| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 11:17 - Apr 15 with 1989 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 17:10 - Apr 14 by tractorshark |
This whole crisis has turned political because everyone wants someone to blame right now.
That’s completely understandable but, rightly or wrongly, people voted for this government and that’s democracy.
I didn’t want Brexit, didn’t vote for it but here we are stuck with it. Should I alienate or chastise those who did? No. It’s their opinion, they are entitled to it. And if more people share that opinion over mine, then so be it.
It’s the same with the General Election.
I am not particularly impressed with the way the government has handled this crisis but we will never know if Corbyn would have done any better - even if he had won in 2017. Personally, I think his last manifesto was so fanciful it was drawn up by the Fairy Godmother. But that’s just my opinion and others here may disagree.
And that’s the problem with this nation at the moment.
We are getting to the stage where if we don’t agree with something or someone, it becomes unequivocally wrong and should therefore be removed, sacked, stopped, burnt, boycotted or banned.
But most of the time it just comes down to a difference of opinion. It’s ok to agree to disagree. You don’t have to subscribe to other people’s views to recognise they exist.
Anything else is just a step towards censorship and dictatorship.
Social media is a massive issue in this crisis right now. It has become a vehicle of hypocrisy, hysteria and hatred, a modern-day witch hunt which often defies logic.
Just look at the panic buying a few weeks ago or the sick comments after the PM went into hospital. Like him or loathe him, the day people think it is acceptable to wish ill on a fellow human being is the day you lose sight of humanity.
So just because you dislike the Tories, don’t tell people whether they should clap the NHS or not. That’s their choice.
By all means question and challenge the government, that’s important. Likewise, don’t just agree with me or anyone else if you feel differently.
But don’t shut down others with sweeping statements or accusations apportioning blame.
Both the Conservatives and Labour have been guilty of under-funding and squandering money in the NHS during the last 20-odd years.
History will judge our leaders but, more importantly, so will the public.
And, ultimately, they will have the power to do something about it.
Maybe they will agree with you, maybe they won’t. But that’s democracy. |
“Both the Conservatives and Labour have been guilty of under-funding and squandering money in the NHS during the last 20-odd years.”
That’s misleading. The last Labour Governments increased funding at rates higher than at any other time in the NHS history. It may or may not have been enough, but it resulted in levels of service responses we could only dream of now.
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 11:43 - Apr 15 with 1962 views | monytowbray |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 11:17 - Apr 15 by Swansea_Blue |
“Both the Conservatives and Labour have been guilty of under-funding and squandering money in the NHS during the last 20-odd years.”
That’s misleading. The last Labour Governments increased funding at rates higher than at any other time in the NHS history. It may or may not have been enough, but it resulted in levels of service responses we could only dream of now.
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It’s always Labour’s fault somehow, be it the version of the party that got voted out 10 years ago that has been drastically different for 5 years now, or the hypothetical world where Jeremy Corbyn won the election. |  |
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 12:44 - Apr 15 with 1941 views | WD19 |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 11:17 - Apr 15 by Swansea_Blue |
“Both the Conservatives and Labour have been guilty of under-funding and squandering money in the NHS during the last 20-odd years.”
That’s misleading. The last Labour Governments increased funding at rates higher than at any other time in the NHS history. It may or may not have been enough, but it resulted in levels of service responses we could only dream of now.
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"The last Labour Governments increased funding at rates higher than at any other time in the NHS history."
That's misleading. The last labour government between 2005-2010 clearly invested less than what had gone before. Less even than the John Major government.
There is a helpful chart that shows this.......
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 13:24 - Apr 15 with 1912 views | monytowbray |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 12:44 - Apr 15 by WD19 |
"The last Labour Governments increased funding at rates higher than at any other time in the NHS history."
That's misleading. The last labour government between 2005-2010 clearly invested less than what had gone before. Less even than the John Major government.
There is a helpful chart that shows this.......
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Not really relevant to the last ten years when they’ve cut it even more whilst removing pay incentives for juniors and put foreigners off coming here to work. | |
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 13:29 - Apr 15 with 1906 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 12:44 - Apr 15 by WD19 |
"The last Labour Governments increased funding at rates higher than at any other time in the NHS history."
That's misleading. The last labour government between 2005-2010 clearly invested less than what had gone before. Less even than the John Major government.
There is a helpful chart that shows this.......
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The largest rates of increases were seen under a Labour Government. Over 10% in one year. Even though they dropped under Brown, the average over his time was still higher than the average over Thatcher, Major, the Coalition, Cameron & May. There’s a helpful chart that shows this:
The claim that Labour underfunded the NHS isn’t correct relative to the support seen by other parties. It’s only one metric of course, and doesn’t necessarily mean the NHS got what they wanted at that time. There are sticks to beat Labour with (e.g PFI) but their annual budgets for the health service isn’t one. | |
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 13:37 - Apr 15 with 1892 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 13:29 - Apr 15 by Swansea_Blue |
The largest rates of increases were seen under a Labour Government. Over 10% in one year. Even though they dropped under Brown, the average over his time was still higher than the average over Thatcher, Major, the Coalition, Cameron & May. There’s a helpful chart that shows this:
The claim that Labour underfunded the NHS isn’t correct relative to the support seen by other parties. It’s only one metric of course, and doesn’t necessarily mean the NHS got what they wanted at that time. There are sticks to beat Labour with (e.g PFI) but their annual budgets for the health service isn’t one. |
I notice that graph conveniently starts in 1979
Prior to 79 there was record investment only matched by record failure. It's no good throwing money at something unless you are competent in spending it.
Whilst I am not an expert in this matter and like most people just offering an opinion on what I have read on the subject I think the NHS is a wasteful cow. |  |
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 13:41 - Apr 15 with 1879 views | monytowbray |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 13:37 - Apr 15 by Lord_Lucan |
I notice that graph conveniently starts in 1979
Prior to 79 there was record investment only matched by record failure. It's no good throwing money at something unless you are competent in spending it.
Whilst I am not an expert in this matter and like most people just offering an opinion on what I have read on the subject I think the NHS is a wasteful cow. |
The NHS has plenty of flaws, I agree. But that doesn't justify underfunding it. Reform I'd be interested in. Cutting it off to the point of it being ineffective and flogging it to Branson isn't a justified approach. | |
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 13:43 - Apr 15 with 1876 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 13:41 - Apr 15 by monytowbray |
The NHS has plenty of flaws, I agree. But that doesn't justify underfunding it. Reform I'd be interested in. Cutting it off to the point of it being ineffective and flogging it to Branson isn't a justified approach. |
Exactly where have I said that it is. | |
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 13:45 - Apr 15 with 1873 views | monytowbray |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 13:43 - Apr 15 by Lord_Lucan |
Exactly where have I said that it is. |
I didn't suggest you did say that, it was just a discussion point following on from your comment. But whenever i post anything civil in your direction you are always frothing at the mouth for confrontation.
You need to lay off the booze and take up smoking weed or something. [Post edited 15 Apr 2020 13:46]
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 14:07 - Apr 15 with 1858 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 13:45 - Apr 15 by monytowbray |
I didn't suggest you did say that, it was just a discussion point following on from your comment. But whenever i post anything civil in your direction you are always frothing at the mouth for confrontation.
You need to lay off the booze and take up smoking weed or something. [Post edited 15 Apr 2020 13:46]
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I don't see where I have frothed at the mouth Callis as I tend not to reply to your posts - or even read them to be honest, and for your information I hardly drink any more. I noticed the other day you were accusing someone else of drinking too much.
May I non frothingly suggest you mind your own business and sort your own life out. | |
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 14:37 - Apr 15 with 1831 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 13:37 - Apr 15 by Lord_Lucan |
I notice that graph conveniently starts in 1979
Prior to 79 there was record investment only matched by record failure. It's no good throwing money at something unless you are competent in spending it.
Whilst I am not an expert in this matter and like most people just offering an opinion on what I have read on the subject I think the NHS is a wasteful cow. |
Sure, agreed. Otherwise known as the Hurst Principle (don’t give fools a free hand with someone else’s money). | |
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 15:06 - Apr 15 with 1814 views | longtimefan |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 13:41 - Apr 15 by monytowbray |
The NHS has plenty of flaws, I agree. But that doesn't justify underfunding it. Reform I'd be interested in. Cutting it off to the point of it being ineffective and flogging it to Branson isn't a justified approach. |
Interestingly I was looking at some historic statistics on the NHS yesterday. Apparently the number of NHS beds fell from 201K to 171K from 1997 under the previous Labour governments and from that down to 141K in the last ten years under the Tory governments. I'd say neither looks particularly good! [Post edited 15 Apr 2020 15:35]
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 15:29 - Apr 15 with 1793 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 15:06 - Apr 15 by longtimefan |
Interestingly I was looking at some historic statistics on the NHS yesterday. Apparently the number of NHS beds fell from 201K to 171K from 1997 under the previous Labour governments and from that down to 141K in the last ten years under the Tory governments. I'd say neither looks particularly good! [Post edited 15 Apr 2020 15:35]
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There are factors in this.
Many operations these days are done as "in and outs", you no longer need an overnight bed due to new technology.
I'm not saying for one minute there is enough beds by the way, there should be many more. People having to queue to get a bed is completely not acceptable. | |
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 15:31 - Apr 15 with 1793 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 15:06 - Apr 15 by longtimefan |
Interestingly I was looking at some historic statistics on the NHS yesterday. Apparently the number of NHS beds fell from 201K to 171K from 1997 under the previous Labour governments and from that down to 141K in the last ten years under the Tory governments. I'd say neither looks particularly good! [Post edited 15 Apr 2020 15:35]
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Review of that here.
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/nhs-hospital-bed-numbers?gclid=Cj0KCQj
And a whole lot more on the review of Labour's record here (p133 for conclusions) - http://sticerd.lse.ac.uk/dps/case/spcc/wp02.pdf
I'd be interested to see a comparable analysis of the last 10 years. Info that's been released on outcomes, waiting times, etc., suggests that it wouldn't be especially favourable but there's a lot of devil in the detail beyond the things that make the headlines. | |
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 15:42 - Apr 15 with 1777 views | longtimefan |
Interesting. Thanks for that. | | | |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 16:12 - Apr 15 with 1761 views | WeWereZombies |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 18:43 - Apr 14 by jeera |
I'm trying to post a video I saw of a health worker exasperated at trying to get himself a test.
He performs respiratory triage testing and has been exposed many times and doesn't want to be spreading the virus to vulnerable patients.
[Post edited 14 Apr 2020 18:47]
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Revealing.
I may be over judgemental here but I am guessing that he is coming up for retirement and not as concerned about a disciplinary as he might otherwise be... |  |
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 16:18 - Apr 15 with 1755 views | jeera |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 16:12 - Apr 15 by WeWereZombies |
Revealing.
I may be over judgemental here but I am guessing that he is coming up for retirement and not as concerned about a disciplinary as he might otherwise be... |
I don't know why the link wouldn't work and gave up trying.
He's in his car in a car park testing facility and the guy there argues that as he's showing no symptoms he can't be tested.
He explains his case several times but the chap's not having it, saying the tests are too expensive to just hand out.
Edit: he showed his id and even a photo of him at work in the hospital.
Google Anthony Mcilwee and it's there as a vid.
[Post edited 15 Apr 2020 16:25]
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 17:03 - Apr 15 with 1723 views | WeWereZombies |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 16:18 - Apr 15 by jeera |
I don't know why the link wouldn't work and gave up trying.
He's in his car in a car park testing facility and the guy there argues that as he's showing no symptoms he can't be tested.
He explains his case several times but the chap's not having it, saying the tests are too expensive to just hand out.
Edit: he showed his id and even a photo of him at work in the hospital.
Google Anthony Mcilwee and it's there as a vid.
[Post edited 15 Apr 2020 16:25]
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The link was working for me, what I am saying is that (especially as his name is out there) he may find himself in trouble for posting his views. All things considered I think he is pretty sanguine about it all, perhaps a grim fatalism that petty decisions by people who are not on the front line can be life and death for those who are. | |
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 17:13 - Apr 15 with 1719 views | jeera |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 17:03 - Apr 15 by WeWereZombies |
The link was working for me, what I am saying is that (especially as his name is out there) he may find himself in trouble for posting his views. All things considered I think he is pretty sanguine about it all, perhaps a grim fatalism that petty decisions by people who are not on the front line can be life and death for those who are. |
Hopefully someone, somewhere will be embarrassed into behaving differently.
If anyone requires testing it's people in his position.
You'd like to think if anyone takes exception with him then others would come out in support. | |
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 15:02 - Apr 16 with 1661 views | tractordownsouth |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 19:17 - Apr 14 by Lord_Lucan |
This is the only sensible post on this whole three pages of absolute sh1te. |
With respect Lucan, surely Badger's view should be respected, as someone who's been on the NHS front line throughout the pandemic and for many years beforehand? |  |
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 15:12 - Apr 16 with 1651 views | tractordownsouth |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 20:47 - Apr 14 by Lord_Lucan |
I take it you are having a pop at me Mullet, although I'm not sure why because I haven't voted Tory since Blair was in charge.
Well there may be a case of successive governments under funding the NHS or it may be that in it's present form it's unsustainable due to the fact that we are growing in population, people are living a whole lot longer and more things are treatable. It may also because it is isn't run properly and there are a mass of managers in relation to ground staff. It may be because of the amount of drunks, druggies and hypochondriacs it has to deal with. It may also be because people like to sue the NHS at the drop of a hat. It may also be none of these things and it is doing ok despite all of the points mentioned because rarely do people say they have had a bad experience - unless some low life wants to sue them of course.
In any case we are where we are and as a non Tory voter I'm sick of people running down the government at every single opportunity they get in this time of absolute global mayhem.
There are some mistakes they have / will make, Cheltenham and Anfield was stupid but I think people who look for and rejoice in failings are sad cases.
You can take that however you want. [Post edited 14 Apr 2020 20:52]
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For most, I don't think it's a case of people rejoicing in their failings, just a frustration. Overall I think Keir Starmer's taken a good position of asking difficult questions to scrutinise the government to try to hurry things along, but not opposing for the sake of it. I think the public should be doing the same really. I can't stand the Tories but I think their financial response has mostly been good and I praise them for it, but on the medical side they've failed.
Of course we were always going to be short because of the scale of the issue but it's things like Matt Hancock standing up in parliament in January saying we're fully prepared and then not placing orders for months, and not joining the EU scheme "because we're an independent country" that are poor. I know the scheme hasn't delivered yet and it's good we're making our own too, but the responsible thing to do would have been to put as many eggs in different baskets as we could. | |
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| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 16:16 - Apr 16 with 1633 views | Mullet |
| Two things NOT to do if you wish to show your support on Thursday on 15:12 - Apr 16 by tractordownsouth |
For most, I don't think it's a case of people rejoicing in their failings, just a frustration. Overall I think Keir Starmer's taken a good position of asking difficult questions to scrutinise the government to try to hurry things along, but not opposing for the sake of it. I think the public should be doing the same really. I can't stand the Tories but I think their financial response has mostly been good and I praise them for it, but on the medical side they've failed.
Of course we were always going to be short because of the scale of the issue but it's things like Matt Hancock standing up in parliament in January saying we're fully prepared and then not placing orders for months, and not joining the EU scheme "because we're an independent country" that are poor. I know the scheme hasn't delivered yet and it's good we're making our own too, but the responsible thing to do would have been to put as many eggs in different baskets as we could. |
I hadn't seen Lucan's reply as this thread seems to have gone the way of cabin fever TWTD, but you're spot on here.
No one expects perfection, but the guilt and political hypocrisy that's like a running sore amongst Tory voters is utterly inexcusable. If the government were doing a good as 60% of people believe where's the evidence for it? Where's the limiting effect of all the measures they've put in place?
I don't think Starmer is doing much different there, other than playing to his audience either. But it is really odd how we keep hearing mixed messages and seeing badges and gimmicks from people like Hancock, who like Boris won't even do as he tells others to do it seems. |  |
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