| Is "following the science" 06:39 - Apr 18 with 7716 views | bluelagos |
an adequate defence to the charges / lost lives that will have occured due to our government's dithering?
We even had football authorities taking the tough decisions before our own politicians.
Or is it really acceptable that they wasted precious time when all around them the evidence was there for a need to act to reduce social contacts?
https://www.newstatesman.com/2020/04/eleven-days-may-have-tragically-cost-uk-fig [Post edited 18 Apr 2020 6:51]
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| Is on 17:34 - Apr 18 with 651 views | Ryorry |
| Is on 17:28 - Apr 18 by longtimefan |
You may not realise this but the CMO Professor Chris Whitty is an epidemiologist! He is also a practising NHS consultant physician at University Hospitals (UCLH) and the Hospital for Tropical Diseases. [Post edited 18 Apr 2020 17:30]
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I'd forgotten that - but he was out of the loop on self-isolation for a long time, at quite an early stage too, wasn't he? |  |
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| Is on 17:39 - Apr 18 with 638 views | StokieBlue |
| Is on 17:28 - Apr 18 by monytowbray |
If you believe these scientists have been driven by either/or...
- freedom to conclude.
- having their actual recommendations implemented without any interference.
...then maybe you are a bit naive.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people you can trust the Tories on anything.
They can’t even be straight on Brexit promises, poverty levels, election interference or a tower block setting fire and killing a few dozen people whilst survivors still await rehoming because they covered the building in flammable padding, allowed big business to rig the safety laws and then blamed THE FIREFIGHTERS.
As I said before, a large chunk of the nation are stuck in an abusive relationship with the Conservatives and have been gaslighted beyond all believe. I hope we can wake up from this nightmare soon.
You’ve got two upvotes from our resident “I don’t vote Tory honestly but who I vote for is none of your business” posters on here anyway so well done. [Post edited 18 Apr 2020 17:34]
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Can you please stop your continued character assassination of me? I've had just about enough of it now.
I didn't vote Tory but that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything you say.
Do you have evidence for your first two conclusions that they weren't free to recommend?
SB |  | | |
| Is "following the science" on 17:40 - Apr 18 with 637 views | tractordownsouth |
| Is "following the science" on 07:25 - Apr 18 by BloomBlue |
How do you know it cost lives?
You cannot base fact on theory, which that article is doing.
You're only way of proving it is turn the clock back and try a different option and compare.
You have to take the advice of science, different Counries will always take different approaches based on the science, neither Sweden or South Korea have done full lockdows, neither did China do a full Country wide lockdown
Nothing like this has happened before, hindsight is a wonderful thing, the important thing is learn from it.
Brown cost lives because he didnt save cash for a rainy day, he should have stockpiled cash incase we had a financial crash which happens every generation, hindsight is a wonderful thing
Plus dont expect any inquiry to do anything, Blair got away with the murder of British soldiers after a lie and not providing them with adequate supplies and his defence was 'I didnt read the report ' which the inquiry accepted as adequate defence
We live in a democracy at the next GE if you dont like the handling of this by the government vote for another party. |
Brown cost lives but austerity didn't? Ok mate |  |
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| Is on 17:41 - Apr 18 with 636 views | bluelagos |
| Is "following the science" on 17:31 - Apr 18 by monytowbray |
Stop sharing expert evidence that isn’t from the Conservative propaganda wing! You’ll get told you’re not being impartial LOLZ. |
Thing is Callis - it is a very very uncomfortable issue. To accept that our own govt has dropped an almighty boll0ck - and that is costing (right now) significant numbers of lives - is very uncomfortable for a lot of people.
Hence why some are in denial, some angry, it's very uncomfortable to accept what is looking to be the case.
I think those questions need to be asked although I would concede now is maybe not the best time. But they will need to be asked and those who are uncomfortable are going to have to get used to it because there is no way the question is going away imho.
And yeah, some will just defend our politicians or criticise them due to party allegiances, but nothing new there.
Edit - have spent far too much time on here the last few days - so that's me for the night. [Post edited 18 Apr 2020 17:42]
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| Is on 17:42 - Apr 18 with 627 views | monytowbray |
| Is on 17:39 - Apr 18 by StokieBlue |
Can you please stop your continued character assassination of me? I've had just about enough of it now.
I didn't vote Tory but that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything you say.
Do you have evidence for your first two conclusions that they weren't free to recommend?
SB |
If you’re bored of my “character assassination” already I dread to think how you’d have dealt with being me and reading your posts in the last 5 years.
I have no evidence, purely speculation from personal experience in the world. |  |
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| Is on 17:44 - Apr 18 with 618 views | monytowbray |
| Is on 17:41 - Apr 18 by bluelagos |
Thing is Callis - it is a very very uncomfortable issue. To accept that our own govt has dropped an almighty boll0ck - and that is costing (right now) significant numbers of lives - is very uncomfortable for a lot of people.
Hence why some are in denial, some angry, it's very uncomfortable to accept what is looking to be the case.
I think those questions need to be asked although I would concede now is maybe not the best time. But they will need to be asked and those who are uncomfortable are going to have to get used to it because there is no way the question is going away imho.
And yeah, some will just defend our politicians or criticise them due to party allegiances, but nothing new there.
Edit - have spent far too much time on here the last few days - so that's me for the night. [Post edited 18 Apr 2020 17:42]
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Imagine how I feel, I was flagging this weeks ago and was called every name under the sun whilst watching people find a new crutch to lean on with every own goal we’ve scored.
Humour is my unhealthy coping mechanism at this point. | |
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| Is on 17:46 - Apr 18 with 608 views | WD19 |
| Is on 17:44 - Apr 18 by monytowbray |
Imagine how I feel, I was flagging this weeks ago and was called every name under the sun whilst watching people find a new crutch to lean on with every own goal we’ve scored.
Humour is my unhealthy coping mechanism at this point. |
It’s almost as if some people’s opinions diverge from yours. Imagine.
They have all been sent to earth specifically to ‘gaslight’ you, obviously. There is no other credible reason for them disagreeing with you from time to time. The bastards. |  | | |
| Is on 17:47 - Apr 18 with 608 views | StokieBlue |
| Is on 17:42 - Apr 18 by monytowbray |
If you’re bored of my “character assassination” already I dread to think how you’d have dealt with being me and reading your posts in the last 5 years.
I have no evidence, purely speculation from personal experience in the world. |
That's another unfounded dig at me. Now I've asked politely, please stop it.
If you have no evidence by your own admission then it's probably best not to call people naive and then go on a rant.
SB | | | |
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| Is on 17:54 - Apr 18 with 595 views | monytowbray |
| Is on 17:47 - Apr 18 by StokieBlue |
That's another unfounded dig at me. Now I've asked politely, please stop it.
If you have no evidence by your own admission then it's probably best not to call people naive and then go on a rant.
SB |
Unfounded? I’ve pointed this out many times. Recently when you accused me of changing a thread to be about ventilators. I said when you own that one maybe I’ll change my mind.
As for assumptions, you seem to do little to call out those pretending lockdown was delayed to avoid fatigue with little evidence. In fact I’ve seen you support this theory.
If the above points aren’t the case then we’ve either got some fraud scientists or they’re as politically driven as those they advice. I doubt either are the case.
Don’t get mad I sussed your act about 6 months ago. Actually it’s probably in your best interests to ignore me for risk of the mask slipping too far. [Post edited 18 Apr 2020 17:56]
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| Is on 17:55 - Apr 18 with 593 views | monytowbray |
| Is on 17:46 - Apr 18 by WD19 |
It’s almost as if some people’s opinions diverge from yours. Imagine.
They have all been sent to earth specifically to ‘gaslight’ you, obviously. There is no other credible reason for them disagreeing with you from time to time. The bastards. |
Yeah being wrong 5 weeks ago about the obvious writing on the wall, taking dogs abuse and now those posters suddenly going very quiet is evidence I must be the one going mad here. | |
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| Is on 17:58 - Apr 18 with 588 views | Mullet |
| Is on 17:44 - Apr 18 by monytowbray |
Imagine how I feel, I was flagging this weeks ago and was called every name under the sun whilst watching people find a new crutch to lean on with every own goal we’ve scored.
Humour is my unhealthy coping mechanism at this point. |
I got loads of kick back after pointing out Boris wasn't very good or authoritative in his command of English and the message he put out over lockdown. I was vindicated in that very thread.
It's not personal, these are unprecedented times. People are scared, people are trying not to panic or clinging on to the lack of control they have in their destiny. You really shouldn't hold it so close to your own worth mate.
People will always lash out when put on their heels. If you say things they can't handle they'll attack you because it's more tangible than words. If they won't change their mind based on evidence and observation it's not worth worrying about or assuming you need to carry it around. |  |
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| Is on 17:58 - Apr 18 with 587 views | longtimefan |
| Is on 17:34 - Apr 18 by Ryorry |
I'd forgotten that - but he was out of the loop on self-isolation for a long time, at quite an early stage too, wasn't he? |
He went into isolation (27th March) after the lockdown started (24th March) so would have been fully engaged prior to the lockdown. |  | | |
| Is on 17:59 - Apr 18 with 585 views | NewcyBlue |
| Is on 17:41 - Apr 18 by bluelagos |
Thing is Callis - it is a very very uncomfortable issue. To accept that our own govt has dropped an almighty boll0ck - and that is costing (right now) significant numbers of lives - is very uncomfortable for a lot of people.
Hence why some are in denial, some angry, it's very uncomfortable to accept what is looking to be the case.
I think those questions need to be asked although I would concede now is maybe not the best time. But they will need to be asked and those who are uncomfortable are going to have to get used to it because there is no way the question is going away imho.
And yeah, some will just defend our politicians or criticise them due to party allegiances, but nothing new there.
Edit - have spent far too much time on here the last few days - so that's me for the night. [Post edited 18 Apr 2020 17:42]
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This is the thing, we need to ask questions when all is said and done.
We will also never really know about how the British public would have reacted if we had been in lockdown for the 6th week already.
South Tyneside has been busier the last couple of days, the park where I take Seb on his bike is a lot busier, with people who obviously don’t live together walking along together talking. Groups of teenagers hanging around together.
The lockdown isn’t being adhered to as stringently as it first was.
Then we have Greece, which has done exceptionally well. They went into lockdown early. Real early.
Hindsight is always 20:20 vision. We need to remember that there are people that the likes of Chris Whitty have to abide by the GMC guidelines. He won’t be making decisions knowing they will kill people just to keep businesses open for a bit longer. He would be struck off as a doctor if so.
Whilst I don’t believe the government have gotten everything right, or even much right, I don’t think we can lay the blame at one door.
We have to remember that when people were asked to stay in, they didn’t. When people were asked not to panic buy, they panic bought.
We all need to take a share of the blame.
We also need to praise those businesses that have stepped up. The Mercedes F1 CPAP, Barbour of South Shields https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/barbour-making-23000-medica and the Breweries all over the country making hand sanitiser. And many many more.
Not just businesses. We have people like Captain Tom Moore, and local heroes looking after their neighbours, forging new communities.
And then we have our NHS. An incredible British institution, one that we can be proud of. One that people are fully understanding what it’s worth.
We need balance at the end of this. We can’t come out of this with nothing but taking shots at the government. |  |
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| Is on 18:00 - Apr 18 with 580 views | monytowbray |
| Is on 17:58 - Apr 18 by Mullet |
I got loads of kick back after pointing out Boris wasn't very good or authoritative in his command of English and the message he put out over lockdown. I was vindicated in that very thread.
It's not personal, these are unprecedented times. People are scared, people are trying not to panic or clinging on to the lack of control they have in their destiny. You really shouldn't hold it so close to your own worth mate.
People will always lash out when put on their heels. If you say things they can't handle they'll attack you because it's more tangible than words. If they won't change their mind based on evidence and observation it's not worth worrying about or assuming you need to carry it around. |
I’ve made my peace with it. Sometimes at least being led by the very likely truth is enough to keep one sane.
Some on here seem to have been tricked into thinking someone being impartial all the time and writing long posts equals intelligence though.
God forbid anyone has convictions in what they’ve watched unfold over the last 10 years/2 months, aye? | |
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| Is on 18:05 - Apr 18 with 565 views | monytowbray |
| Is on 17:59 - Apr 18 by NewcyBlue |
This is the thing, we need to ask questions when all is said and done.
We will also never really know about how the British public would have reacted if we had been in lockdown for the 6th week already.
South Tyneside has been busier the last couple of days, the park where I take Seb on his bike is a lot busier, with people who obviously don’t live together walking along together talking. Groups of teenagers hanging around together.
The lockdown isn’t being adhered to as stringently as it first was.
Then we have Greece, which has done exceptionally well. They went into lockdown early. Real early.
Hindsight is always 20:20 vision. We need to remember that there are people that the likes of Chris Whitty have to abide by the GMC guidelines. He won’t be making decisions knowing they will kill people just to keep businesses open for a bit longer. He would be struck off as a doctor if so.
Whilst I don’t believe the government have gotten everything right, or even much right, I don’t think we can lay the blame at one door.
We have to remember that when people were asked to stay in, they didn’t. When people were asked not to panic buy, they panic bought.
We all need to take a share of the blame.
We also need to praise those businesses that have stepped up. The Mercedes F1 CPAP, Barbour of South Shields https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/barbour-making-23000-medica and the Breweries all over the country making hand sanitiser. And many many more.
Not just businesses. We have people like Captain Tom Moore, and local heroes looking after their neighbours, forging new communities.
And then we have our NHS. An incredible British institution, one that we can be proud of. One that people are fully understanding what it’s worth.
We need balance at the end of this. We can’t come out of this with nothing but taking shots at the government. |
I agree proper enquiries need to happen later, but I saw this yesterday that very much sums up my thoughts on asking questions.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/coronavirus-matt-hancock-ventilators-ppe-nh | |
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| Is on 18:08 - Apr 18 with 562 views | StokieBlue |
| Is on 17:54 - Apr 18 by monytowbray |
Unfounded? I’ve pointed this out many times. Recently when you accused me of changing a thread to be about ventilators. I said when you own that one maybe I’ll change my mind.
As for assumptions, you seem to do little to call out those pretending lockdown was delayed to avoid fatigue with little evidence. In fact I’ve seen you support this theory.
If the above points aren’t the case then we’ve either got some fraud scientists or they’re as politically driven as those they advice. I doubt either are the case.
Don’t get mad I sussed your act about 6 months ago. Actually it’s probably in your best interests to ignore me for risk of the mask slipping too far. [Post edited 18 Apr 2020 17:56]
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When you accused me of it before you left for a while a good number of posters said you were incorrect in that thread. Recently you did it again and the posts were removed.
I'm not putting anyone on ignore, I've politely asked you to stop. You called me out on this thread for no reason. I hadn't even replied to you, I just arrowed a post.
The rest is whatabouterry. You called a large number of people naive without any evidence to support your view. You even confirmed this. I'm not even sure why you're arguing the point given this.
SB | | | |
| Is on 18:08 - Apr 18 with 562 views | Mullet |
| Is on 18:00 - Apr 18 by monytowbray |
I’ve made my peace with it. Sometimes at least being led by the very likely truth is enough to keep one sane.
Some on here seem to have been tricked into thinking someone being impartial all the time and writing long posts equals intelligence though.
God forbid anyone has convictions in what they’ve watched unfold over the last 10 years/2 months, aye? |
But who knows? Having convictions, having one take is just one side of the matter. This assumption that any of us have the insight to apply to a complex, global puzzle to our own experience and then make sense of someone else's just isn't practical.
The problem with all this war rhetoric is people feel they need to fight one when they discuss it too, you're falling into that trap too. People on here aren't your enemy. Those that think like that, always come unstuck and you seem to be falling into that trap here too. | |
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| Is on 18:09 - Apr 18 with 556 views | WD19 |
| Is on 18:00 - Apr 18 by monytowbray |
I’ve made my peace with it. Sometimes at least being led by the very likely truth is enough to keep one sane.
Some on here seem to have been tricked into thinking someone being impartial all the time and writing long posts equals intelligence though.
God forbid anyone has convictions in what they’ve watched unfold over the last 10 years/2 months, aye? |
So to summarise: You’ve decided you are right; you are impartial and people who disagree with you not. Personal abuse is bad if it is done to you, but OK if you do it (see point one above). The stick you occasionally get is simply because of your radical and forward thinking views and absolutely nothing to do with your delivery.
Anything I have missed? | | | |
| Is "following the science" on 18:10 - Apr 18 with 557 views | Ryorry |
| Is "following the science" on 17:33 - Apr 18 by WD19 |
Professor John Newton is, amongst other things...
Honorary Professor of Public Health and Epidemiology at the University of Manchester and University of Exeter and academic epidemiologist in the University of Oxford.
He is also outstandingly sensible...although that is neither here nor there.
I judge him unlikely to be a liar. |
I know Whitty is - but what the doc on the prog was getting at (I think) was that the Govt. should be consulting those who are *experienced in actually dealing with* epidemics/pandemics (and social care in those situations) - not just those who are qualified in the theory of it. | |
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| Is on 18:14 - Apr 18 with 548 views | monytowbray |
| Is on 18:08 - Apr 18 by StokieBlue |
When you accused me of it before you left for a while a good number of posters said you were incorrect in that thread. Recently you did it again and the posts were removed.
I'm not putting anyone on ignore, I've politely asked you to stop. You called me out on this thread for no reason. I hadn't even replied to you, I just arrowed a post.
The rest is whatabouterry. You called a large number of people naive without any evidence to support your view. You even confirmed this. I'm not even sure why you're arguing the point given this.
SB |
Where was I incorrect? In the part where I stated the EU scheme involved PPE? Or the part when I obviously was away from the internet for hours when 4 posters at least went onto the subject of ventilators and you claimed I’d magically changed the subject?
Don’t pat yourself on the back too hard because you were able to rally a pile on with your usual suspects.
I just think you need to take a self-awareness course. Because you seem to have no issue taking multiple unprovoked personal issues with my opinion yet get upset when the favour is returned.
Or perhaps, we can wait 3 years for you to start posting the same stuff as I am now with your classic “I am smart and impartial and write in long paragraphs” spin and everyone makes out you’re some kind of fountain of forththinking wisdom despite calling me every name under the sun and objecting massively when I said it before. Sort of like veganism and the environment.
As I said, I’m probably best ignored now I’ve sussed you out. | |
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| Is on 18:16 - Apr 18 with 536 views | monytowbray |
| Is on 18:09 - Apr 18 by WD19 |
So to summarise: You’ve decided you are right; you are impartial and people who disagree with you not. Personal abuse is bad if it is done to you, but OK if you do it (see point one above). The stick you occasionally get is simply because of your radical and forward thinking views and absolutely nothing to do with your delivery.
Anything I have missed? |
I think the situation we’ve got with a lack of PPE, a death toll with potential to be the highest in Europe and a severe lack of testing would suggest more I could have been right, but don’t let facts get in the way. | |
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| Is on 18:18 - Apr 18 with 531 views | monytowbray |
| Is on 18:08 - Apr 18 by Mullet |
But who knows? Having convictions, having one take is just one side of the matter. This assumption that any of us have the insight to apply to a complex, global puzzle to our own experience and then make sense of someone else's just isn't practical.
The problem with all this war rhetoric is people feel they need to fight one when they discuss it too, you're falling into that trap too. People on here aren't your enemy. Those that think like that, always come unstuck and you seem to be falling into that trap here too. |
Likely. It does get challenging when you can’t even post links and evidence without someone assuming it’s all political point scoring and not genuine concern. | |
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| Is on 18:20 - Apr 18 with 523 views | WD19 |
| Is on 18:16 - Apr 18 by monytowbray |
I think the situation we’ve got with a lack of PPE, a death toll with potential to be the highest in Europe and a severe lack of testing would suggest more I could have been right, but don’t let facts get in the way. |
Yes, we have a potential situation and you could have been right. | | | |
| Is "following the science" on 18:20 - Apr 18 with 524 views | monytowbray |
| Is "following the science" on 18:10 - Apr 18 by Ryorry |
I know Whitty is - but what the doc on the prog was getting at (I think) was that the Govt. should be consulting those who are *experienced in actually dealing with* epidemics/pandemics (and social care in those situations) - not just those who are qualified in the theory of it. |
The situation you describe is management and the capitalist hierarchy system to a tee. It’s no surprise that’s where we find ourselves. | |
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| Is on 18:20 - Apr 18 with 522 views | monytowbray |
| Is on 18:20 - Apr 18 by WD19 |
Yes, we have a potential situation and you could have been right. |
No sh1t. | |
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