won" is generous. Do you not remember that she called that snap election to establish a proper majority to give her a mandate to carry through her plans?
She lost that majority spectacularly, and that she required the subsequent shaky alliance with the DUP is evidence that the mandate she desired wasn't forthcoming. She had the opportunity then to change tack, and didn't. We're where we are now as the result of that.
Don't get me wrong, if Boris strides to victory in the forthcoming election with a big enough majority, he'll have that mandate to take us out without a deal. But he doesn't have it now. And if that happens, then the British public are even stupider than I thought. [Post edited 10 Sep 2019 12:18]
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| Current Brexit polling on 12:47 - Sep 10 with 4046 views | flimflam |
| Current Brexit polling on 10:15 - Sep 10 by Darth_Koont |
You're right.
On a serious note, how do you think your boys will do in an election? And will there be an electoral pact with the Conservatives? |
If NF and BJ work together they are predicted to get 350 - 360 seats and a big majority.
Then it would be back to the job in hand. |  |
| All men and women are created, by the, you know the, you know the thing. |
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| Current Brexit polling on 13:03 - Sep 10 with 4018 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Current Brexit polling on 12:47 - Sep 10 by flimflam |
If NF and BJ work together they are predicted to get 350 - 360 seats and a big majority.
Then it would be back to the job in hand. |
Can you tell us which medication you are taking so we can ask our doctors to prescribe the same 'happy' pills. | |
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| Current Brexit polling on 13:17 - Sep 10 with 4005 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Current Brexit polling on 10:36 - Sep 10 by Ftnfwest |
I think a large number of originally leave voters wouldn't bother voting again thus reversing the decision anyway. What appetite would there be from their perspective for a vote where if you vote leave it won't happen anyway or if you vote remain you accept this referendum and remain but ignore the first one? A general election has to happen instead really, either allowing the opposition parties to revoke A50 (or whatever JC wants to do, i lose track) or the conservatives to get on with it. |
Why is it so difficult to grasp for so many that a second referendum would be hugely different from the first? |  |
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| Current Brexit polling on 13:18 - Sep 10 with 3987 views | flimflam |
| Current Brexit polling on 13:17 - Sep 10 by BrixtonBlue |
Why is it so difficult to grasp for so many that a second referendum would be hugely different from the first? |
would or wouldnt? | |
| All men and women are created, by the, you know the, you know the thing. |
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| Current Brexit polling on 13:31 - Sep 10 with 3968 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Current Brexit polling on 13:18 - Sep 10 by flimflam |
would or wouldnt? |
Would.
I'm not talking about the result BTW. | |
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| Current Brexit polling on 13:34 - Sep 10 with 3957 views | flimflam |
| Current Brexit polling on 13:03 - Sep 10 by Pinewoodblue |
Can you tell us which medication you are taking so we can ask our doctors to prescribe the same 'happy' pills. |
Source = The Guardian from 2 days ago or is that too right wing for you?
Their words not mine. The only way they will lose is if the Remain parties sort themselves out and vote tactically but even then it will still be close.
BJ is rising in the polls even after the car crash of the last 2 weeks. Its not all decided on this forum which is heavily remain orientated. [Post edited 10 Sep 2019 13:36]
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| All men and women are created, by the, you know the, you know the thing. |
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| Current Brexit polling on 14:30 - Sep 10 with 3917 views | Ftnfwest |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:29 - Sep 10 by goperryrevs |
No-one ignored the first referendum. Brexit has dominated our political process for the past two years now, at the expense of everything else.
It's the arrogance of hard Brexiteers blocking May's WA, the incompetence of the Conservative government from beginning to now, the lack of any cross-party negotiation that has brought us where we are.
A second referendum was suggested by Farage et al, from before the results of the first one even came in. As was a Norway-style solution. No-deal was off the table from everyone's point of view (for or against). If the Conservative Government had gone for a Norway-style Brexit, then it would have been an acceptable outcome for the majority of the population (on both sides), and for Parliament, and we'd be out of the EU by now. But May had her "red lines". Norway-style Brexit would have been a compromise for the 52% and 48% that would have taken both views into account.
Brexiteers have scuppered Brexit as much as Remainers have. Remainers have good reason (Brexit is a stupid idea in the first place). Hard Brexiteers, not so much. But the result is that either a clear mandate from a General Election (once, quite reasonably, Parliament does its best to stop no-deal happening), or failing that, a new referendum, is the only logical way forward. |
I didn't say anyone had ignored the first referendum, only that it would be ignored after a second.
I agree with most of what you say but the problem has always been that you can't put anything more complex a decision than a straight yes/no into a referendum. You can't expect Joe public to vote on the contents of a 500 page 'deal' when most MP's haven't read it, or indeed any other complex arrangements.
If a GE returns a party or coalition who's manifesto explicitly says they will revoke A50 then fine, you can't go on for ever with referendums, as you quite rightly say, Farage as already said he'd probably challenge such a scenario. |  | | |
| Current Brexit polling on 14:56 - Sep 10 with 3897 views | Ftnfwest |
| Current Brexit polling on 13:17 - Sep 10 by BrixtonBlue |
Why is it so difficult to grasp for so many that a second referendum would be hugely different from the first? |
Not a second referendum then but a totally different one? You can really only ask the public to answer the yes/no question. | | | |
| Current Brexit polling on 15:00 - Sep 10 with 3885 views | lowhouseblue |
| Current Brexit polling on 14:56 - Sep 10 by Ftnfwest |
Not a second referendum then but a totally different one? You can really only ask the public to answer the yes/no question. |
the 2nd referendum could be set up like the family therapy episode of the simpsons - if you put a cross against leave you get an electric shock. that would educate people ready for the 3rd referendum. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Current Brexit polling on 15:34 - Sep 10 with 3857 views | Ftnfwest |
| Current Brexit polling on 15:00 - Sep 10 by lowhouseblue |
the 2nd referendum could be set up like the family therapy episode of the simpsons - if you put a cross against leave you get an electric shock. that would educate people ready for the 3rd referendum. |
'the third referendum' is starting to sound like a sci-fi novel! | | | |
| Current Brexit polling on 16:03 - Sep 10 with 3831 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Current Brexit polling on 13:34 - Sep 10 by flimflam |
Source = The Guardian from 2 days ago or is that too right wing for you?
Their words not mine. The only way they will lose is if the Remain parties sort themselves out and vote tactically but even then it will still be close.
BJ is rising in the polls even after the car crash of the last 2 weeks. Its not all decided on this forum which is heavily remain orientated. [Post edited 10 Sep 2019 13:36]
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No ‘if’ about it. The remain parties have already demonstrated a willingness to work together. |  |
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| Current Brexit polling on 16:05 - Sep 10 with 3828 views | StokieBlue |
| Current Brexit polling on 12:47 - Sep 10 by flimflam |
If NF and BJ work together they are predicted to get 350 - 360 seats and a big majority.
Then it would be back to the job in hand. |
Do you have that prediction somewhere?
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Current Brexit polling on 16:25 - Sep 10 with 3807 views | jaykay |
| Current Brexit polling on 11:17 - Sep 10 by GeoffSentence |
It certainly is.
The referendum was for an absract idea, 'should we leave the EU', now we have some details about what that actually means it is entirely reasonable to ask the question again. |
trouble was major and blair did give them detail on the big sticking point on the back stop.
but the leavers were told dont listen to experts by gove etc. now the leavers say we never saw all this coming, but when they are told you were but wouldnt listen. so the more educated of the leavers tell the uneducated leavers ,see they are calling you thick etc. so its the remainers fault again. |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| Current Brexit polling on 16:29 - Sep 10 with 3797 views | StokieBlue |
I saw that article earlier and nowhere does it say that Boris could get 360+ seats with a pact with Farage.
In fact it says the opposite:
"said private polling done on behalf of Downing Street and revealed to special advisers had suggested the Conservatives would end up with 295 to 300 seats, well short of the 326 required for a majority."
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Current Brexit polling on 16:31 - Sep 10 with 3788 views | flimflam |
| Current Brexit polling on 16:29 - Sep 10 by StokieBlue |
I saw that article earlier and nowhere does it say that Boris could get 360+ seats with a pact with Farage.
In fact it says the opposite:
"said private polling done on behalf of Downing Street and revealed to special advisers had suggested the Conservatives would end up with 295 to 300 seats, well short of the 326 required for a majority."
SB |
Posted correct link now.
Polls are pretty useless anyway but shows that this is not going to be easy for the remain parties to win. | |
| All men and women are created, by the, you know the, you know the thing. |
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| Current Brexit polling on 16:33 - Sep 10 with 3784 views | StokieBlue |
| Current Brexit polling on 16:31 - Sep 10 by flimflam |
Posted correct link now.
Polls are pretty useless anyway but shows that this is not going to be easy for the remain parties to win. |
Thanks for the updated link.
"But if the Brexit party is no longer a threat in the Conservatives’ target seats, it is quite possible to see the Tories winning 350 or 360 seats, in the absence of tactical voting."
Given that bit you decided not to mention the numbers are totally pointless. It's likely there will be tactical voting. It's also a guess - there is no polling behind the numbers you've cited in the article.
I don't think it will be easy for any party to get a majority.
SB [Post edited 10 Sep 2019 16:34]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Current Brexit polling on 16:36 - Sep 10 with 3782 views | sotd78 |
| Current Brexit polling on 12:05 - Sep 10 by Pinewoodblue |
Think we need to ask why the last referendum resulted in a vote to leave. Those who say people didn't know what they were voting for have closed minds. Referendums, like elections, are lost as much as won.
When the likes of Osborne and Cameron made wildly exaggerated statements about what would happen in the days and weeks after a leave vote people could see through the panic. Trouble is what happens then is reasonably true predictions also get dismissed.
It was clear what people were voting for the choice was leave or remain. People voted reliant on politicians accepting the will of the majority. The current turmoil stems from the fact two thirds of constituencies voted leave while two thirds of those elected to represent us are in favour of remain.
When A50 was submitted signalling intention to leave, no later than two years hence, it was passed by Parliament with an overwhelmingly majority in the knowledge that this meant leave deal or no deal. Both major parties then campaigned on a manifesto to honour the result of the referendum.
I voted remain, primarily because I couldn't see the EU being anything but obstructive..
Politicians, on both sides, are living in a different world to the rest of us. Look at yesterday and the way MPs were telling the Speaker he was a good guy and how in return he praised MPs.
The sooner we hold an election, and leave the EU the better it will be. We can then get back to sorting out the injustices in the country.
We will still of course have the difficult task of securing a fair and reasonable trade deal. Had we left in March we would be in a better place today than we find ourselves. |
I have met at least three people who sll said "I voted leave because I could then stop all the immigrants coming in". When asked which immigrants they replied - you know all those from Africa, India, Hong Kong etc.
Now tell me people really understood what the referendum was all about? |  |
| Blue shirts/white shorts - sotd78 |
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| Current Brexit polling on 16:47 - Sep 10 with 3769 views | goperryrevs |
| Current Brexit polling on 14:30 - Sep 10 by Ftnfwest |
I didn't say anyone had ignored the first referendum, only that it would be ignored after a second.
I agree with most of what you say but the problem has always been that you can't put anything more complex a decision than a straight yes/no into a referendum. You can't expect Joe public to vote on the contents of a 500 page 'deal' when most MP's haven't read it, or indeed any other complex arrangements.
If a GE returns a party or coalition who's manifesto explicitly says they will revoke A50 then fine, you can't go on for ever with referendums, as you quite rightly say, Farage as already said he'd probably challenge such a scenario. |
But my point is that overturned does not mean ignored. The original referendum has been anything but ignored.
I fully agree that the referendum should never have happened the way it did in the first place, and they're notoriously bad ways to decide complex issues. However, that decision, followed by numerous crazy decisions by the Conservative government has brought us to this point. There is no easy way forward, but ISTM that Corbyn's Brexit policy is the one that's objectively fairest to everyone (doesn't mean I'll vote for him - I usually vote LD, and am unlikely to change that).
If Farage is saying that now, then he's being his usual disingenuous self, given that a second referendum on the terms of Brexit was something he was directly advocating in the build up to the original referendum.
But, yes, you're right. A clear mandate after a GE would definitely by the best way forward out of this total mess, moreso than another referendum. If that doesn't happen, though, ISTM that a fresh referendum is the only answer. | | | |
| Current Brexit polling on 16:48 - Sep 10 with 3765 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Current Brexit polling on 14:56 - Sep 10 by Ftnfwest |
Not a second referendum then but a totally different one? You can really only ask the public to answer the yes/no question. |
It's not just about what would be asked... but the fact that we know so much more about the potentials now.
I'd say a large majority of those voting leave last time didn't think what it meant any more than just 'leave'. | |
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| Current Brexit polling on 16:55 - Sep 10 with 3750 views | flimflam |
| Current Brexit polling on 16:36 - Sep 10 by sotd78 |
I have met at least three people who sll said "I voted leave because I could then stop all the immigrants coming in". When asked which immigrants they replied - you know all those from Africa, India, Hong Kong etc.
Now tell me people really understood what the referendum was all about? |
When parts of Europe have far better living standards than other parts of Europe then naturally people will want to improve their quality of life, I know I would if in their shoes.
But the recent numbers are unsustainable in the long run and the pressures on housing, schools, nhs and general services is too much which is partly the fault successive governments due to lack of investment.
If the EU had given Cameron the offer of controlling numbers coming in and then putting in place quotas based on skills required at any point in time then 99% of Brexit voters would have accepted that and we would still be in the EU.
Coming into the country from outside the EU has numerous hoops and checks in place for education, job offer, finances etc and it should be the same criteria where ever you are from. If thinking along those lines is racist then I am a racist. | |
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