| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... 08:14 - Apr 19 with 4373 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
All those Labour types banging on and on about a second referendum. If only Corbyn had been allowed to go with his 7 out of 10 gut!! Each and every time Labour supporters shouted "yeah but you're all thick, Referendum2"....drip...drip...drip!
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/19/labour-will-never-govern-unless
"Healey pointed to the fact that Labour lost 87 seats to the Conservatives in the 2010 election, and eight more in 2015. Of these, 83 areas went on to support Brexit in the 2016 referendum. Brexit was, he said, “both an effect of this dislocation and a cause of further disillusion” |  |
| |  |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 11:30 - Apr 19 with 973 views | noggin |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 11:21 - Apr 19 by Darth_Koont |
Yorkshire Tea, innit?
Grown on the sunny uplands of a Rotherham slag heap. |
Aaaah, Rotherham and slags. TWTD. |  |
| |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 11:50 - Apr 19 with 943 views | lowhouseblue |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:11 - Apr 19 by Herbivore |
The majority of Labour voters were pro-remain. Had Labour wholeheartedly supported Brexit they'd have lost just as many seats in other areas and would still have lost most of the red wall because the voters in those areas disliked Corbyn.
What Labour really should have done was not given into Corbyn's hubris and agreed to a GE in 2019. The Tories had no majority and nowhere to go. Corbyn took his foot off their neck and enabled them to fight a GE campaign purely along the lines of Brexit where Labour were weak and the Tories were strong. He handed them an 80 seat majority on a plate like an absolute mug. [Post edited 19 Apr 2021 9:11]
|
the majority of labour voters being pro-remain in 2017 and 2019 is obviously somewhat after the horse had bolted. it then reflected how the party had positioned itself after the referendum result - and pro-leave voters had moved away from it. 64% of labour constituencies in 2015 had a leave majority in the referendum. that's a better measure of how the party's traditional vote split. but the point is of course that it was split. on a hugely divisive issue the party found it impossible to decide where to go. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 14:57 - Apr 19 with 887 views | HARRY10 |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:28 - Apr 19 by Lord_Lucan |
Yes I 100% do.
I think it was cringeworthy the way anyone who expressed an opinion of voting out was vilified and it still happens, not least on here.
It was childish and abusive and I think that a huge amount of people were swayed because of what they were reading and seeing.
In fact I would say that it was an absolutely massive thing. No one was listening!!!
What is it you hipsters say?
Own you're own sh1t Motherfeckers*
*I added Motherfeckers for dramatic affect and I also like saying it. |
What and is, being vilified is the cretinous bleats they used to justify voting to leave.
One of the defining aspects of the brexit campaign, and since has been brexiteers blunt refusal to engage in any form of reasoned debate - instead relying upon vacuous slogans.
And a check on how many Labour supporters voted BNP some while back might suggest the causes run far deeper than what the OP is bleating about |  | | |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:04 - Apr 19 with 878 views | jeera |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:44 - Apr 19 by chicoazul |
They were sticking their fingers up at 40 years of neoliberalism globalisation being told they were stupid and racist and seeing their jobs communities and lives destroyed. |
An awful lot of investment has left the country and many businesses are struggling already.
This shouldn't be overlooked anytime this subject comes up.
These were points that were raised time and again and were ignored repeatedly.
The honest truth is [most] people didn't know what they were voting for. I don't know why that's hard for anyone to admit when it's as clear as day. |  |
| |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 15:06 - Apr 19 with 870 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:37 - Apr 19 by noggin |
I still, to this day, don't understand why the British people wanted to leave the EU. |
| |
| |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:10 - Apr 19 with 862 views | HARRY10 |
"They were sticking their fingers up at 40 years of neoliberalism globalisation .......... and seeing their jobs communities and lives destroyed. "
So they voted for politicians who were responsible for that, and were hell bent on continuing with that way of doing things
Did someone mention the word thick ? | | | |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:19 - Apr 19 with 854 views | Herbivore |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:04 - Apr 19 by jeera |
An awful lot of investment has left the country and many businesses are struggling already.
This shouldn't be overlooked anytime this subject comes up.
These were points that were raised time and again and were ignored repeatedly.
The honest truth is [most] people didn't know what they were voting for. I don't know why that's hard for anyone to admit when it's as clear as day. |
It didn't help that most of the campaigning seemed to be designed to keep the electorate in the dark and pacify them with populist slogans rather than trying to actually inform them. This is the problem when you have a gutter press and gutter politicians, it's all lowest common denominator stuff over genuine political debate. Brexit was sold on the basis that we'd still have all the benefits of single market access and unfettered free trade but without having foreigners coming in and taking our jobs (jobs, it turns out, we can't fill without them) and with us trousering £350m per week to spend on the NHS instead. Happy days.
Now many of us could see that was a load of have your cake and eat it b0llocks, but for many people they wanted to buy it as it provided easy answers and the illusion of quick wins. If you pointed out that it was b0llocks and encouraged people to look at the snake oil salesmen involved in pitching it, you were accused of engaging in project fear and told that we hold all the cards, German car manufacturers etc., etc. Given that nobody on the leave side ever outlined a clear vision of what our relationship with the EU would look like - Farage had previously talked up the Norway model - the reality is that those who voted leave had no idea what they were voting for.
Even those who championed leaving didn't think it'd actually happen, which is why we've been so woefully prepared for it. Johnson picked a team last minute on the basis of what would most further his career and he never reckoned on leave actually winning. After failing as Foreign Secretary he quietly disappeared and left May and her team to do most of the graft for him. Even Farage the very next morning backtracked on the bus promises and I've never seen someone look more crestfallen to have fulfilled their lifelong goal than he did. He was banking on a narrow defeat that would enable him to keep his snout in the trough whilst pushing for a second referendum.
The whole thing is a clusterf**k. It was sold to people by offering them easy answers that played to their base instincts and it was done by a bunch of careerist halfwits with no scruples among them. It's been massively divisive for the country and when you look back at polling from 10 years ago hardly anyone gave a toss about the EU or leaving it, aside from the loony right of the Tory party and swivel-eyed Nige. F**k the lot of them. [Post edited 19 Apr 2021 15:23]
|  |
| |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:22 - Apr 19 with 848 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:49 - Apr 19 by m14_blue |
Maybe they just realised what a disaster Brexit would be for the country and, in particular, the poorest people in it, and were trying to do what they considered was right?
I thought you were all about actual policies designed to do good rather than populist nonsense based on chasing votes from the lowest common denominator? |
Nah fairly sure they were thinking about second homes abroad, doggy passports,Erasmus jaunts for Tristan and Sophie and cheap cleaners and au pairs. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:25 - Apr 19 with 845 views | HARRY10 |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:22 - Apr 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Nah fairly sure they were thinking about second homes abroad, doggy passports,Erasmus jaunts for Tristan and Sophie and cheap cleaners and au pairs. |
It's almost as if the Daily Mail is among us with so many vacuous clichés being spouted | | | |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:27 - Apr 19 with 837 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:58 - Apr 19 by Clapham_Junction |
He's a disaster socialist - quite happy for Brexit to happen and the UK to turn into a hard-right capitalist country in the belief that in the long-run it will end up with people turning against the Tories. |
In the absence of any real meaningful reform then I'll take that! Not plan A but better than nothing/more of the same. | |
| |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:32 - Apr 19 with 829 views | Herbivore |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:27 - Apr 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
In the absence of any real meaningful reform then I'll take that! Not plan A but better than nothing/more of the same. |
But it's not going to happen. All you've done is condemn the worst off in society to more years of hardship under the Tories. We're going to see erosions of workers' rights and continuation of austerity to plug the massive gaps in public finances created by Brexit and Covid. All the while the wealthy will continue to get wealthier and will continue to find new bogeyman to blame for society's ills. Not everyone can afford your ideological purity, mate. | |
| |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:35 - Apr 19 with 826 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 14:57 - Apr 19 by HARRY10 |
What and is, being vilified is the cretinous bleats they used to justify voting to leave.
One of the defining aspects of the brexit campaign, and since has been brexiteers blunt refusal to engage in any form of reasoned debate - instead relying upon vacuous slogans.
And a check on how many Labour supporters voted BNP some while back might suggest the causes run far deeper than what the OP is bleating about |
Baaa! | |
| |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:36 - Apr 19 with 824 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:04 - Apr 19 by jeera |
An awful lot of investment has left the country and many businesses are struggling already.
This shouldn't be overlooked anytime this subject comes up.
These were points that were raised time and again and were ignored repeatedly.
The honest truth is [most] people didn't know what they were voting for. I don't know why that's hard for anyone to admit when it's as clear as day. |
All true. | |
| |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:37 - Apr 19 with 820 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:10 - Apr 19 by HARRY10 |
"They were sticking their fingers up at 40 years of neoliberalism globalisation .......... and seeing their jobs communities and lives destroyed. "
So they voted for politicians who were responsible for that, and were hell bent on continuing with that way of doing things
Did someone mention the word thick ? |
Was Blair an option? | |
| |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:40 - Apr 19 with 817 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:25 - Apr 19 by HARRY10 |
It's almost as if the Daily Mail is among us with so many vacuous clichés being spouted |
Class War wasn't It!! | |
| |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:45 - Apr 19 with 804 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:32 - Apr 19 by Herbivore |
But it's not going to happen. All you've done is condemn the worst off in society to more years of hardship under the Tories. We're going to see erosions of workers' rights and continuation of austerity to plug the massive gaps in public finances created by Brexit and Covid. All the while the wealthy will continue to get wealthier and will continue to find new bogeyman to blame for society's ills. Not everyone can afford your ideological purity, mate. |
Well Herbs...having been waiting around politically from the late 70's it has been a long wait already....sometimes you just have to destroy stuff in order to properly rebuild it. | |
| |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:56 - Apr 19 with 793 views | HARRY10 |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:45 - Apr 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Well Herbs...having been waiting around politically from the late 70's it has been a long wait already....sometimes you just have to destroy stuff in order to properly rebuild it. |
sometimes you don't | | | |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:59 - Apr 19 with 786 views | Herbivore |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:45 - Apr 19 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Well Herbs...having been waiting around politically from the late 70's it has been a long wait already....sometimes you just have to destroy stuff in order to properly rebuild it. |
All that's being destroyed is the lives of the worst off in society though, that's the problem. I'm a Marxist but I'm also a pragmatist. We're nowhere near any kind of revolution or overthrowing capitalism, sadly, and whilst that's a real shame in the real world pragmatically I'll support decisions that help protect workers' rights and that don't leave the worst off in society even worse off. | |
| |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 17:11 - Apr 22 with 636 views | tractordownsouth |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 09:11 - Apr 19 by Herbivore |
The majority of Labour voters were pro-remain. Had Labour wholeheartedly supported Brexit they'd have lost just as many seats in other areas and would still have lost most of the red wall because the voters in those areas disliked Corbyn.
What Labour really should have done was not given into Corbyn's hubris and agreed to a GE in 2019. The Tories had no majority and nowhere to go. Corbyn took his foot off their neck and enabled them to fight a GE campaign purely along the lines of Brexit where Labour were weak and the Tories were strong. He handed them an 80 seat majority on a plate like an absolute mug. [Post edited 19 Apr 2021 9:11]
|
With a great deal of hindsight, I'd argue that the even bigger mistake was Labour voting down May's deal. It was rubbish but still included far more protections than Johnson's had and it would have continued the Tory civil war. Farage would be eating into their vote claiming it wasn't a real Brexit, while Labour could credibly argue that they'd respected the will of the people. And with Brexit officially done, the Lib Dems wouldn't have been a threat because (like now) the rejoin position wouldn't have got much traction.
Then if the Tories still wanted a General Election (which they probably wouldn't have by this point) it would've been fought on issues like public services, where Labour does better, rather than a second referendum culture war with FPTP putting the odds firmly in the Tories' favour. Labour still wouldn't have won because of Corbyn and his unpopularity, but I think it could've been in hung parliament territory, which is better than the sh1t show we have now. [Post edited 22 Apr 2021 17:13]
|  |
| |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 17:17 - Apr 22 with 626 views | HARRY10 |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 11:23 - Apr 19 by BlueForYou |
You're never going to win an election with Corbyn & Abbott involved. !! |
yes, knocked back every time they stood as an MP
perhaps they would have done better to have asked Mr Farage how it is done | | | |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 17:20 - Apr 22 with 620 views | Herbivore |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 17:11 - Apr 22 by tractordownsouth |
With a great deal of hindsight, I'd argue that the even bigger mistake was Labour voting down May's deal. It was rubbish but still included far more protections than Johnson's had and it would have continued the Tory civil war. Farage would be eating into their vote claiming it wasn't a real Brexit, while Labour could credibly argue that they'd respected the will of the people. And with Brexit officially done, the Lib Dems wouldn't have been a threat because (like now) the rejoin position wouldn't have got much traction.
Then if the Tories still wanted a General Election (which they probably wouldn't have by this point) it would've been fought on issues like public services, where Labour does better, rather than a second referendum culture war with FPTP putting the odds firmly in the Tories' favour. Labour still wouldn't have won because of Corbyn and his unpopularity, but I think it could've been in hung parliament territory, which is better than the sh1t show we have now. [Post edited 22 Apr 2021 17:13]
|
If they weren't going to wholeheartedly get behind resolving Brexit via a second referendum then what you suggest would have been a better solution than fudging their Brexit position for 2 years, losing both leavers and remainers in the process, before then agreeing to a GE that became a proxy referendum with a fractured remain vote versus a unified leave vote. Complete lack of savvy from the leadership right the way through. | |
| |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 17:37 - Apr 22 with 606 views | J2BLUE |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 15:59 - Apr 19 by Herbivore |
All that's being destroyed is the lives of the worst off in society though, that's the problem. I'm a Marxist but I'm also a pragmatist. We're nowhere near any kind of revolution or overthrowing capitalism, sadly, and whilst that's a real shame in the real world pragmatically I'll support decisions that help protect workers' rights and that don't leave the worst off in society even worse off. |
Good post. Compromises need to be made. That much is clear. We aren't going to go from the Tories straight to someone like Corbyn. |  |
| |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 18:11 - Apr 22 with 591 views | HARRY10 |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 17:37 - Apr 22 by J2BLUE |
Good post. Compromises need to be made. That much is clear. We aren't going to go from the Tories straight to someone like Corbyn. |
The concern still is why do so many feel that cynical liars like Johnson and Trump represent their own values | | | |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 18:27 - Apr 22 with 576 views | townblue |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 10:32 - Apr 19 by Herbivore |
Disagree. This is just you expressing that you found the attitude of some remainers distasteful. The idea that if they'd stayed quiet a bunch of leave voters would have actually voted remain seems rather fanciful.
The people who need to own their sh!t are the ones who voted for a pack of lies peddled by duplicitous motherfeckers. |
I think if the debate had not become so polarised and vitriolic a large number would not have bothered to vote at all. The more it because us Vs them it pushed the numbers over the line.
It was fine margins so any factor that affected the vote could have been defining. |  | | |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 18:37 - Apr 22 with 563 views | Herbivore |
| What really lost the country to Toryism imho.... on 18:27 - Apr 22 by townblue |
I think if the debate had not become so polarised and vitriolic a large number would not have bothered to vote at all. The more it because us Vs them it pushed the numbers over the line.
It was fine margins so any factor that affected the vote could have been defining. |
I agree, the leave campaign was really vitriolic. Some of the very nasty anti-immigration and anti-EU rhetoric being used to whip people up into a frenzy, often based on lies and half truths, was outrageous. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
