| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:44 - Jul 29 with 4405 views | Libero |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:39 - Jul 29 by PhilTWTD |
I don't think it's as simple as MM v idiots. There were plenty of people who had no time for MM but who wouldn't have dreamt of being abusive towards him. Plenty of those fans stopped going either because of the football or because they had no time for MM as a person.
I'm not sure where the scism started, I'm not sure he was many people's idea of a Town manager when he came in but he was accepted initially as we were in such desperate trouble and he turned things around. |
That last paragraph say's a lot about our supporters.
McCarthy is a man that has managed with distinction in the Championship, Premier League and even at a World Cup, yet he wasn't many people's idea of a Town manager.
I used to scoff at Spurs and West Ham supporters in the late 90's/early 00's who claimed that it was more important to play a certain brand of football than it was to win football matches, turns out we've slowly turned into a similarly goofy supporter base... |  | |  |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:49 - Jul 29 with 4386 views | PhilTWTD |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:44 - Jul 29 by Libero |
That last paragraph say's a lot about our supporters.
McCarthy is a man that has managed with distinction in the Championship, Premier League and even at a World Cup, yet he wasn't many people's idea of a Town manager.
I used to scoff at Spurs and West Ham supporters in the late 90's/early 00's who claimed that it was more important to play a certain brand of football than it was to win football matches, turns out we've slowly turned into a similarly goofy supporter base... |
I was thinking in terms of character rather than style of football, but there was an aspect of that certainly, the mythologised 'Ipswich way'. And I don't think there's anything wrong in that, to be honest. Clubs should have a footballing ethos or culture based on their traditions. |  | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:53 - Jul 29 with 4369 views | Libero |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:49 - Jul 29 by PhilTWTD |
I was thinking in terms of character rather than style of football, but there was an aspect of that certainly, the mythologised 'Ipswich way'. And I don't think there's anything wrong in that, to be honest. Clubs should have a footballing ethos or culture based on their traditions. |
I'm in agreement that clubs should have that kind of identity, I just think that if a manager has been put in place and has proven he can/does/will get relative results considering what he has to work with, then you must back them.
It's an absolute LOL that we somehow managed to prove Chris Sutton correct for once in his life. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:58 - Jul 29 with 4358 views | PJH |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:49 - Jul 29 by PhilTWTD |
I was thinking in terms of character rather than style of football, but there was an aspect of that certainly, the mythologised 'Ipswich way'. And I don't think there's anything wrong in that, to be honest. Clubs should have a footballing ethos or culture based on their traditions. |
But what are our traditions?
Off field there used to be an 'Ipswich way' but onfield there has not been a consistent 'Ipswich way'.
Alf Ramsey basically won us the title because he devised a system of playing that was unique in English football at that time and it took the rest of the teams a year to work out how to combat it.
Bobby Robson during his time played a few different systems, the 1980/81 team played nothing like the 1974/75 team.
Nobody else has got close to achieving what those two achieved but most managers that followed plus the two in between SAR and SBR have had different ideas on how to try to win a football match.
So off the pitch there was a tradition but that does not really exist now but there has never really been a traditional way of playing football the 'Ipswich way'. |  | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:02 - Jul 29 with 4352 views | TieDyedIn95 |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 09:13 - Jul 29 by Steve_M |
They have understated our finishing position in 17-18, we were 12th not 16th.
Those fans who thought MM was holding us back from the top six were the best ones but it isn't really down to the fans, it wasn't them who let Hurst rip up an established Championship side and overpay for a load of lower division players. [Post edited 29 Jul 2020 9:23]
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That's because Marcus Evans and his advisers don't understand football. The money they would have SAVED had they invested better in Mick! We'd have probably had a promotion to our name now and the debt wiped out by a single season in the top flight. Instead we're playing in a league where the teams can refuse to play because they cant afford to play games, yet they can still sign all these players close season despite being skint....
This is a living nightmare. |  |
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:12 - Jul 29 with 4339 views | PhilTWTD |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:58 - Jul 29 by PJH |
But what are our traditions?
Off field there used to be an 'Ipswich way' but onfield there has not been a consistent 'Ipswich way'.
Alf Ramsey basically won us the title because he devised a system of playing that was unique in English football at that time and it took the rest of the teams a year to work out how to combat it.
Bobby Robson during his time played a few different systems, the 1980/81 team played nothing like the 1974/75 team.
Nobody else has got close to achieving what those two achieved but most managers that followed plus the two in between SAR and SBR have had different ideas on how to try to win a football match.
So off the pitch there was a tradition but that does not really exist now but there has never really been a traditional way of playing football the 'Ipswich way'. |
I think on the pitch the style of the 81 side which came to be viewed as Bobby Robson's Town style, which George Burley emulated, Jim Magilton later aiming to do the same when he was manager. I think that approach is what most would understand by the 'Ipswich way', even if, as you say, it's not the whole story. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:21 - Jul 29 with 4318 views | PhilTWTD |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:53 - Jul 29 by Libero |
I'm in agreement that clubs should have that kind of identity, I just think that if a manager has been put in place and has proven he can/does/will get relative results considering what he has to work with, then you must back them.
It's an absolute LOL that we somehow managed to prove Chris Sutton correct for once in his life. |
Perhaps, but if it's not much fun to watch and the manager comes across in a surley manner, implying he doesn't give a flying one about supporters, I'm not sure it's too surprising that fans will make their thoughts known and clamour for something different.
The likes of Chris Sutton and others in the wider media never really got what the McCarthy situation was about. They thought it was a frustration about results and being in mid-table year after year, when that wasn't really the crux of the matter, character and style were the main issues.
Obviously wrong decisions have been made - several of them - since MM's departure but his exit hasn't been the issue, that needed to happen for the good of the club given the impact his rift with fans was having. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:23 - Jul 29 with 4305 views | Libero |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:21 - Jul 29 by PhilTWTD |
Perhaps, but if it's not much fun to watch and the manager comes across in a surley manner, implying he doesn't give a flying one about supporters, I'm not sure it's too surprising that fans will make their thoughts known and clamour for something different.
The likes of Chris Sutton and others in the wider media never really got what the McCarthy situation was about. They thought it was a frustration about results and being in mid-table year after year, when that wasn't really the crux of the matter, character and style were the main issues.
Obviously wrong decisions have been made - several of them - since MM's departure but his exit hasn't been the issue, that needed to happen for the good of the club given the impact his rift with fans was having. |
I don't disagree with you, I just wonder if in my life time I will ever see a manager appointed at Ipswich Town with credentials as good as Mick's were.
I doubt it. | | | |
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:23 - Jul 29 with 4302 views | patrickswell |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 12:39 - Jul 29 by PhilTWTD |
I don't think it's as simple as MM v idiots. There were plenty of people who had no time for MM but who wouldn't have dreamt of being abusive towards him. Plenty of those fans stopped going either because of the football or because they had no time for MM as a person.
I'm not sure where the scism started, I'm not sure he was many people's idea of a Town manager when he came in but he was accepted initially as we were in such desperate trouble and he turned things around. |
The starting point was probably September 2015 with the response to the 5-1 loss at Reading (retrenchment to a more defensive mode of football) and the selection for the Man Utd League Cup tie, which may have been fine if we’d won the next league game but we only drew it.
We stop winning at home, Tommy Oar leaves citing concerns over the style of football, we don’t strengthen in the January window despite being in the top 6, Berra drops his “We’re Ipswich, not Barcelona” quote. It starts to become obvious that we’re not looking as a club to push on from 2014/15.
The 2016/17 season was an utter slog, Murphy sold and not adequately replaced, our best outfield player is a loanee, humiliated on national television in the FA Cup and more vibes coming out of the club that says, “Stop expecting things. Be grateful for what you have.”
By end of that season, Mick realises that things have been poor and makes conciliatory noises. Evans makes some money available to bring in quality like Waghorn, Garner, Adeyemi, Huws - meaning we can let go of the Forest Green Rovers substitute. Results pick up but we still lose to sides with better quality like Fulham, edged out by Leeds, lose AGAIN to Norwich...all the usual frustrations. Mick actually played Celina regularly from the start after the Burton game, so he wasn’t totally stubborn. But injuries bite and we keep giving late equalisers away and performances tail off and nothing happens in January and then we get to Norwich and Hull at home 8n a game where a win could have put us into the the top 6...
Even at it’s worst, good times felt like they could be just around the corner under Mick with a bit of luck and a following wind. Now, it feels like we need to find a genie. |  | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:25 - Jul 29 with 4295 views | WD19 |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 09:17 - Jul 29 by patrickswell |
Guy was working miracles and we went after the miracle worker instead of the man who kept giving him 5 loaves and 2 fishes every year and saying , “There you are, get on with that!”
Imagine if Mick had thrown Evans under the bus instead of shielding him from criticism. Brazil’s Most Wanted Man would have been f–ked. |
It’s almost as if MM was professional and did his job to the best of his ability to help his employer.... |  | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:32 - Jul 29 with 4282 views | PhilTWTD |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:23 - Jul 29 by Libero |
I don't disagree with you, I just wonder if in my life time I will ever see a manager appointed at Ipswich Town with credentials as good as Mick's were.
I doubt it. |
I'm sure we will, might take us until we're in the Championship again to attract someone with his sort of CV though. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:46 - Jul 29 with 4260 views | Darth_Koont |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:21 - Jul 29 by PhilTWTD |
Perhaps, but if it's not much fun to watch and the manager comes across in a surley manner, implying he doesn't give a flying one about supporters, I'm not sure it's too surprising that fans will make their thoughts known and clamour for something different.
The likes of Chris Sutton and others in the wider media never really got what the McCarthy situation was about. They thought it was a frustration about results and being in mid-table year after year, when that wasn't really the crux of the matter, character and style were the main issues.
Obviously wrong decisions have been made - several of them - since MM's departure but his exit hasn't been the issue, that needed to happen for the good of the club given the impact his rift with fans was having. |
I certainly think there was a refusal to be objective about the context Mick was working in and where we really were in the football pyramid by then.
That's the downside of the subjective passion fans have for their clubs but even a half-way sensible appreciation of our, Mick's and the team's position could have transformed the narrative into a much more respectful and united front. Which I think would have made everyone feel better, may well have helped on the pitch and put the real pressure on Evans if anyone.
I still have no idea what people were really expecting while Mick was here and with him leaving. As pointed out earlier in the thread, it seems Brexitesque. [Post edited 29 Jul 2020 13:47]
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:54 - Jul 29 with 4235 views | Enigma_Blue |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:01 - Jul 29 by JakeITFC |
It is important to remember that it was really boring, we were going nowhere and that the relationship between (some) fans and management had completely gone.
That we've made consistently bad choices since then probably was quite likely, but it isn't to say that we should have just accepted being a nothing club going nowhere. |
"we were going nowhere"
Well we have certainly gone somewhere since he left, down a division!
I would rather tread water as a championship club with an occasional shot at getting in the play offs and derby games against Norwich to look forward to than what we have got now. The fans just had to show a bit of patience. MM was willing to give youth a chance more so than he got credit for and way more than subsequently under Hurst and Lambert. Remember Bishop, Dozzell and Downes all made there debuts under Mick and no doubt he would have given the likes of Wolfenden, El Mizouni, Lankester and Dobra an chance to gain experience. Imagine those young players playing alongside proven championship performers like Waghorn, Garner, McGoldrick and Bialkowski.
As for Micks style of football it may not have been the prettiest at times but apart from the 16/17 season when we finished 16 we always had a decent Goals For record each season. Certainly better than under Hurst and Lambert and even better than under Keane and Jewell. I know I never get tired of seeing Town score goals. [Post edited 29 Jul 2020 14:00]
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 14:20 - Jul 29 with 4212 views | Darth_Koont |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:54 - Jul 29 by Enigma_Blue |
"we were going nowhere"
Well we have certainly gone somewhere since he left, down a division!
I would rather tread water as a championship club with an occasional shot at getting in the play offs and derby games against Norwich to look forward to than what we have got now. The fans just had to show a bit of patience. MM was willing to give youth a chance more so than he got credit for and way more than subsequently under Hurst and Lambert. Remember Bishop, Dozzell and Downes all made there debuts under Mick and no doubt he would have given the likes of Wolfenden, El Mizouni, Lankester and Dobra an chance to gain experience. Imagine those young players playing alongside proven championship performers like Waghorn, Garner, McGoldrick and Bialkowski.
As for Micks style of football it may not have been the prettiest at times but apart from the 16/17 season when we finished 16 we always had a decent Goals For record each season. Certainly better than under Hurst and Lambert and even better than under Keane and Jewell. I know I never get tired of seeing Town score goals. [Post edited 29 Jul 2020 14:00]
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I agree we we were treading water somewhat but there were clear signs.
If people think back we didn't push on after 2014-15 as we largely tried to repeat it at the same level of investment. Then we moved to an even more sustainable (yet nevertheless cheaper) approach with the 5 point plan.
A big big part of this plan was using home-grown youngsters and finding bargains to increase the quality and value of the team. The only problem was that we were waiting for youngsters to emerge after the first half of Evans's reign when we weren't focusing much on the academy at all.
So the treading water was really about a lack of finance and the time needed to make the sustainable approach work. But there's no doubt that with the emergence of promising youths like Dozzell, Nydam and Downes and the transfer value we'd accumulated with Waghorn, Webster, Bart and others that we'd created a very good platform by that stage.
Obviously we weren't performing to the level that we wanted but there was a context for this that seemed to be ignored totally. So much so that this platform was scrapped by Hurst (and to an extent Evans as his boss) without people really registering. Because people were negatively obsessed with Mick as the problem by then, rather than a positive. | |
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 14:35 - Jul 29 with 4191 views | patrickswell |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 14:20 - Jul 29 by Darth_Koont |
I agree we we were treading water somewhat but there were clear signs.
If people think back we didn't push on after 2014-15 as we largely tried to repeat it at the same level of investment. Then we moved to an even more sustainable (yet nevertheless cheaper) approach with the 5 point plan.
A big big part of this plan was using home-grown youngsters and finding bargains to increase the quality and value of the team. The only problem was that we were waiting for youngsters to emerge after the first half of Evans's reign when we weren't focusing much on the academy at all.
So the treading water was really about a lack of finance and the time needed to make the sustainable approach work. But there's no doubt that with the emergence of promising youths like Dozzell, Nydam and Downes and the transfer value we'd accumulated with Waghorn, Webster, Bart and others that we'd created a very good platform by that stage.
Obviously we weren't performing to the level that we wanted but there was a context for this that seemed to be ignored totally. So much so that this platform was scrapped by Hurst (and to an extent Evans as his boss) without people really registering. Because people were negatively obsessed with Mick as the problem by then, rather than a positive. |
The scrapping of the platform shows how little care Evans was taking given that it was the platform he had laid out - albeit in vague form - i.e the new manager has a decent first team squad in place, we will look to add to it with select signings and try to give our Academy products sustained time in the squad so that we can build.
Hurst arrived and promptly sold the quality in the first team while simultaneously rubbishing those who were left, signed a load of players who weren’t up to it and packed off numerous Academy boys while bringing in loans who had played less games than our Academy products. By the time Evans intervenes, it’s got away from him and the decline is in place.
Now he has someone who is less destructive but on current evidence lacks any clear idea of what he wants his team to do. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 14:46 - Jul 29 with 4166 views | Darth_Koont |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 14:35 - Jul 29 by patrickswell |
The scrapping of the platform shows how little care Evans was taking given that it was the platform he had laid out - albeit in vague form - i.e the new manager has a decent first team squad in place, we will look to add to it with select signings and try to give our Academy products sustained time in the squad so that we can build.
Hurst arrived and promptly sold the quality in the first team while simultaneously rubbishing those who were left, signed a load of players who weren’t up to it and packed off numerous Academy boys while bringing in loans who had played less games than our Academy products. By the time Evans intervenes, it’s got away from him and the decline is in place.
Now he has someone who is less destructive but on current evidence lacks any clear idea of what he wants his team to do. |
Agreed.
At the time, I thought it must be something like Hurst seeing a tactical opening and that by changing the approach in favour of mid-20s athletes we were going to see some second-tier version of Klopp's high press.
But nothing like that happened and we just bloated the squad with the sort of over-priced lower-league players we'd spent much of the previous years trying to avoid.
It didn't just lead to relegation but in one fell swoop it wasted much of the groundwork that was done and the sacrifices made in the years before. And left a situation where we need a better manager than Lambert (or at least Lambert to show he can learn and adapt) in order to turn it around. In the third effing tier too!! | |
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 15:01 - Jul 29 with 4142 views | PhilTWTD |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:46 - Jul 29 by Darth_Koont |
I certainly think there was a refusal to be objective about the context Mick was working in and where we really were in the football pyramid by then.
That's the downside of the subjective passion fans have for their clubs but even a half-way sensible appreciation of our, Mick's and the team's position could have transformed the narrative into a much more respectful and united front. Which I think would have made everyone feel better, may well have helped on the pitch and put the real pressure on Evans if anyone.
I still have no idea what people were really expecting while Mick was here and with him leaving. As pointed out earlier in the thread, it seems Brexitesque. [Post edited 29 Jul 2020 13:47]
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It did take a while for it to be accepted that the division was changing and we were among its poorer relations but I'm not convinced that MM would have looked to foster a 'we're all in it together' mood. Think he aimed for an us and them mentality, the players and staff against the rest approach, from the off with fans and local media on the outside.
I'm not sure I take the Brexit point, wasn't really about looking for an idealistic 'promised land' was more akin to toppling an unpopular leader! | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 15:22 - Jul 29 with 4105 views | PJH |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 15:01 - Jul 29 by PhilTWTD |
It did take a while for it to be accepted that the division was changing and we were among its poorer relations but I'm not convinced that MM would have looked to foster a 'we're all in it together' mood. Think he aimed for an us and them mentality, the players and staff against the rest approach, from the off with fans and local media on the outside.
I'm not sure I take the Brexit point, wasn't really about looking for an idealistic 'promised land' was more akin to toppling an unpopular leader! |
Although as proved by Waggy's piece today he was certainly not unpopular with the people that he was actually leading.
I think in 2014/15 and probably before we WERE all in it together, including fans.
I think that was shown at the final whistle in Norfolk in the playoffs.
You are no doubt right about the media but I don't think MM excluded the fans initially and not until in his mind he had reason to because of the way some turned against him and his players. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 15:28 - Jul 29 with 4088 views | PhilTWTD |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 15:22 - Jul 29 by PJH |
Although as proved by Waggy's piece today he was certainly not unpopular with the people that he was actually leading.
I think in 2014/15 and probably before we WERE all in it together, including fans.
I think that was shown at the final whistle in Norfolk in the playoffs.
You are no doubt right about the media but I don't think MM excluded the fans initially and not until in his mind he had reason to because of the way some turned against him and his players. |
Yes, MM was popular with the players and the staff right up until the end. But I think that was where he drew the line, whether the fans were with him didn't particularly bother him until the end when he realised it was having an impact on the players. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 15:35 - Jul 29 with 4076 views | itfcjoe |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 11:46 - Jul 29 by PhilTWTD |
But equally MM played a big part in the breakdown of the relationship. I think many fans - even many of those that sided with him on some matters - felt he was disrespectful and behaved in a manner not befitting a Town manager. |
Evans should have managed it far better for a long time before that - even early in the season after good wins we had Mick coming out giving it back to give the 'numbskulls' something to moan about - Forest at home was one such game |  |
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 15:37 - Jul 29 with 4069 views | Coco |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:32 - Jul 29 by PhilTWTD |
I'm sure we will, might take us until we're in the Championship again to attract someone with his sort of CV though. |
But the greatest ITFC managers had no CV whatsoever before taking the role. It's not the CV it's the 'fit'. Chris Wilder at Sheff Utd for example. |  |
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 15:38 - Jul 29 with 4069 views | itfcjoe |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 13:21 - Jul 29 by PhilTWTD |
Perhaps, but if it's not much fun to watch and the manager comes across in a surley manner, implying he doesn't give a flying one about supporters, I'm not sure it's too surprising that fans will make their thoughts known and clamour for something different.
The likes of Chris Sutton and others in the wider media never really got what the McCarthy situation was about. They thought it was a frustration about results and being in mid-table year after year, when that wasn't really the crux of the matter, character and style were the main issues.
Obviously wrong decisions have been made - several of them - since MM's departure but his exit hasn't been the issue, that needed to happen for the good of the club given the impact his rift with fans was having. |
I've said before, that Mick was very good at getting an Us vs Them mentaility, however whilst in 14/15 when things were going well the fanbase was very much seen as part of 'Us', by the end it was clear that the whole fanbase was seen as 'Them' | |
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| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 15:39 - Jul 29 with 4065 views | PhilTWTD |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 15:35 - Jul 29 by itfcjoe |
Evans should have managed it far better for a long time before that - even early in the season after good wins we had Mick coming out giving it back to give the 'numbskulls' something to moan about - Forest at home was one such game |
Certainly think the relationship should have been managed better by the club - and I think things were already too far gone before that season started - but I'm not sure anyone felt able to challenge MM when it came to dealing with the media/general public relations. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 15:41 - Jul 29 with 4058 views | PhilTWTD |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 15:37 - Jul 29 by Coco |
But the greatest ITFC managers had no CV whatsoever before taking the role. It's not the CV it's the 'fit'. Chris Wilder at Sheff Utd for example. |
Certainly agree with that, and I'd like us to be a club where a manager develops and builds his reputation again. | | | |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 15:45 - Jul 29 with 4049 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The pivotal time in the history of a club on 10:43 - Jul 29 by homer_123 |
Hurst was allowed to decimate a more than half decent squad....who allowed that to happen? |
The best thing about that is the guy who signed off on all the deals that allowed Hurst to dismantle the team, later came out and said he was surprised that it was such a big change.
Peak bantz. |  |
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