| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. 18:47 - Oct 24 with 7790 views | noggin |
She speaks better English than most English adults. |  |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:34 - Oct 25 with 1125 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 09:20 - Oct 25 by StokieBlue |
This is an unbelievably simplistic view which I can only imagine you've sourced from Twitbook or your climate scientist friends down the pub.
Just because another country might be emitted more than us, it doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing everything we can to help in with the overall climate goals. If we want places like China and India to make changes we need to be speaking from a position where we are or have made those changes.
A few more tidbits for you:
- It's highly likely the computer you've been using to type your angry responses was manufactured in China (or at least many of the components) so without countries like the UK outsourcing their manufacturing emissions to places like China our footprint would be much higher.
- You are framing all emissions in a contemporary context, if we look at historic emissions then the US and EU have far more emissions than China or India since 1751. We have caused far more of this issue historically without even factoring in the outsourcing of manufacturing so of course we should take the lead in trying to sort it out.
- China simply has a lot of people. They need to move away from coal ASAP but it's worth noting they are by far the worlds biggest generator of renewable energy, generating more than 3 times the amount of the USA in second place.
https://www.irena.org/Statistics/View-Data-by-Topic/Capacity-and-Generation/Coun
So in summary, yes China should be doing more and we should continue to apply pressure to ensure that happens but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be progressing in our own duties to transition to a carbon neutral status.
I decided to be more direct with my posting since returning and to be honest I find your posts in this thread both ill-informed and utterly depressing. I don't want this place to be like Twitbook but with the level of reasoning and analysis that your showing that's unfortunately how it feels.
SB |
Good old middle class British exceptionalism. If we “continue to apply pressure” know what will happen? They’ll laugh at us behind their hands same as they have for the last 30 years and who can blame them. Do what you want, get your heat pump or your electric car or whatever. Just don’t expect to make a blind bit of difference to anything other than assuaging your own conscience. |  |
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| (No subject) (n/t) (n/t) on 11:35 - Oct 25 with 1121 views | StokieBlue |
| (No subject) (n/t) (n/t) on 11:24 - Oct 25 by GlasgowBlue |
I’d be genuinely interested to know what your reply was before you edited it out SB. I don’t see much anyone could disagree with in my post.
Greta Thunberg dies speaks. extremely well.
No other person has done so much to highlight the issue of climate change.
Noggin was right to highlight her remarkable achievements.
Noggin’s posts constantly involve either putting down this country or the people of this country. |
I didn't mean to reply to your post at all!
It was blank without an edit then I edited it to see if you could actually remove a totally blank post. All that happens is it's less blank as it contains the "Edit".
However, if you want an opinion on your post I am happy to give one:
I'm not at all happy with the state of this country at the moment. Whilst you are right there are many good people there are also many people who are self-entitled and selfish who care more about maintaining the status quo than they do about issues that will affect us, our children and the planet as a whole.
I am still pretty angry about Brexit, the fact that anyone can realistically maintain their position given the subsequent evidence is mind-boggling. As someone who puts stock in evidence and logic I find it incredibly depressing that lies and falsehoods can carry so much weight simply because people want to believe them. Confirmation bias runs riot through our country and we need to get on top of it now by educating the kids to think critically.
People deny climate change because it affects them financially. I have a friend I can't even talk to on the subject because he's so obtuse. He has a PhD in String Theory and is well off but is an absolute loon with regards to climate change because he doesn't want his little life affected in any way. To me he is a microcosm study of the UK at large. Too many people who are far from stupid putting forward stupid arguments to internally justify their selfish requirements.
You can also see the above in mask wearing. It's clearly something that helps restrict transmission of a pandemic causing virus yet so many people are against it because it makes them feel uncomfortable when really they should be thinking more about the people around them an society as a whole. The Tories made it a priority to remove the mask mandate because so many people have this entitled view. When we look at other countries mask wearing is at nearly 100%. Why is this if it isn't a fundamental difference in the mindset of many individuals in our country at this time compared to other similar countries in Europe?
So in summary, I agree with Herbs. I'm not particularly keen on where we are at the moment.
SB |  | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) (n/t) on 11:42 - Oct 25 with 1092 views | wkj |
| (No subject) (n/t) (n/t) on 11:35 - Oct 25 by StokieBlue |
I didn't mean to reply to your post at all!
It was blank without an edit then I edited it to see if you could actually remove a totally blank post. All that happens is it's less blank as it contains the "Edit".
However, if you want an opinion on your post I am happy to give one:
I'm not at all happy with the state of this country at the moment. Whilst you are right there are many good people there are also many people who are self-entitled and selfish who care more about maintaining the status quo than they do about issues that will affect us, our children and the planet as a whole.
I am still pretty angry about Brexit, the fact that anyone can realistically maintain their position given the subsequent evidence is mind-boggling. As someone who puts stock in evidence and logic I find it incredibly depressing that lies and falsehoods can carry so much weight simply because people want to believe them. Confirmation bias runs riot through our country and we need to get on top of it now by educating the kids to think critically.
People deny climate change because it affects them financially. I have a friend I can't even talk to on the subject because he's so obtuse. He has a PhD in String Theory and is well off but is an absolute loon with regards to climate change because he doesn't want his little life affected in any way. To me he is a microcosm study of the UK at large. Too many people who are far from stupid putting forward stupid arguments to internally justify their selfish requirements.
You can also see the above in mask wearing. It's clearly something that helps restrict transmission of a pandemic causing virus yet so many people are against it because it makes them feel uncomfortable when really they should be thinking more about the people around them an society as a whole. The Tories made it a priority to remove the mask mandate because so many people have this entitled view. When we look at other countries mask wearing is at nearly 100%. Why is this if it isn't a fundamental difference in the mindset of many individuals in our country at this time compared to other similar countries in Europe?
So in summary, I agree with Herbs. I'm not particularly keen on where we are at the moment.
SB |
"Whilst you are right there are many good people there are also many people who are self-entitled and selfish who care more about maintaining the status quo"
I think this line is the prime cut of your post. |  |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:49 - Oct 25 with 1069 views | StokieBlue |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:34 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
Good old middle class British exceptionalism. If we “continue to apply pressure” know what will happen? They’ll laugh at us behind their hands same as they have for the last 30 years and who can blame them. Do what you want, get your heat pump or your electric car or whatever. Just don’t expect to make a blind bit of difference to anything other than assuaging your own conscience. |
What are your thoughts on our historical emissions versus China and India? Do we not hold a huge amount of responsibility for where we are now with regards to the climate?
You've not really addressed any of the points I've put forward, which to be fair, is fairly standard for one of your posts. You've just said they will ignore us which isn't really helpful in any way. Even if they do, the west can still make a difference by reducing our emissions. It's not a zero-sum game, everything helps.
I think you've just re-enforced the points I've made in my response to GB to be honest.
SB | | | |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:55 - Oct 25 with 1037 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:49 - Oct 25 by StokieBlue |
What are your thoughts on our historical emissions versus China and India? Do we not hold a huge amount of responsibility for where we are now with regards to the climate?
You've not really addressed any of the points I've put forward, which to be fair, is fairly standard for one of your posts. You've just said they will ignore us which isn't really helpful in any way. Even if they do, the west can still make a difference by reducing our emissions. It's not a zero-sum game, everything helps.
I think you've just re-enforced the points I've made in my response to GB to be honest.
SB |
Of course we “hold responsibility” like we do for so many things. You’re looking in the wrong direction just like I dunno, Insulate Britain. Rather than taking the easy route holding up the working classes trying to get to work or scolding them about cars they should be outside Amazon or Shell or the Murdoch presses, but that would be hard.
Reducing our emissions makes nearly no difference as long as China for eg are introducing *new* coal fired stations that dwarf our entire output. I’m not saying do nothing, I’ve literally said the opposite, just don’t delude yourself that you’re making any grand gesture or making any impact whatsoever. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:57 - Oct 25 with 1026 views | noggin |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:55 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
Of course we “hold responsibility” like we do for so many things. You’re looking in the wrong direction just like I dunno, Insulate Britain. Rather than taking the easy route holding up the working classes trying to get to work or scolding them about cars they should be outside Amazon or Shell or the Murdoch presses, but that would be hard.
Reducing our emissions makes nearly no difference as long as China for eg are introducing *new* coal fired stations that dwarf our entire output. I’m not saying do nothing, I’ve literally said the opposite, just don’t delude yourself that you’re making any grand gesture or making any impact whatsoever. |
So you're saying we shouldn't bother? | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:58 - Oct 25 with 1025 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:57 - Oct 25 by noggin |
So you're saying we shouldn't bother? |
*sigh*
“I’m not saying do nothing” | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:59 - Oct 25 with 1017 views | noggin |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:58 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
*sigh*
“I’m not saying do nothing” |
You literally suggested anything we personally do is a waste of time. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:01 - Oct 25 with 1003 views | StokieBlue |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:55 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
Of course we “hold responsibility” like we do for so many things. You’re looking in the wrong direction just like I dunno, Insulate Britain. Rather than taking the easy route holding up the working classes trying to get to work or scolding them about cars they should be outside Amazon or Shell or the Murdoch presses, but that would be hard.
Reducing our emissions makes nearly no difference as long as China for eg are introducing *new* coal fired stations that dwarf our entire output. I’m not saying do nothing, I’ve literally said the opposite, just don’t delude yourself that you’re making any grand gesture or making any impact whatsoever. |
Once again this simply isn't true.
It's not a zero-sum game. If the western countries can get to carbon neutrality by 2050 (which I admit is a lofty ambition) then that is ~30% of the carbon emissions no longer entering the atmosphere. You need to look at the western countries with the same goal as a block rather than the UK as an individual nation.
To say that has no effect is scientifically inaccurate. It has a huge effect, it would also be leverage to put pressure on China. Whether they listen is a different matter as you've said.
SB | | | |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:02 - Oct 25 with 994 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:59 - Oct 25 by noggin |
You literally suggested anything we personally do is a waste of time. |
It is a waste of time. It’s not going to make any difference whatsoever. That’s not a reason to do nothing, people are at liberty to do what they want. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:04 - Oct 25 with 987 views | noggin |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:02 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
It is a waste of time. It’s not going to make any difference whatsoever. That’s not a reason to do nothing, people are at liberty to do what they want. |
Well if it was true, yes it would be "reason to do nothing." | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:07 - Oct 25 with 978 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:01 - Oct 25 by StokieBlue |
Once again this simply isn't true.
It's not a zero-sum game. If the western countries can get to carbon neutrality by 2050 (which I admit is a lofty ambition) then that is ~30% of the carbon emissions no longer entering the atmosphere. You need to look at the western countries with the same goal as a block rather than the UK as an individual nation.
To say that has no effect is scientifically inaccurate. It has a huge effect, it would also be leverage to put pressure on China. Whether they listen is a different matter as you've said.
SB |
And how much would that reduction in your example be offset by the growth in India China Indonesia Brazil Mexico et al? To whom we export a lot of our emissions already?
It’s laughable to think the CCP listen or care or are subject to any “leverage”. They don’t. They have an entirely different way of living in the world. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:08 - Oct 25 with 975 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:04 - Oct 25 by noggin |
Well if it was true, yes it would be "reason to do nothing." |
I believe in people making their own choices. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:08 - Oct 25 with 975 views | WeWereZombies |
That's a decent article. Only danger with this type of news is that too many people, in my opinion, get encouraged to sit back and assume that someone else will sort things out; when, if fact, we all have to do something to ensure that such measures as are described in the article continue to be applied and have new, and more stringent measures added to them. There is no way around it, as a couple of other posters have already pointed out in this thread, we are going to have to forsake our consumerist ways and find more parsimonious routes to the future.
At least that way we will have a future, and we might even be surprised at how much more rewarding a future that is more in harmony with the rest of nature can be. |  |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:10 - Oct 25 with 973 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:08 - Oct 25 by WeWereZombies |
That's a decent article. Only danger with this type of news is that too many people, in my opinion, get encouraged to sit back and assume that someone else will sort things out; when, if fact, we all have to do something to ensure that such measures as are described in the article continue to be applied and have new, and more stringent measures added to them. There is no way around it, as a couple of other posters have already pointed out in this thread, we are going to have to forsake our consumerist ways and find more parsimonious routes to the future.
At least that way we will have a future, and we might even be surprised at how much more rewarding a future that is more in harmony with the rest of nature can be. |
This is one thing that a few people are waking up to. It’s not about swaps or alternatives or sustainability. It is very simply about using consuming and buying less. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:11 - Oct 25 with 969 views | StokieBlue |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:07 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
And how much would that reduction in your example be offset by the growth in India China Indonesia Brazil Mexico et al? To whom we export a lot of our emissions already?
It’s laughable to think the CCP listen or care or are subject to any “leverage”. They don’t. They have an entirely different way of living in the world. |
For the third time it's not a zero-sum game:
A = Western block emissions
B = Chinese emissions
C = Indian emissions
D = Other countries
T = Total emissions
T = A + B + C + D
Any reduction in A makes a difference to T so once again your point is simply incorrect. If we do nothing an A stays constant or increases then T increases and the warming overall increases. I know that deep down you know this but perhaps seeing it all laid out will make a difference.
China is one of the countries most at risk from climate change, they have a huge population they won't be able to feed and won't have enough water. You'll be surprised how much they might changed when things become real.
From your other post, you are of course correct on consumption and how we need to change our attitudes towards that.
SB [Post edited 25 Oct 2021 12:14]
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:14 - Oct 25 with 951 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:11 - Oct 25 by StokieBlue |
For the third time it's not a zero-sum game:
A = Western block emissions
B = Chinese emissions
C = Indian emissions
D = Other countries
T = Total emissions
T = A + B + C + D
Any reduction in A makes a difference to T so once again your point is simply incorrect. If we do nothing an A stays constant or increases then T increases and the warming overall increases. I know that deep down you know this but perhaps seeing it all laid out will make a difference.
China is one of the countries most at risk from climate change, they have a huge population they won't be able to feed and won't have enough water. You'll be surprised how much they might changed when things become real.
From your other post, you are of course correct on consumption and how we need to change our attitudes towards that.
SB [Post edited 25 Oct 2021 12:14]
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And I’ll ask you again. In your example how much of ~30% in A will be offset by the growth in B C and D? And how does that affect T? Or are you slowly realising I’m right? | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:16 - Oct 25 with 947 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:55 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
Of course we “hold responsibility” like we do for so many things. You’re looking in the wrong direction just like I dunno, Insulate Britain. Rather than taking the easy route holding up the working classes trying to get to work or scolding them about cars they should be outside Amazon or Shell or the Murdoch presses, but that would be hard.
Reducing our emissions makes nearly no difference as long as China for eg are introducing *new* coal fired stations that dwarf our entire output. I’m not saying do nothing, I’ve literally said the opposite, just don’t delude yourself that you’re making any grand gesture or making any impact whatsoever. |
Do you not remember them doing the Murdoch press?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-54038591 |  | | |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:18 - Oct 25 with 936 views | chicoazul |
Yes. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:18 - Oct 25 with 929 views | StokieBlue |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:14 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
And I’ll ask you again. In your example how much of ~30% in A will be offset by the growth in B C and D? And how does that affect T? Or are you slowly realising I’m right? |
It's totally irrelevant, the sum is pretty easy to understand. Your problem is that you are looking at offsets which are is not the right way to look about it. If we do nothing there will still be a growth in B, C and D so overall emissions increase.
To be honest I think you're being deliberately obtuse now and playing your usual games. You're not right in the slightest.
SB | | | |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:19 - Oct 25 with 925 views | Herbivore |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:14 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
And I’ll ask you again. In your example how much of ~30% in A will be offset by the growth in B C and D? And how does that affect T? Or are you slowly realising I’m right? |
If B, C and D grow that isn't because A is reducing though, so you're still significantly better off if A gets down to zero than if it stays the same. |  |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:23 - Oct 25 with 899 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:18 - Oct 25 by StokieBlue |
It's totally irrelevant, the sum is pretty easy to understand. Your problem is that you are looking at offsets which are is not the right way to look about it. If we do nothing there will still be a growth in B, C and D so overall emissions increase.
To be honest I think you're being deliberately obtuse now and playing your usual games. You're not right in the slightest.
SB |
My point, for the billionth time, is that what we do here in the UK makes no difference. That’s not a reason to do nothing, people can do what they like and if they feel they want to stop eating meat and using a car good for them. It makes no difference at all. Super large places like Brazil China and India could care less what we tell them. They’ve had years of fat middle class comfortable bourgeois westerners lecturing them.
I’m pretty sure this is your way of saying “I don’t know” to my question btw. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:26 - Oct 25 with 881 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:19 - Oct 25 by Herbivore |
If B, C and D grow that isn't because A is reducing though, so you're still significantly better off if A gets down to zero than if it stays the same. |
We export loads of our emissions. Say it does go down to 0 by 2050 to use Stokies example. How much will their emissions grow in the meantime? | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:27 - Oct 25 with 878 views | Darth_Koont |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:19 - Oct 25 by Herbivore |
If B, C and D grow that isn't because A is reducing though, so you're still significantly better off if A gets down to zero than if it stays the same. |
Plus changing our own behaviour will change our demands that then have a knock-on effect in those mass manufacturing countries. As well as affecting consumer behaviour/aspirations in emerging and developing regions.
Keeping on doing the same thing in the West because “it won’t matter anyway” is the ultimate self-fulfilling prophecy. |  |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:27 - Oct 25 with 871 views | monytowbray |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 07:39 - Oct 25 by blueconscience |
Do you honestly think what we do will make that much difference when the main contributors to the issue don’t give a s**t?
Whilst they don’t take it seriously, there is no point me even worrying about it, as my actions or even the whole country taking action won’t make a noticeable amount of difference.
I will still wish you good luck in your challenge to go “green” |
If I were to demand you come round and make me 55k knitted jumpers, then moaned my house was covered in (vegan) wool and a mess, who would you blame?
What are YOU doing to reduce the carbon footprint in the cheap labour exploited nations most the crap we buy/ship here comes from?
It’s a global problem and if you can’t see that you’re a f**king idiot. |  |
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