| Starmer.... 09:45 - Sep 26 with 10286 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
#waffle
#blowinginthewind |  |
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| Starmer.... on 12:12 - Sep 27 with 1156 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer.... on 11:36 - Sep 27 by BlueBadger |
Ah, the old 'if you hate bigots and bullies that makes you one' fallacy that thickos like to trot out to justify their support for bigots. |
You caught up yet?
At least we can agree that Starmer was saying the right things back then. |  |
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| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 12:13 - Sep 27 with 1152 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 10:59 - Sep 27 by Darth_Koont |
I wouldn’t say that’s Starmer’s motivation. Or certainly not his driving force. But yeah, there are elements of that and for those around him and of Labour right MPs of shoring up the left side of the establishment and getting paid.
Look what happened to the Change UK lot, plus John Mann, Ian Austin and Tom Watson. Pretty clear that we’re not talking heartfelt progressives here by and large. |
"Shoring up the left of the establishment and getting paid". Getting paid for what, exactly? Something presumably above and beyond the MP's salary - spill the beans DK.
If you have an establishment beef (and who doesn't?) then at least address the point rather than dress it up as an attack on elements of the Labour Party that you don't agree with. All parliamentary parties are part of the establishment that's how the system works. And you won't change the system by sitting in an ever decreasing party of righteousness on the opposition benches.
Smash the system (SWP may be the way to go on that front) or do what is necessary to take even small steps towards reform. |  |
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| Starmer.... on 12:23 - Sep 27 with 1133 views | Timefliesbyintheblue |
| Starmer.... on 11:36 - Sep 27 by BlueBadger |
Ah, the old 'if you hate bigots and bullies that makes you one' fallacy that thickos like to trot out to justify their support for bigots. |
It isn't difficult BB - let me try and spell it out;
Your continued name calling and views on those that chose to vote for Brexit is by definition bigotry.
Not sure where you got the line from about me thinking that if you hate bigots you must be one!
In my world we just need to be kinder to one another and show more respect for those of differing Brexit views. |  | | |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 12:29 - Sep 27 with 1121 views | positivity |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 12:09 - Sep 27 by Darth_Koont |
Pretty much all of it. I think you’re wanting to go down the same path as the Tories just a little slower and less dangerously.
But we need a change/reversal of the direction. IMO.
And to be honest, I think your specific arguments and your ire are best left for LibDem supporters. |
utter nonsense, i'm afraid
a year of starmer/rayner would make far more positive difference to this country than 100 years of corbyn's socialist worker platitudes i opposition.
corbyn has definitely lied, to suggest anything else of any human is putting them on an impossible pedestal, you sound like trump's rabid fans.
if you're working to undermine the progressive opposition to boris, you're enabling him. a dangerous game to play, the same game that led to 4 years of trump and unmitigated disaster. | |
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| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 12:34 - Sep 27 with 1117 views | Darth_Koont |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 12:13 - Sep 27 by You_Bloo_Right |
"Shoring up the left of the establishment and getting paid". Getting paid for what, exactly? Something presumably above and beyond the MP's salary - spill the beans DK.
If you have an establishment beef (and who doesn't?) then at least address the point rather than dress it up as an attack on elements of the Labour Party that you don't agree with. All parliamentary parties are part of the establishment that's how the system works. And you won't change the system by sitting in an ever decreasing party of righteousness on the opposition benches.
Smash the system (SWP may be the way to go on that front) or do what is necessary to take even small steps towards reform. |
I have spilt the beans. I think far too many politicians in the major parties are out after a career where power and influence and the fairly occasional backhander/donation are commodities they can sell. During and after their parliamentary or cabinet career.
That’s why only policies matter. Not power for its own sake which quickly turns to self-interest.
Change from within or change from without, I don’t mind. But Labour under Starmer are part of the problem not the solution. | |
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| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 13:32 - Sep 27 with 1073 views | positivity |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 12:34 - Sep 27 by Darth_Koont |
I have spilt the beans. I think far too many politicians in the major parties are out after a career where power and influence and the fairly occasional backhander/donation are commodities they can sell. During and after their parliamentary or cabinet career.
That’s why only policies matter. Not power for its own sake which quickly turns to self-interest.
Change from within or change from without, I don’t mind. But Labour under Starmer are part of the problem not the solution. |
policies without power are worth precisely nothing in terms of bettering people's lives.
if you're trying to smear starmer (highly successful lawyer) of only being in it for the money, i think you're going after the wrong person.
if you have to accuse someone on the left, maybe try len mccluskey, but think you're better off looking to the conservatives and beyond | |
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| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 13:46 - Sep 27 with 1050 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 12:34 - Sep 27 by Darth_Koont |
I have spilt the beans. I think far too many politicians in the major parties are out after a career where power and influence and the fairly occasional backhander/donation are commodities they can sell. During and after their parliamentary or cabinet career.
That’s why only policies matter. Not power for its own sake which quickly turns to self-interest.
Change from within or change from without, I don’t mind. But Labour under Starmer are part of the problem not the solution. |
But on that point ALL parliamentary political parties (and even political parties with parliamentary aspirations) are part of the problem are they not?
I don't think you can seriously expect a political party attempting to operate within our current system to set themselves up as the party who, if elected, will tear the playhouse down. Neither do I think that, if seeking to get elected, a mainstream political party could in this country successfully stand on an entirely left wing agenda - the country as a whole, led or aided and abetted by a largely right wing media, would not vote in sufficient numbers for that to be a reality.
Now this is a problem of course. However, I can't see that yet another internal struggle within the Labour Party, certainly whilst in opposition, is a solution to that problem. Realigning the Labour Party in a more "purist" image might satisfy those prepared to vote for it but would, in my view, consign the party to a LD-esque rump.
There is evidence I'm sure of all long-term office holders seeking to retain power for its own sake (I have witnessed long-serving councillors - when there was no real financial advantage to be gained - who lost sight of why they stood for election in the first place) but Labour under Starmer part of the problem? Only in the wider, part of the system in which they are constrained to operate, sense.
I think it is perfectly fair for people to question why you seem to obsess over what the LP should be whilst Johnson and his cronies continue to dismantle the very fabric of our way of life. | |
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| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 14:16 - Sep 27 with 1013 views | Darth_Koont |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 13:46 - Sep 27 by You_Bloo_Right |
But on that point ALL parliamentary political parties (and even political parties with parliamentary aspirations) are part of the problem are they not?
I don't think you can seriously expect a political party attempting to operate within our current system to set themselves up as the party who, if elected, will tear the playhouse down. Neither do I think that, if seeking to get elected, a mainstream political party could in this country successfully stand on an entirely left wing agenda - the country as a whole, led or aided and abetted by a largely right wing media, would not vote in sufficient numbers for that to be a reality.
Now this is a problem of course. However, I can't see that yet another internal struggle within the Labour Party, certainly whilst in opposition, is a solution to that problem. Realigning the Labour Party in a more "purist" image might satisfy those prepared to vote for it but would, in my view, consign the party to a LD-esque rump.
There is evidence I'm sure of all long-term office holders seeking to retain power for its own sake (I have witnessed long-serving councillors - when there was no real financial advantage to be gained - who lost sight of why they stood for election in the first place) but Labour under Starmer part of the problem? Only in the wider, part of the system in which they are constrained to operate, sense.
I think it is perfectly fair for people to question why you seem to obsess over what the LP should be whilst Johnson and his cronies continue to dismantle the very fabric of our way of life. |
It’s not a question of tearing down the system.
Use the system by all means, just oppose the Tories and the direction they’re moving in. Don’t follow them and tinker around the edges.
As much as anything, I think that approach is doomed electorally given they don’t look like they have any strong ideas or firm answers to anything.
The Labour Party has been losing ground steadily since 1997 with one blip. Perhaps addressing why would be a good idea. Not entirely unconnected, they’ve now ended up to the right of the US government on most matters foreign and domestic. And even Boris has little problem outflanking them nowadays. It’s time for Starmer et al to step up and actually show something. | |
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| Starmer.... on 14:20 - Sep 27 with 1006 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Starmer.... on 12:23 - Sep 27 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
It isn't difficult BB - let me try and spell it out;
Your continued name calling and views on those that chose to vote for Brexit is by definition bigotry.
Not sure where you got the line from about me thinking that if you hate bigots you must be one!
In my world we just need to be kinder to one another and show more respect for those of differing Brexit views. |
Saw this comparison on Twitter when a Brexit supporter was trying to invoke the spirit of the Blitz...
"Asking me to respect someone who supported and still supports Brexit considering the damage that has been, is still being and will be, done to this country is like going down to a tube station during an air raid, knowing that the person sitting next to you enabled the bombs that were being dropped.." |  |
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| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 14:33 - Sep 27 with 976 views | mylittletown |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 14:16 - Sep 27 by Darth_Koont |
It’s not a question of tearing down the system.
Use the system by all means, just oppose the Tories and the direction they’re moving in. Don’t follow them and tinker around the edges.
As much as anything, I think that approach is doomed electorally given they don’t look like they have any strong ideas or firm answers to anything.
The Labour Party has been losing ground steadily since 1997 with one blip. Perhaps addressing why would be a good idea. Not entirely unconnected, they’ve now ended up to the right of the US government on most matters foreign and domestic. And even Boris has little problem outflanking them nowadays. It’s time for Starmer et al to step up and actually show something. |
'they’ve now ended up to the right of the US government on most matters foreign and domestic. '
FFS, that's one of the most stupid statements I have seen posted on here in years. |  | | |
| Starmer.... on 14:47 - Sep 27 with 956 views | Timefliesbyintheblue |
| Starmer.... on 14:20 - Sep 27 by Ewan_Oozami |
Saw this comparison on Twitter when a Brexit supporter was trying to invoke the spirit of the Blitz...
"Asking me to respect someone who supported and still supports Brexit considering the damage that has been, is still being and will be, done to this country is like going down to a tube station during an air raid, knowing that the person sitting next to you enabled the bombs that were being dropped.." |
'the damage that has been, is still being and will be, done to this country'
EO we could argue this point all day long and drag up the same stories, headlines etc;
With your rather amusing analogy however at least you would be able to abuse or otherwise, face to face, rather than calling folk thickos, etc etc, cowardly on social media.
Yes bigots and cowards and verbal bullies I believe are part of our problem nowadays, inside and out of politics. | | | |
| Starmer.... on 14:55 - Sep 27 with 936 views | mylittletown |
| Starmer.... on 14:47 - Sep 27 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
'the damage that has been, is still being and will be, done to this country'
EO we could argue this point all day long and drag up the same stories, headlines etc;
With your rather amusing analogy however at least you would be able to abuse or otherwise, face to face, rather than calling folk thickos, etc etc, cowardly on social media.
Yes bigots and cowards and verbal bullies I believe are part of our problem nowadays, inside and out of politics. |
Funny isn't it? Just heard Lord Moylan, confirmed Brexiteer and close advisor to Johnson, stating that some damage to the economy was an inevitable consequence of a rapid withdrawal from the Customs Union and the Single Market, a view which has always also been held by many other keen Brexiteers including Rees-Mogg and Farage.
It is only in the cloud cuckoo world of The Daily Mail and Th e Daily Express that there could be no negative consequences. | | | |
| Starmer.... on 15:00 - Sep 27 with 924 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Starmer.... on 14:47 - Sep 27 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
'the damage that has been, is still being and will be, done to this country'
EO we could argue this point all day long and drag up the same stories, headlines etc;
With your rather amusing analogy however at least you would be able to abuse or otherwise, face to face, rather than calling folk thickos, etc etc, cowardly on social media.
Yes bigots and cowards and verbal bullies I believe are part of our problem nowadays, inside and out of politics. |
Thing is, I don't abuse or bully people, either on here on irl. If someone has a view I disagree with, I'll try to use reason to persuade them otherwise - if that doesn't work I may resort to mild sarcasm, which I'm sure you'll agree, doesn't really equate to abuse or bullying (depending to whom the sarcasm is aimed, of course)
Only exception is Battenberg, if someone doesn't like it then they're lower than an amoeba imho..... | |
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| Starmer.... on 15:05 - Sep 27 with 911 views | Herbivore |
| Starmer.... on 14:47 - Sep 27 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
'the damage that has been, is still being and will be, done to this country'
EO we could argue this point all day long and drag up the same stories, headlines etc;
With your rather amusing analogy however at least you would be able to abuse or otherwise, face to face, rather than calling folk thickos, etc etc, cowardly on social media.
Yes bigots and cowards and verbal bullies I believe are part of our problem nowadays, inside and out of politics. |
So why did you vote for one? |  |
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| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 15:13 - Sep 27 with 887 views | Darth_Koont |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 14:33 - Sep 27 by mylittletown |
'they’ve now ended up to the right of the US government on most matters foreign and domestic. '
FFS, that's one of the most stupid statements I have seen posted on here in years. |
It would have been a year or two ago. Not so much now. Biden’s actions are more progressive than anything in Starmer’s new “vision”. | |
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| Starmer.... on 15:14 - Sep 27 with 880 views | Timefliesbyintheblue |
| Starmer.... on 15:00 - Sep 27 by Ewan_Oozami |
Thing is, I don't abuse or bully people, either on here on irl. If someone has a view I disagree with, I'll try to use reason to persuade them otherwise - if that doesn't work I may resort to mild sarcasm, which I'm sure you'll agree, doesn't really equate to abuse or bullying (depending to whom the sarcasm is aimed, of course)
Only exception is Battenberg, if someone doesn't like it then they're lower than an amoeba imho..... |
I accept fully your reply EO, and being disagreed with or having sarcasm thrown one's way is fine and indeed should be encouraged.
As for Battenberg, well as a child it was that, Victoria Sponge or Butterfly Buns, so all still good in our household. | | | |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 15:22 - Sep 27 with 853 views | GlasgowBlue |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 15:13 - Sep 27 by Darth_Koont |
It would have been a year or two ago. Not so much now. Biden’s actions are more progressive than anything in Starmer’s new “vision”. |
Good people returning to Labour now that Starmer has started to delouse the place.
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| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 15:40 - Sep 27 with 838 views | tractordownsouth |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 08:33 - Sep 27 by giant_stow |
The biggest Corbyn lie in my book was that he cared so much about intra-party democracy, but ignored party members views on brexit. By sitting on the fence, he played politics rather than listen to his party members. A total and fundamental betrayal. |
Worth remembering that his mates effectively rewrote the party rule book for him to get on the ballot in 2016 after 80% of the PLP decided he was rubbish. |  |
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| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 17:46 - Sep 27 with 767 views | Darth_Koont |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 15:22 - Sep 27 by GlasgowBlue |
Good people returning to Labour now that Starmer has started to delouse the place.
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I’m glad she’s back. However you look at it, she should never have had to leave the party or felt she had to. And I don’t doubt she got a lot of unwarranted and personal abuse too which is never acceptable.
But as you’re still banging on about it, I don’t get why Corbyn is still a member unless the evidence against him just isn’t enough? Or Starmer isn’t taking it seriously enough?
No-one’s solved that conundrum. Rather Corbyn’s continued presence in the party does seem to back up his own assertion that certain antisemitism complaints were exaggerated and fabricated. Also, just making that point can’t be used to expel him either because it seems to be true.
Hmmm. | |
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| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 17:56 - Sep 27 with 745 views | positivity |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 17:46 - Sep 27 by Darth_Koont |
I’m glad she’s back. However you look at it, she should never have had to leave the party or felt she had to. And I don’t doubt she got a lot of unwarranted and personal abuse too which is never acceptable.
But as you’re still banging on about it, I don’t get why Corbyn is still a member unless the evidence against him just isn’t enough? Or Starmer isn’t taking it seriously enough?
No-one’s solved that conundrum. Rather Corbyn’s continued presence in the party does seem to back up his own assertion that certain antisemitism complaints were exaggerated and fabricated. Also, just making that point can’t be used to expel him either because it seems to be true.
Hmmm. |
i don't think many labour people think corbyn himself is racist, just weak at standing up to them, particularly when they're his mates/backers.
i think suspending him was right, as corbyn thought it was right to suspend livingstone. corbyn didn't expel livingstone. | |
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| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 18:57 - Sep 27 with 698 views | Darth_Koont |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 17:56 - Sep 27 by positivity |
i don't think many labour people think corbyn himself is racist, just weak at standing up to them, particularly when they're his mates/backers.
i think suspending him was right, as corbyn thought it was right to suspend livingstone. corbyn didn't expel livingstone. |
Corbyn isn’t suspended. There’s no investigation.
He’s had the whip removed but that doesn’t require evidence, that’s just at the discretion of the leadership.
But I agree with you that there’s not many people who seriously contend that Corbyn is a racist. But the smear was definitely that he was.
Unfortunately, there was a campaign based on accusations and flinging dirt that seriously exaggerated individual cases and the total number of actual antisemitic incidents. And most so-called journalists and fair-minded people just nodded along and took it as read. | |
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| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 19:07 - Sep 27 with 680 views | Darth_Koont |
| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 15:40 - Sep 27 by tractordownsouth |
Worth remembering that his mates effectively rewrote the party rule book for him to get on the ballot in 2016 after 80% of the PLP decided he was rubbish. |
Worth remembering that it was a leadership coup against the interests of the members.
Don’t lose sight of right and wrong, tractors. Party politics, particularly within Labour, seems to justify a completely different standard of morality.
I’m not holding out for anything major from the Forde Report but maybe it can be a start. There needs to be some recognition that this isn’t appropriate behaviour for a democratic party that’s meant to represent Labour members and the wider UK population. | |
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| So if we think Starmer waffles what word would use for Boris? (n/t) on 19:14 - Sep 27 with 667 views | Darth_Koont |
Oof!
Emperor’s New Labour.
[Post edited 27 Sep 2021 19:18]
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