| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. 18:16 - Sep 9 with 12881 views | Paddy39 |
We should have a minutes silence on Saturday to remember 9-11. Many English people lost their lives in the twin towers that day as well. 20yrs ago. |  |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:04 - Sep 10 with 1599 views | Herbivore |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 09:58 - Sep 10 by Keaneish |
Yeah I saw this. This was recent, we’re commenting on 2001. At that point in time, it had never happened, yet three all happened in the space of 8 hours. |
And others have happened since, which shows that whilst it's not something that happens often it is not, as the sceptics suggest, impossible or even hugely unlikely. Add in that the three buildings on 9/11 had also sustained significant damage from the impact of planes and debris. I'm not really sure what's meant to be so far fetched about what happened. [Post edited 10 Sep 2021 10:05]
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:04 - Sep 10 with 1594 views | Keaneish |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 09:29 - Sep 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You haven't disproved the science as far as I can see, and there is far more detail over many more allegations than you have addressed. The article tackles known conspiracy theories (hence the “conspiracy this, conspiracy that..” narrative) and gives logical scientific explanations for each one - and with citations. A lot of what you've posted isn't.
You've also failed to address that me and Herbs have - in seconds - found TWO buildings which have collapsed due to a fire. I like how you just ignore that bit and then throw in some nonsense about me getting emotional to further deflect. |
I’m not saying my point disproved science am I? I’m saying that the points need disproving and further examination as they as have not been resolved by the NIST, largely ignored in fact.
To your other point, we could keep trading link shares and sources all day and going down the rabbit hole but there’s little use to that. My point is what I’ve posted, there’s still too much conjecture given 35,000 engineers have supported the 9/11 truth investigation and the NIST have been found wanting in more areas than just this.
Not sure how this turned into a debate about me needing to prove anything to anyone. The NIST have failed, that’s the point. |  |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:04 - Sep 10 with 1598 views | MerseyBlue |
I don't know if we in particular should hold a minute's silence due to our newfound American connection, however, I think you could make a case that there should be a minute's silence across all sporting fixtures.
This was an awful and monumental event that continues to shape the 21st century. It's often portrayed as one terrible day for America in isolation but in reality it was simultaneously the culmination of decades of geopolitical posturing, and the launchpad for so many other problems we all now face.
3000 deaths directly from the attacks. Thousands of allied troops killed in operations. Tens of thousands more allied troops and veterans who have taken their own lives over the course of the last twenty years. Hundreds of thousands of civillians killed in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen and Pakistan. Horrific human rights abuses both in the warzone, and at Guantanamo Bay. The rise of Islamophobia. The trillions of dollars poured down the drain.
Look at the news today - MI5 suggesting that extremists will be emboldened by the successful coup, and that our chances of suffering a large-scale terror attack in the years to come will in all likelihood increase. I don't doubt that they're right. It won't happen immediately, but it will happen at some point. |  |
| "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." | | Poll: | Who will be the winner? |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:04 - Sep 10 with 1599 views | blueasfook |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 09:42 - Sep 10 by Tangledupin_Blue |
IMO we should not hold a minutes silence for an event which happened 20 years ago far away in another country.
The minutes silence should be extremely rare else it loses its gravitas.
We might have it when one of our former players dies (Paul Mariner) or for the death of a major national figure (Prince Philip) or for a major national tragedy (Greenfel Tower fire). And, occasionally, for a major international incident such as the 11/9 attacks. Not for any of the anniversaries. |
We still hold a minute's silence for the world wars of the 20th century.
9/11 was a huge event that changed the world forever and led to a 20 year "war on terror". Not enough gravitas for you? |  |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:10 - Sep 10 with 1567 views | bluelagos |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:03 - Sep 10 by Cheltenham_Blue |
True enough. This one just made me angry.
I avoid the telly as much as possible on these kind of 'year' anniversaries. But its impossible to evade it completely. Thank you. |
There's going to be so many triggers the next 24 hours - including my other thread.
My advice (something I sometimes do on Apr 15) is to go for a long all day walk. I don't take a watch, phone so have no idea of the time and just listen to music, think on my own and get the day over with.
Over contemplating / analysing won't do much for you, other than increase your stress. Difficult day for sure. |  |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:12 - Sep 10 with 1562 views | Keaneish |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 09:34 - Sep 10 by Cheltenham_Blue |
As someone who was there on the day, you are talking absolute tosh. I know what I saw.
I saw a 767 hit the corner of WTC2 and I saw body parts on the street. Everyone knows the rest.
I know WTC7 was well ablaze and severely damaged, whether it pancaked or whether it was pulled is irrelevant, no one died in that collapse, it had been evacuated 20 minute earlier.
I don't think we should hold a minutes silence, none of the people I met and became friends with that day would think we in the UK should either. I don't want anyone's pity but I came out of that whole thing with some deep mental scars, and I consider myself lucky on that basis.
But its the lack of empathy from people like yourself I find disgusting. Send me a fully credited, journaled and peer reviewed paper on this science and I'm prepared to engage with you, instead of your armchair studying of the evidence.
But you won't will you? And yes, I am getting emotional. |
Emotion has no value to this discussion topic about contradictory science to the official report. I'll PM you the sources for you to have a read through.
Lack of empathy? It's the opposite. I have empathy which is why i'd like a proper study done and the NIST to look into the evidence gathered since their update in 2005. Too much conjecture means families can never rest, it's not right and its not just. | |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:13 - Sep 10 with 1560 views | bluelagos |
Given it's not yours or mine decision, why worry about it?
If the club choose to hold a minutes silence am sure everyone would respect it. I doubt they will, but it's not the biggest imposition if they do. | |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:14 - Sep 10 with 1555 views | Keaneish |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:04 - Sep 10 by Herbivore |
And others have happened since, which shows that whilst it's not something that happens often it is not, as the sceptics suggest, impossible or even hugely unlikely. Add in that the three buildings on 9/11 had also sustained significant damage from the impact of planes and debris. I'm not really sure what's meant to be so far fetched about what happened. [Post edited 10 Sep 2021 10:05]
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I think we'll see this happen a lot more in truth. Building standards globally are slipping as buildings shoot up at meteoric rates to account for global housing issues. We've experienced issues like this first hand in London at Grenfell, which is desperately sad. | |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:49 - Sep 10 with 1511 views | Keaneish |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:01 - Sep 10 by bluelagos |
"But its the lack of empathy from people like yourself I find disgusting. Send me a fully credited, journaled and peer reviewed paper on this science and I'm prepared to engage with you, instead of your armchair studying of the evidence. "
Of course he won't because there are none. People who fall for conspiracy theories or worse, who peddle them have a desire to feel important, as if they somehow have mastered something the rest of us failed to grasp. Sadly for them they are just regurgitating a pile of made up nonsense as evidenced by the lack of a peer reviewed paper.
I'd challenge you (and others) on one point, why engage with someone like that? You are unlikely to change their mind, but highly likely to get stressed. Idiots are going to idiot unfortunately.
Why give them the debate and authority they desire any more than you would a flat earther?
Trust the next couple of days isn't too stressful for you, sure there will be lots of triggers given the inevitable media coverage. |
Bluelagos, this post is deeply blinkered. Labelling someone a "Conspiracy Theorist" because they don't believe the popular discourse is a really poor stance and shows a lack of foresight in my view.
The ease of which you label people or put them in a box is staggeringly short-sighted and quite arrogant. I'll send you the same source material i just sent Cheltenham_Blue so now its on you to read it and counter. If you do that, then we can have a conversation.
For the record, as this point is laughable, "Sadly for them they are just regurgitating a pile of made up nonsense as evidenced by the lack of a peer reviewed paper." I work for the Economist and work closely with The Economist Intelligence Unit! | |
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| [Redacted] on 11:09 - Sep 10 with 1480 views | victorywilhappen |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:49 - Sep 10 by Keaneish |
Bluelagos, this post is deeply blinkered. Labelling someone a "Conspiracy Theorist" because they don't believe the popular discourse is a really poor stance and shows a lack of foresight in my view.
The ease of which you label people or put them in a box is staggeringly short-sighted and quite arrogant. I'll send you the same source material i just sent Cheltenham_Blue so now its on you to read it and counter. If you do that, then we can have a conversation.
For the record, as this point is laughable, "Sadly for them they are just regurgitating a pile of made up nonsense as evidenced by the lack of a peer reviewed paper." I work for the Economist and work closely with The Economist Intelligence Unit! |
[Redacted] |  | | |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 11:13 - Sep 10 with 1470 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:04 - Sep 10 by blueasfook |
We still hold a minute's silence for the world wars of the 20th century.
9/11 was a huge event that changed the world forever and led to a 20 year "war on terror". Not enough gravitas for you? |
Nationally we have a minutes silence at 11am on 11th November and also at 11am on the nearest Sunday to 11th November. Some of us may also attend other related commemorative events. IMO there should not be any need to have an additional armistice related silence at football matches.
My point about gravitas is less about the seriousness of any specific event and more to do with the dilution of meaning of the minutes silence if the silences were to become more commonplace. We could find some event to commemorate pretty well on any day but if we were to do so then it would become meaningless and we would need to find another way to commemorate armistice day. |  |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 11:20 - Sep 10 with 1455 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:04 - Sep 10 by Keaneish |
I’m not saying my point disproved science am I? I’m saying that the points need disproving and further examination as they as have not been resolved by the NIST, largely ignored in fact.
To your other point, we could keep trading link shares and sources all day and going down the rabbit hole but there’s little use to that. My point is what I’ve posted, there’s still too much conjecture given 35,000 engineers have supported the 9/11 truth investigation and the NIST have been found wanting in more areas than just this.
Not sure how this turned into a debate about me needing to prove anything to anyone. The NIST have failed, that’s the point. |
"Not sure how this turned into a debate about me needing to prove anything to anyone."
Because you came into this thread and offered an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory.
The article linked explains everything as far as I can see.
You've also tried to claim that no buildings have collapsed due to fire - me and Herbs quickly found two - and now you're changing to "up to then." A classic conspiracy theorist tactic - instead of holding your hands up and admitting you were wrong you just shift the narrative so yours still fits. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 11:22 - Sep 10 with 1442 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 11:13 - Sep 10 by Tangledupin_Blue |
Nationally we have a minutes silence at 11am on 11th November and also at 11am on the nearest Sunday to 11th November. Some of us may also attend other related commemorative events. IMO there should not be any need to have an additional armistice related silence at football matches.
My point about gravitas is less about the seriousness of any specific event and more to do with the dilution of meaning of the minutes silence if the silences were to become more commonplace. We could find some event to commemorate pretty well on any day but if we were to do so then it would become meaningless and we would need to find another way to commemorate armistice day. |
We're not finding one on every day though. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 11:23 - Sep 10 with 1439 views | Keaneish |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 11:20 - Sep 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
"Not sure how this turned into a debate about me needing to prove anything to anyone."
Because you came into this thread and offered an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory.
The article linked explains everything as far as I can see.
You've also tried to claim that no buildings have collapsed due to fire - me and Herbs quickly found two - and now you're changing to "up to then." A classic conspiracy theorist tactic - instead of holding your hands up and admitting you were wrong you just shift the narrative so yours still fits. |
..."explains everything as fas as i can see." LOL! That's hilarious.
I'll send you some reading. Let me now if you want the PDF too. You can catch-up with BlueLagos and Cheltenham Blue on a call to debate. 2 books, a web article and a 25 page PDF written by a litany of professors might be a stretch though! | |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 12:45 - Sep 10 with 1369 views | Rob88 |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 22:04 - Sep 9 by Keaneish |
I’m not falling into the trap of suggesting anything. I’m saying that no official scientific report from the NIST since the incident has disproved chemistry and physics to the contrary of their final report. The silence is deafening, deeply disrespectful and flies in the face of all the values that nation upholds. |
What do you think happened that day? Do you not believe that two commercial airliners brought down the towers? |  | | |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 21:08 - Sep 10 with 1261 views | Rob88 |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 11:23 - Sep 10 by Keaneish |
..."explains everything as fas as i can see." LOL! That's hilarious.
I'll send you some reading. Let me now if you want the PDF too. You can catch-up with BlueLagos and Cheltenham Blue on a call to debate. 2 books, a web article and a 25 page PDF written by a litany of professors might be a stretch though! |
You would do better to read up on Leon Festingers theory of cognitive dissonance.
No matter what the evidence says a conspiracy theorist will continue to hang on to the conspiracy. | | | |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 21:45 - Sep 10 with 1232 views | J2BLUE |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 08:45 - Sep 10 by Keaneish |
If you read my post, you’d see I replied saying that article is tosh as it doesn’t have any scientific detail on either side of the debate, it should analyse the science, not the narrative. I’m not running away, ive posted a lot, yet, as ever, there’s lazy article posting and emotional responses surfacing not rooted in any logical scientific argument.
If you’re happy believing WTC 7 sustained free fall collapse nearly 8 hours after the event as debris triggered fires then that’s your discretion. Id argue that’s completely illogical and deeply flawed given no building in the history of architecture has sustained free fall collapse from fire yet three happen simultaneously in the space of 8 hours, the last without any hint of aviation fuel as an incendiary. |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-38675628 |  |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 21:56 - Sep 10 with 1220 views | Keaneish |
I think you need to make the distinction between free fall acceleration and building collapse. This building has toppled and of course buildings collapse - this being a typical example; warping not imploding after fire damage. Columns when at the point of melting warp, they don’t severe.
In the case of the Brazil example that Herbs posted I think, I read the investigation report earlier which said the building was made of concrete, was dilapidated, had no fire safety protection and was laden with wooden make shift shelters for homeless. That one did go into free fall collapse but entirely different to WTC1, 2 and 7 made of fire resistant steel-carbon.
For what it’s worth, I sent all my sources, links and papers to BlueLagos, Flashing Smile and Cheltenham Blue - as of yet, not a sound back after their emotive tirades. Standard. [Post edited 10 Sep 2021 22:01]
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 22:03 - Sep 10 with 1213 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 21:56 - Sep 10 by Keaneish |
I think you need to make the distinction between free fall acceleration and building collapse. This building has toppled and of course buildings collapse - this being a typical example; warping not imploding after fire damage. Columns when at the point of melting warp, they don’t severe.
In the case of the Brazil example that Herbs posted I think, I read the investigation report earlier which said the building was made of concrete, was dilapidated, had no fire safety protection and was laden with wooden make shift shelters for homeless. That one did go into free fall collapse but entirely different to WTC1, 2 and 7 made of fire resistant steel-carbon.
For what it’s worth, I sent all my sources, links and papers to BlueLagos, Flashing Smile and Cheltenham Blue - as of yet, not a sound back after their emotive tirades. Standard. [Post edited 10 Sep 2021 22:01]
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To be fair on them, give them a chance to look at them. I would ask to see them if I wasn't too busy to respond.
Ultimately, science cannot explain everything without time to evaluate all evidence presented. I am quite sure that if there were genuine concerns, there would be highly creditable engineering and scientific groups onto it. I am not sure what the qualifications of those you are relying on are.
If the collapse was not as a result of the planes hitting the towers - acts that were shown on multiple TV news reports from multiple cameras within hours of the events (would require huge numbers of very difficult to control people to be "in on" the conspiracy), another explanation is needed. This would be a conspiracy unless you are simply stating we don't fully understand the engineering and science of why the impact of the planes played out as it clearly did. |  |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 22:06 - Sep 10 with 1208 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 09:34 - Sep 10 by Cheltenham_Blue |
As someone who was there on the day, you are talking absolute tosh. I know what I saw.
I saw a 767 hit the corner of WTC2 and I saw body parts on the street. Everyone knows the rest.
I know WTC7 was well ablaze and severely damaged, whether it pancaked or whether it was pulled is irrelevant, no one died in that collapse, it had been evacuated 20 minute earlier.
I don't think we should hold a minutes silence, none of the people I met and became friends with that day would think we in the UK should either. I don't want anyone's pity but I came out of that whole thing with some deep mental scars, and I consider myself lucky on that basis.
But its the lack of empathy from people like yourself I find disgusting. Send me a fully credited, journaled and peer reviewed paper on this science and I'm prepared to engage with you, instead of your armchair studying of the evidence.
But you won't will you? And yes, I am getting emotional. |
My sincere condolences to you. All of us were affected and shocked by what happened that day. It is unimaginable what it must have been like to be there.
I showed a clip of Giuliani talking about the day to my form group at school earlier this week (clearly none of them had been born when it happened). They were silent for the rest of the time we were together that morning.
I agree we don't need a silence. I would also have no issue with if one was held. | |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 22:51 - Sep 10 with 1165 views | Herbivore |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 21:56 - Sep 10 by Keaneish |
I think you need to make the distinction between free fall acceleration and building collapse. This building has toppled and of course buildings collapse - this being a typical example; warping not imploding after fire damage. Columns when at the point of melting warp, they don’t severe.
In the case of the Brazil example that Herbs posted I think, I read the investigation report earlier which said the building was made of concrete, was dilapidated, had no fire safety protection and was laden with wooden make shift shelters for homeless. That one did go into free fall collapse but entirely different to WTC1, 2 and 7 made of fire resistant steel-carbon.
For what it’s worth, I sent all my sources, links and papers to BlueLagos, Flashing Smile and Cheltenham Blue - as of yet, not a sound back after their emotive tirades. Standard. [Post edited 10 Sep 2021 22:01]
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I don't think you really understand what you're talking about, mate. | |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 23:28 - Sep 10 with 1143 views | eireblue |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 09:20 - Sep 10 by Keaneish |
Er…
If you read all my posts, they are the points which contradict that article. And, as I’ve said, that article doesn’t present a balanced argument which makes it completely one-sided and quite frankly, sh*t. Look at the way the title completes sets up its position, “conspiracy this, conspiracy that..”
Disprove the science, that’s the point - the NIST fell woefully short of even putting the right data into their modelling.
I see you’re getting emotional. Maybe do some more research on this rather than relying on supposition that debris can cause a building to collapse into its own footprint!! |
Here is the report.
https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/NCSTAR/ncstar1a.pdf
The model was independently run and verified by a U.K. university.
Feel free to tell us the page numbers and paragraphs in the NIST report that are wrong and why.
Then applying Occam’s razor, provide a better scientific explanation. [Post edited 10 Sep 2021 23:45]
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 23:33 - Sep 10 with 1132 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 21:56 - Sep 10 by Keaneish |
I think you need to make the distinction between free fall acceleration and building collapse. This building has toppled and of course buildings collapse - this being a typical example; warping not imploding after fire damage. Columns when at the point of melting warp, they don’t severe.
In the case of the Brazil example that Herbs posted I think, I read the investigation report earlier which said the building was made of concrete, was dilapidated, had no fire safety protection and was laden with wooden make shift shelters for homeless. That one did go into free fall collapse but entirely different to WTC1, 2 and 7 made of fire resistant steel-carbon.
For what it’s worth, I sent all my sources, links and papers to BlueLagos, Flashing Smile and Cheltenham Blue - as of yet, not a sound back after their emotive tirades. Standard. [Post edited 10 Sep 2021 22:01]
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It might be the way that you demanded "Now do the reading," or the fact that I'm moving home on Monday, have been packing all day, and went to a comedy gig tonight, which prevented me reading your many unsolicited links!
And when I see one of your sources is "Daniel Farnsworth - Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, Berkeley, CA 94704" then I do wonder how credible/biased they are. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 23:42 - Sep 10 with 1128 views | eireblue |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 10:04 - Sep 10 by Keaneish |
I’m not saying my point disproved science am I? I’m saying that the points need disproving and further examination as they as have not been resolved by the NIST, largely ignored in fact.
To your other point, we could keep trading link shares and sources all day and going down the rabbit hole but there’s little use to that. My point is what I’ve posted, there’s still too much conjecture given 35,000 engineers have supported the 9/11 truth investigation and the NIST have been found wanting in more areas than just this.
Not sure how this turned into a debate about me needing to prove anything to anyone. The NIST have failed, that’s the point. |
There are not 35,000 engineers who hold that view.
There was a list, that people could subscribe to, to support Richard Gage and his Engineers and Architects search for truth.
For a time it was public domain, the whole list.
I posted some of the entries from that list on this forum once.
Quite a lot of university students were having a laugh, e.g. people from the University of Life, plenty of people did not have a degree, plenty were studying degrees that were irrelevant, e.g. Marine Studies, is one I recall.
On his site now, you should note two things. The list is no longer public.
The only claim is circa 3,000 scientists, and cira 30,000 members of the public have signed a petition for an independent investigation.
Be amusing if the students from the University of Life and Marine biologists are still amongst the 3,000 “scientists”. [Post edited 10 Sep 2021 23:44]
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| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 00:23 - Sep 11 with 1090 views | eireblue |
| Remembering 9-11 with our American owners. on 21:56 - Sep 10 by Keaneish |
I think you need to make the distinction between free fall acceleration and building collapse. This building has toppled and of course buildings collapse - this being a typical example; warping not imploding after fire damage. Columns when at the point of melting warp, they don’t severe.
In the case of the Brazil example that Herbs posted I think, I read the investigation report earlier which said the building was made of concrete, was dilapidated, had no fire safety protection and was laden with wooden make shift shelters for homeless. That one did go into free fall collapse but entirely different to WTC1, 2 and 7 made of fire resistant steel-carbon.
For what it’s worth, I sent all my sources, links and papers to BlueLagos, Flashing Smile and Cheltenham Blue - as of yet, not a sound back after their emotive tirades. Standard. [Post edited 10 Sep 2021 22:01]
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Oh don’t be so shy, share it with us all.
And your precise critique of the NIST report as well, of course.
I can see you have an expectation of a response time for people to respond back to you. | | | |
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