| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is 10:40 - Jul 20 with 11557 views | Darth_Koont |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:38 - Jul 20 with 1044 views | Darth_Koont |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:14 - Jul 20 by lowhouseblue |
the thing that people like you, corbyn and boris do is to unify the centre. the common ground from the centre left of the labour party through to the socially progressive left of the tory party looks a lot bigger now given the nutters at either extreme. |
The "unified centre" that's occupied by people who are already voting SNP, Green, Plaid Cymru, LibDem, Labour or Conservative? The "unified centre" that couldn't make up its mind on Brexit given half of them were pushing for the EU referendum in the first place? The "unified centre" that's been overpowered by the populist right? The "unified centre" that has consistently failed to address the structural inequalities in the UK such as child poverty, regional imbalances and social justice? The "unified centre" that shows little to no grasp on or commitment to addressing the challenges the UK and the world face from the environment, AI, automation, religious and nationalist extremism etc.
Fill your boots. Personally, instead of chasing those voters and losing all perspective and standards to win them over, I think leading the discussion re: the need for a progressive, evidence-based and more equitable alternative would be better for everyone.
All I can see with a unified centre is more of the same. More punching left and bunkering the right because, hey, at least the right takes care of a lot of people's selfish concerns. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:39 - Jul 20 with 1047 views | J2BLUE |
Quite predictable. Quite a lot of people seem to think Boris has done a good job during the pandemic and that it's now over. Starmer should have plenty to work with as details of the lockdown warnings emerge and the u-turn over face masks. The Tories are also seen as trusted with the economy which is probably not going to rebound in the short time before the next election. You don't need to be ahead at the five mile stage to win a marathon so Labour loyalists shouldn't be too bothered. |  |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:40 - Jul 20 with 1041 views | lowhouseblue |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:35 - Jul 20 by LankHenners |
I’ve already explained what it means and you didn’t like it so you dismissed it.
It’s fine to say you’ve got this wrong and misread the situation, no-one will think any less of you. |
ah, so that was when you said the guardian published "tides of articles speaking against the left-wing leader of the Labour Party". so with that meaning is 'punching leftwards' an objective and neutral / non-judgemental observation implying no criticism of the guardian? come on now, be honest. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:44 - Jul 20 with 1029 views | Darth_Koont |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:22 - Jul 20 by m14_blue |
It's not often I've thought this recently but I make you right.
The Guardian is a left of centre newspaper, not a propagandist cheerleader for the Labour party. If their columnists thought Corbyn would be an electoral disaster then they were right to say so (and proven to be accurate).
I'm not a regular reader, and its obviously far from perfect, but if you think the Guardian isn't left wing enough then you're in a very small minority and you're never going to have a majority government that exactly represents your views.
PR would make a massive difference but with our bipartisan FPTP the closest you'll get will be a left of centre Labour party with decent people leading it. |
It's an utterly self-fulfilling prophecy though.
The Guardian and the Labour Party PLP effectively withdrew their support in any real sense - and actively briefed against the party leader. Because they don't want even a sniff of European-style social democracy. They want power and influence within the UK's existing centre-right framework.
I'm not sure people are aware of just how far to the right our centre is. It's pretty much like the US now. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:44 - Jul 20 with 1025 views | LankHenners |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:40 - Jul 20 by lowhouseblue |
ah, so that was when you said the guardian published "tides of articles speaking against the left-wing leader of the Labour Party". so with that meaning is 'punching leftwards' an objective and neutral / non-judgemental observation implying no criticism of the guardian? come on now, be honest. |
The Guardian publishing several articles of a number of years speaking with heavy criticism of the left wing leader of the Labour Party is punching leftwards. Whether you agreed with their position on that is neither here nor there.
Really not a hard concept to understand. Although I suspect you do understand and are too proud/shameless to just hold your hands up and say ‘mea culpa, misread you there’. |  |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:46 - Jul 20 with 1017 views | lowhouseblue |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:38 - Jul 20 by Darth_Koont |
The "unified centre" that's occupied by people who are already voting SNP, Green, Plaid Cymru, LibDem, Labour or Conservative? The "unified centre" that couldn't make up its mind on Brexit given half of them were pushing for the EU referendum in the first place? The "unified centre" that's been overpowered by the populist right? The "unified centre" that has consistently failed to address the structural inequalities in the UK such as child poverty, regional imbalances and social justice? The "unified centre" that shows little to no grasp on or commitment to addressing the challenges the UK and the world face from the environment, AI, automation, religious and nationalist extremism etc.
Fill your boots. Personally, instead of chasing those voters and losing all perspective and standards to win them over, I think leading the discussion re: the need for a progressive, evidence-based and more equitable alternative would be better for everyone.
All I can see with a unified centre is more of the same. More punching left and bunkering the right because, hey, at least the right takes care of a lot of people's selfish concerns. |
would that be evidence-based in the sense of look what a hard left leader of the labour party has given us?
faced with your 'alternative' more people decided they were better off with boris. how appalling is that.
anyway, i'm off for lunch. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:50 - Jul 20 with 1003 views | lowhouseblue |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:44 - Jul 20 by LankHenners |
The Guardian publishing several articles of a number of years speaking with heavy criticism of the left wing leader of the Labour Party is punching leftwards. Whether you agreed with their position on that is neither here nor there.
Really not a hard concept to understand. Although I suspect you do understand and are too proud/shameless to just hold your hands up and say ‘mea culpa, misread you there’. |
ah, a tide has become 'several'. so the only way it could have avoided 'punching left' is not to have published, across it's tens of thousands of published pieces including opinion pieces, 'several' articles critical of corbyn. i see. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:55 - Jul 20 with 985 views | LankHenners |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:50 - Jul 20 by lowhouseblue |
ah, a tide has become 'several'. so the only way it could have avoided 'punching left' is not to have published, across it's tens of thousands of published pieces including opinion pieces, 'several' articles critical of corbyn. i see. |
I didn’t want to be repetitive - I can go back to “tide” if you prefer?
I think even you can see you’re losing it here when all you’ve got is pedantic semantics. For someone who’s said they don’t care what people think on here you’re spending a lot of time arguing about something you misunderstood and then subsequently an argument you invented. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:00 - Jul 20 with 967 views | m14_blue |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:44 - Jul 20 by Darth_Koont |
It's an utterly self-fulfilling prophecy though.
The Guardian and the Labour Party PLP effectively withdrew their support in any real sense - and actively briefed against the party leader. Because they don't want even a sniff of European-style social democracy. They want power and influence within the UK's existing centre-right framework.
I'm not sure people are aware of just how far to the right our centre is. It's pretty much like the US now. |
Yep, I get what you're saying with the first paragraph but I just think they called it as they saw it rather than blindly supporting the red team in the way some of the right wing rags do.
I don't think its true to say the PLP and the Guardian want power and influence at any cost, although they probably realise that you need power and influence to change anything.
I'm not saying the status quo is a good thing, I think our country would be a much better place if the majority shared the same political views as you. However, the truth is that they don't. We may find that baffling but it's just where we are at the moment.
It's no good having progressive views if they're not tempered by the pragmatism required to make any of them reality.
The increased tribalism that leads people to turn against natural allies such as The Guardian is so painful for those of us who just want to see the tories gone. |  | | |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:01 - Jul 20 with 962 views | Darth_Koont |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:46 - Jul 20 by lowhouseblue |
would that be evidence-based in the sense of look what a hard left leader of the labour party has given us?
faced with your 'alternative' more people decided they were better off with boris. how appalling is that.
anyway, i'm off for lunch. |
No, evidence of the real world. What works, what doesn't? What can we learn from other countries, from experts who have studied these things etc.?
I'll leave the focus group manoeuvering and ultimately pointless posturing to the politicians and their cheerleaders who find that stuff personally rewarding. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:15 - Jul 20 with 928 views | Darth_Koont |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:00 - Jul 20 by m14_blue |
Yep, I get what you're saying with the first paragraph but I just think they called it as they saw it rather than blindly supporting the red team in the way some of the right wing rags do.
I don't think its true to say the PLP and the Guardian want power and influence at any cost, although they probably realise that you need power and influence to change anything.
I'm not saying the status quo is a good thing, I think our country would be a much better place if the majority shared the same political views as you. However, the truth is that they don't. We may find that baffling but it's just where we are at the moment.
It's no good having progressive views if they're not tempered by the pragmatism required to make any of them reality.
The increased tribalism that leads people to turn against natural allies such as The Guardian is so painful for those of us who just want to see the tories gone. |
You can argue that entirely the other way if the primary goal was to remove a Tory government and get a better alternative even if it was flawed.
But they ignored calls to work with the leadership and redoubled their efforts even after the signs in 2017 that there was a significant appetite for change among the population.
The problem is that too many of the centre and centre-left actually want personal power and influence. And that's based on a centre-right establishment not in progressive politics. Look at all the Change lot who've slid into well-paid soft power roles, plus the government appointments and peerages for the likes of Mann, Austin and Woodcock.
A disturbing number of modern UK politicians are motivated by their careers rather than ideals and actual political representation. Indeed they're invariably the most vocal and successful ones. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:15 - Jul 20 with 927 views | Swansea_Blue |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 12:44 - Jul 20 by LankHenners |
The Guardian publishing several articles of a number of years speaking with heavy criticism of the left wing leader of the Labour Party is punching leftwards. Whether you agreed with their position on that is neither here nor there.
Really not a hard concept to understand. Although I suspect you do understand and are too proud/shameless to just hold your hands up and say ‘mea culpa, misread you there’. |
In fairness people in the Guardian also published a number of opinion pieces in defence of Corbyn. And also others highlighting the internal power struggle and the likely impact that would have on the party and the country (as predicted here in 2016 and which has largely come to pass - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/13/corbyn-rivals-labour-sinki
There's a fairly broad church of views represented in the paper. I don't see a Guardian hellbent on enabling the Tories. I see one that's charted the Labour infighting and offered a number of opinions on that from different political viewpoints, from the centre leftwards in crude terms.
Neither 'side' come out of this particularly well. While they tear each other apart, they facilitate the mess we have in Number 10. I don't believe the Guardian is driving it. It's hard to make a case for that when the rebel MPs themselves were undermining Corbyn. [Post edited 20 Jul 2020 13:19]
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:23 - Jul 20 with 894 views | Darth_Koont |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:15 - Jul 20 by Swansea_Blue |
In fairness people in the Guardian also published a number of opinion pieces in defence of Corbyn. And also others highlighting the internal power struggle and the likely impact that would have on the party and the country (as predicted here in 2016 and which has largely come to pass - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/13/corbyn-rivals-labour-sinki
There's a fairly broad church of views represented in the paper. I don't see a Guardian hellbent on enabling the Tories. I see one that's charted the Labour infighting and offered a number of opinions on that from different political viewpoints, from the centre leftwards in crude terms.
Neither 'side' come out of this particularly well. While they tear each other apart, they facilitate the mess we have in Number 10. I don't believe the Guardian is driving it. It's hard to make a case for that when the rebel MPs themselves were undermining Corbyn. [Post edited 20 Jul 2020 13:19]
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I'd rather the Guardian is around than not. As you say, there's nothing else close in terms of size in that part of the spectrum and they do raise important issues.
But they really need to take a long, hard look at themselves as well. Ultimately, they defended a view of what the UK needs (and a type of soft-centrism) that I don't think is shared by many people outside their London-centric, white professional middle-class but well-connected bubble. It certainly doesn't seem that relevant when put against the bare metrics of life and the future for the majority. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:26 - Jul 20 with 884 views | SpruceMoose |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 11:59 - Jul 20 by GlasgowBlue |
It rather amusing to see a number of posts on here holding up articles from the Torygraph and the Mail attacking Johnson as proof how woeful and incompetent he and his party are but when a left leaning newspaper did the same regarding the Jezziah, they were denounced as traitors to the left wing cause. |
"I'll take the 3 wood for this one please Lowhouse"
Proceeds to hammer ball out of bounds.
"Bloody hell Lowie, Benters was much better at this than you". |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:45 - Jul 20 with 849 views | lowhouseblue |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:26 - Jul 20 by SpruceMoose |
"I'll take the 3 wood for this one please Lowhouse"
Proceeds to hammer ball out of bounds.
"Bloody hell Lowie, Benters was much better at this than you". |
sorry?? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:48 - Jul 20 with 838 views | Herbivore |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:45 - Jul 20 by lowhouseblue |
sorry?? |
He's using a metaphor. I guess bot tech isn't advanced enough to understand metaphors yet. |  |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:53 - Jul 20 with 817 views | gordon |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 11:06 - Jul 20 by GlasgowBlue |
Yeah that been entertaining to watch.
You have to have some warped view of politics if you think people like Marina Hyde is “Tory enabling”. [Post edited 20 Jul 2020 11:06]
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John Harris?! |  | | |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:53 - Jul 20 with 814 views | lowhouseblue |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:48 - Jul 20 by Herbivore |
He's using a metaphor. I guess bot tech isn't advanced enough to understand metaphors yet. |
you're right, the technology only recognises metaphors that actually work. the machine learning for deciphering links between entirely random things hasn't got a big enough database yet so it's good of spruce to help out. [Post edited 20 Jul 2020 14:00]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:56 - Jul 20 with 802 views | Herbivore |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:53 - Jul 20 by lowhouseblue |
you're right, the technology only recognises metaphors that actually work. the machine learning for deciphering links between entirely random things hasn't got a big enough database yet so it's good of spruce to help out. [Post edited 20 Jul 2020 14:00]
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Very good. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 15:55 - Jul 20 with 730 views | GlasgowBlue |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 11:56 - Jul 20 by LankHenners |
Any Labour leader should be ahead of this shower. Starmer should resign. |
Starmer is ahead of Johnson on a head to head regarding most issues. Something his predecessor never managed.
He’s making the Labour Party electable again and he’s certainly been true to his word regarding antisemitism.
That’s another one to bite the dust
Labour could be antisemite free by 2024. |  |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 15:56 - Jul 20 with 727 views | tractordownsouth |
I think many people are still voting along Brexit lines. We've seen some of those who switched to the Tories for the first time move back - Labour are leading in the seats lost in December - but not a massive overall shift.
I'll be worried if the polls are still like this in 9 months' time, and if Starmer falls behind in the best PM poll again. |  |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 16:04 - Jul 20 with 717 views | Darth_Koont |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 15:55 - Jul 20 by GlasgowBlue |
Starmer is ahead of Johnson on a head to head regarding most issues. Something his predecessor never managed.
He’s making the Labour Party electable again and he’s certainly been true to his word regarding antisemitism.
That’s another one to bite the dust
Labour could be antisemite free by 2024. |
Oh FFS | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 16:09 - Jul 20 with 702 views | LankHenners |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 15:55 - Jul 20 by GlasgowBlue |
Starmer is ahead of Johnson on a head to head regarding most issues. Something his predecessor never managed.
He’s making the Labour Party electable again and he’s certainly been true to his word regarding antisemitism.
That’s another one to bite the dust
Labour could be antisemite free by 2024. |
It's a joke, it's not that deep. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 16:10 - Jul 20 with 694 views | Darth_Koont |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 15:56 - Jul 20 by tractordownsouth |
I think many people are still voting along Brexit lines. We've seen some of those who switched to the Tories for the first time move back - Labour are leading in the seats lost in December - but not a massive overall shift.
I'll be worried if the polls are still like this in 9 months' time, and if Starmer falls behind in the best PM poll again. |
Hmmm. I think you have a little too much faith in performative party politics.
I'm increasingly underwhelmed by the lack of ideas and policies. And I'm starting to think that Starmer isn't at all what he said he was in those 10 pledges. | |
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| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 16:15 - Jul 20 with 666 views | tractordownsouth |
| What's depressing is how utterly predictable this is on 13:23 - Jul 20 by Darth_Koont |
I'd rather the Guardian is around than not. As you say, there's nothing else close in terms of size in that part of the spectrum and they do raise important issues.
But they really need to take a long, hard look at themselves as well. Ultimately, they defended a view of what the UK needs (and a type of soft-centrism) that I don't think is shared by many people outside their London-centric, white professional middle-class but well-connected bubble. It certainly doesn't seem that relevant when put against the bare metrics of life and the future for the majority. |
If anything, it's the last few years of the Labour Party that has been too London-centric. In the last election, we lost swathes of seats all over the North and Midlands, whilst maintaining our total in the capital city. Sure, the likes of Toynbee were pushing for a remain position, which partly contributed to those losses, but I really don't think Guardian opinion pieces have much sway over the Labour leadership.
And GB raised a good point about papers criticising their own side. If the Guardian had given JC entirely positive coverage, that would have been as bad as the Sun/Express, who cheer their own side no matter how awful they are. They wrote negative articles about Brown and have done a couple about Starmer. Granted, it's not on the same scale as they did with Corbyn, but I'm fine with them criticising the leadership as long as they're generally in support, rather than cheering them to the rafters, whatever they do.
Worth remembering that the Guardian endorsed Labour in both 2017 and 2019, so they weren't advocating a Tory government in either election. | |
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