| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom 16:37 - Nov 19 with 8909 views | hampstead_blue |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50474345
Capped salaries of £350k.
That's just made hundreds of firms leave the UK,.
Will the last person left please turn out the lights...... |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:16 - Nov 20 with 1376 views | mrshallisfit |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:01 - Nov 20 by Herbivore |
Yeah but the wealth creators will be even wealthier, and ultimately that's what really matters apparently. |
Yep. But millions of the people who get screwed over by that system accept it and actually collude with it. I get people being disaffected by 9 years of austerity but championing people like Trump, Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg as their Knight in Shiny Armour seems just perverse and idiotic. |  | | |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:17 - Nov 20 with 1373 views | hampstead_blue |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:11 - Nov 20 by footers |
Many CEOs who take home such massive pay packets and bonuses are actually doing quite badly at running their own businesses, which is bad for the market. Martin Sorrell was pocketing ever-larger paycheques at a time when WPP were performing at their worst, for example. John Varley is another. Surely it's better that the money goes back into the business and true 'wealth-generation' than his pockets. What use is it there? |
I agree that failure often gets overlooked.
CEO's should have more longer term metrics applied to bonus payments. It's been way to 'short' for too long.
I'd like to see social value metrics included.
We are doing some work for a japanese car manufacturer. They want to improve the way the employees see the company.
It's amazing when you talk to the senior UK team just how focuses they are on their employees. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:18 - Nov 20 with 1366 views | footers |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:14 - Nov 20 by BrixtonBlue |
Have you read the thread? You've been utterly ripped a new one. Try reading and taking onboard what people are saying to you. |
Trying to argue with someone who doesn't understand that academic books can also be biased may be a waste of your time, old bean. |  |
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:19 - Nov 20 with 1362 views | tractordownsouth |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 17:25 - Nov 19 by Herbivore |
Why will capping public sector executives' pay at £350k a year lead to loads of private companies leaving the UK? |
Nah there's nothing to worry about, we can give them £350m a week instead |  |
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:20 - Nov 20 with 1360 views | tractordownsouth |
Also Hampstead, you do understand what race to the bottom means? Literally the opposite of this policy | |
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:20 - Nov 20 with 1358 views | footers |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:17 - Nov 20 by hampstead_blue |
I agree that failure often gets overlooked.
CEO's should have more longer term metrics applied to bonus payments. It's been way to 'short' for too long.
I'd like to see social value metrics included.
We are doing some work for a japanese car manufacturer. They want to improve the way the employees see the company.
It's amazing when you talk to the senior UK team just how focuses they are on their employees. |
So maybe we could say that the state should intervene when pay/bonuses are not commensurate with fiscal/social performance? It's a pro-capitalist measure. | |
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:24 - Nov 20 with 1342 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 12:56 - Nov 20 by Herbivore |
Many public organisations have budgets in the billions and employ thousands of people. That justifies a fairly hefty salary. I do find it odd that people who think that private sector directors should be able to earn whatever they like with no restriction but public sector chiefs should earn significantly less for running comparable sized organisations and usually organisations that are much more important in most people's everyday lives. How do you square that circle? |
The free market...if they are worth more they can move for higher pay in the private sector. | | | |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:30 - Nov 20 with 1326 views | haynes_toe1 |
Whilst the OP has done a great job of not reading his own linked article....I do agree with the general premise that there is a whole 'punish the rich' agenda from some, which to a degree is misplaced.
There's been some sarcy posts by Herbivore about the left being more intelligent than the right - equally these billionaire business owners on the right seem to prove that intelligence exists on both.
Regardless, accusing all these 'rich' people of being selfish, greedy money-obsessed people kind of ignores things like how they help the economy, how they create thousands of jobs etc etc.
I'm surprised this forum seems to be full of extreme-left and extreme-right with very little sensible debate from either. | | | |
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:33 - Nov 20 with 1319 views | Herbivore |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:24 - Nov 20 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
The free market...if they are worth more they can move for higher pay in the private sector. |
But then people complain when public services aren't well run and if the best people can earn ten times what they earn in the public sector by going over to the private sector then you end up with a drain on talent, which inevitably leads to poorer services. You can't have it always.
Why is it though that our society values profit over people performing public good? That's a sad indictment of our society. |  |
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:48 - Nov 20 with 1298 views | Herbivore |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:30 - Nov 20 by haynes_toe1 |
Whilst the OP has done a great job of not reading his own linked article....I do agree with the general premise that there is a whole 'punish the rich' agenda from some, which to a degree is misplaced.
There's been some sarcy posts by Herbivore about the left being more intelligent than the right - equally these billionaire business owners on the right seem to prove that intelligence exists on both.
Regardless, accusing all these 'rich' people of being selfish, greedy money-obsessed people kind of ignores things like how they help the economy, how they create thousands of jobs etc etc.
I'm surprised this forum seems to be full of extreme-left and extreme-right with very little sensible debate from either. |
My post wasn't sarcy, it's simply true. That's not to say there aren't intelligent people on the right too. You do make quite a few assumptions in that post, I don't think you would be right in assuming that all wealthy business owners are right wing (or particularly intelligent as it goes).
As for the notion of punishing the rich, that's pure spin and not remotely connected to reality. Who is proposing the rich are punished as opposed to simply ensuring they pay a reasonable share and act more ethically? That's hardly punishment, that's just good sense within a just society. | |
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:51 - Nov 20 with 1289 views | GaryCooper |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:48 - Nov 20 by Herbivore |
My post wasn't sarcy, it's simply true. That's not to say there aren't intelligent people on the right too. You do make quite a few assumptions in that post, I don't think you would be right in assuming that all wealthy business owners are right wing (or particularly intelligent as it goes).
As for the notion of punishing the rich, that's pure spin and not remotely connected to reality. Who is proposing the rich are punished as opposed to simply ensuring they pay a reasonable share and act more ethically? That's hardly punishment, that's just good sense within a just society. |
Care to define a reasonable share? Why do percentage rates increase as people earn more, surely percentages in themselves take care of increased payments? |  | | |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 14:03 - Nov 20 with 1274 views | Herbivore |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:51 - Nov 20 by GaryCooper |
Care to define a reasonable share? Why do percentage rates increase as people earn more, surely percentages in themselves take care of increased payments? |
A reasonable share would be an amount commensurate to the proportion of wealth they control. Why are you struggling to understand why percentage rates increase as income increases? Progressive taxation is easy enough to understand. If you're genuinely struggling with it, though, then perhaps do some reading around the subject to help you grasp it. | |
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 14:10 - Nov 20 with 1259 views | monytowbray |
I’ll take a capped salary of £350k. Shows the delusion of posters on here, I’d be amazed if anyone on here earns close to that. Most of society certainly doesn’t.
Utter delusion and half baked facts from the OPer. READ BEFORE YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH. |  |
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 14:15 - Nov 20 with 1251 views | hampstead_blue |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:48 - Nov 20 by Herbivore |
My post wasn't sarcy, it's simply true. That's not to say there aren't intelligent people on the right too. You do make quite a few assumptions in that post, I don't think you would be right in assuming that all wealthy business owners are right wing (or particularly intelligent as it goes).
As for the notion of punishing the rich, that's pure spin and not remotely connected to reality. Who is proposing the rich are punished as opposed to simply ensuring they pay a reasonable share and act more ethically? That's hardly punishment, that's just good sense within a just society. |
Hang-on Herbie, rich people do pay the highest rates of tax. That's a fact. The fact that they also use means, majority of which the revenue do not close, to employ tax advisers.
What's wrong with that?
Also they assumption that the wealthy act unethically?
Come on this is silly.
Whilst my OP was focused on just a few aspects of the article, hence the nudge which is cool, I think you're out there.
When JM speaks about wealth his eyes narrow and there is a real edge to his tone. He hates the rich. Why?
If it were not for super wealthy entrepreneurs then pretty much nothing would get done.
Elon Musk
Branson
Bezos - don't knock him, Amazon support veterans. Ok they do kick the backside out of a lot of things, but they create wealth.
Jobs
Cauldwell
All of the above have done huge amounts for society. Not just a few, but for millions.
Punish this type of person and they will flee to find love elsewhere.
There are always exceptions but your lot are nailed-on for punishing the wealthy | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
| |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 14:18 - Nov 20 with 1245 views | hampstead_blue |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 13:20 - Nov 20 by footers |
So maybe we could say that the state should intervene when pay/bonuses are not commensurate with fiscal/social performance? It's a pro-capitalist measure. |
Not sure about the state.
Maybe regulate CSR and sustainability. Light touch. Give them chance to adopt a more socially aware culture.
I don't feel an iron fist is the right idea.
Little and often? The easiest way to complete a long tab. One step at a time.
One benefit of JC and BJ is that we now see what the extreme look like. I don't like it, either side. Hopefully we can all survive and get back to more sensible politics. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
| |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 14:23 - Nov 20 with 1238 views | SomethingBlue |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 14:15 - Nov 20 by hampstead_blue |
Hang-on Herbie, rich people do pay the highest rates of tax. That's a fact. The fact that they also use means, majority of which the revenue do not close, to employ tax advisers.
What's wrong with that?
Also they assumption that the wealthy act unethically?
Come on this is silly.
Whilst my OP was focused on just a few aspects of the article, hence the nudge which is cool, I think you're out there.
When JM speaks about wealth his eyes narrow and there is a real edge to his tone. He hates the rich. Why?
If it were not for super wealthy entrepreneurs then pretty much nothing would get done.
Elon Musk
Branson
Bezos - don't knock him, Amazon support veterans. Ok they do kick the backside out of a lot of things, but they create wealth.
Jobs
Cauldwell
All of the above have done huge amounts for society. Not just a few, but for millions.
Punish this type of person and they will flee to find love elsewhere.
There are always exceptions but your lot are nailed-on for punishing the wealthy |
Lovely if Bezos supports veterans, but there's rather a lot more to the world than that I'm afraid and his rap sheet is vast. | |
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 14:23 - Nov 20 with 1235 views | Herbivore |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 14:15 - Nov 20 by hampstead_blue |
Hang-on Herbie, rich people do pay the highest rates of tax. That's a fact. The fact that they also use means, majority of which the revenue do not close, to employ tax advisers.
What's wrong with that?
Also they assumption that the wealthy act unethically?
Come on this is silly.
Whilst my OP was focused on just a few aspects of the article, hence the nudge which is cool, I think you're out there.
When JM speaks about wealth his eyes narrow and there is a real edge to his tone. He hates the rich. Why?
If it were not for super wealthy entrepreneurs then pretty much nothing would get done.
Elon Musk
Branson
Bezos - don't knock him, Amazon support veterans. Ok they do kick the backside out of a lot of things, but they create wealth.
Jobs
Cauldwell
All of the above have done huge amounts for society. Not just a few, but for millions.
Punish this type of person and they will flee to find love elsewhere.
There are always exceptions but your lot are nailed-on for punishing the wealthy |
You continue to spread propaganda and you've shown no contrition for doing so. Until you do that I have no wish to debate with you.
But just one point, you are lauding Bezos who is a multi-billionairre who relies on governments to subsidise his poorly paid staff. He avoids his company paying what would be a common sense fair level of tax. If you want to defend him then good for you, but your moral compass is way off. You say he helps people, if half his wealth was taken off him today you could help millions and millions of people and he'd still be obscenely rich. If defending Bezos is the hill you want to die on then fair enough, it's not like this thread can get much worse for you.
Edit - Curious as to what you mean by 'punishing the rich' as well. Are they going to be thrown in gulags? Or will they pay a bit more tax but still be really, really rich? I suspect it'll be the latter. [Post edited 20 Nov 2019 14:28]
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 14:23 - Nov 20 with 1233 views | GaryCooper |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 14:03 - Nov 20 by Herbivore |
A reasonable share would be an amount commensurate to the proportion of wealth they control. Why are you struggling to understand why percentage rates increase as income increases? Progressive taxation is easy enough to understand. If you're genuinely struggling with it, though, then perhaps do some reading around the subject to help you grasp it. |
You just can not be civil can you? You are the one who requires a little education. | | | |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 14:25 - Nov 20 with 1226 views | Herbivore |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 14:23 - Nov 20 by GaryCooper |
You just can not be civil can you? You are the one who requires a little education. |
Ah, you're one of those snowflakes I keep hearing about. If a polite suggestion that you do a bit of reading offends you then you perhaps need a thicker skin. [Post edited 20 Nov 2019 14:28]
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 14:46 - Nov 20 with 1203 views | longtimefan |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 12:51 - Nov 20 by CoachRob |
"I've just finished a rather lengthy audiobook by the Great Courses - Capitalism v Socialism. I'd recommend anyone who support socialism listens to it. It's academic so not written by a journo or bias."
This shows you believe an economics professor to speak factually, economics is not a science and as someone who claims to have a masters from a business school you should know the biases that exist. |
I don't think anyone who reads this forum could be in doubt that biases exist! It's mainly populated by people who seem incredibly polarized in their view . Even when presented with any reasoned points they will dismiss them and apportion truth to only one side. It applies to both left and right views. There seem to be few who are interested in taking on points from both sides, most notable exceptions Guthrum and StokieBlue. | | | |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 15:36 - Nov 20 with 1171 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 14:15 - Nov 20 by hampstead_blue |
Hang-on Herbie, rich people do pay the highest rates of tax. That's a fact. The fact that they also use means, majority of which the revenue do not close, to employ tax advisers.
What's wrong with that?
Also they assumption that the wealthy act unethically?
Come on this is silly.
Whilst my OP was focused on just a few aspects of the article, hence the nudge which is cool, I think you're out there.
When JM speaks about wealth his eyes narrow and there is a real edge to his tone. He hates the rich. Why?
If it were not for super wealthy entrepreneurs then pretty much nothing would get done.
Elon Musk
Branson
Bezos - don't knock him, Amazon support veterans. Ok they do kick the backside out of a lot of things, but they create wealth.
Jobs
Cauldwell
All of the above have done huge amounts for society. Not just a few, but for millions.
Punish this type of person and they will flee to find love elsewhere.
There are always exceptions but your lot are nailed-on for punishing the wealthy |
It's not a fact at all, it depends how you calculate the rates. Take for example our own esteemed owner. I'm not going t spend hours digging up evidence, so this is a historic example - but in 2007 the ME Group UK-based opperations paid £7,757 tax on a profit of £1.8m. That works out at a tax rate of 0.43%, compared to the 20% that a small, local business would be paying. It might be legal, but it's not moral or fair.
That's what's being talked about. Some people use every loophole going to minimise paying tax. You mention Caudwell - he's spoken out about tax avoidance repeatedly.
The official UK tax gap is about £35bn (some economists think iot could be more than double this) and about £14bn of that is said to be deliberate evasion/avoidance/non-payment, which would be a lovely windfall for public servicesif it was collected: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac
I don't see anything wrong with making sure people pay the tax they are supposed to. None of us on PAYE can get away with it. We're just talking about fairness. |  |
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 15:44 - Nov 20 with 1168 views | CoachRob |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 14:46 - Nov 20 by longtimefan |
I don't think anyone who reads this forum could be in doubt that biases exist! It's mainly populated by people who seem incredibly polarized in their view . Even when presented with any reasoned points they will dismiss them and apportion truth to only one side. It applies to both left and right views. There seem to be few who are interested in taking on points from both sides, most notable exceptions Guthrum and StokieBlue. |
That's a fair point.
My worry is people saying 'x academic must be right because they are an academic and free from bias' - The Royal Society motto is nullius in verba which means take nobody's word for it. Obviously nobody is going to bother checking these things because as you say they are deeply entrenched and want to believe whatever 'proves' their point. |  | | |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 16:05 - Nov 20 with 1160 views | smithy91 |
Finding it very curious that certain regular political posters on here, often who have previously refered to 'scary' predictions about the economy post brexit, seem to be the same people that now champion Corbyns borrow, borrow, borrow some more free everything and punish the people owning top businesses (FTSE etc) policies.
If the former isn't economically sound, the latter certainly isnt [Post edited 20 Nov 2019 16:09]
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| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 16:09 - Nov 20 with 1149 views | GaryCooper |
| Ready, steady, go.....race to the bottom on 16:05 - Nov 20 by smithy91 |
Finding it very curious that certain regular political posters on here, often who have previously refered to 'scary' predictions about the economy post brexit, seem to be the same people that now champion Corbyns borrow, borrow, borrow some more free everything and punish the people owning top businesses (FTSE etc) policies.
If the former isn't economically sound, the latter certainly isnt [Post edited 20 Nov 2019 16:09]
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Hypocritical isn't it? To agree with the CBI, when said group, states business will leave the UK if we leave the EU, then sweep the very similar predictions under the rug when offered as results to a labour government.
Contrary. | | | |
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