| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. 18:47 - Oct 24 with 7783 views | noggin |
She speaks better English than most English adults. |  |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:32 - Oct 25 with 892 views | monytowbray |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:31 - Oct 25 by GlasgowBlue |
of course we can do better. My response was that noggin constantly takes pleasure in knocking the people of this country. |
The majority of this country think the odd bit of charity makes them good then do nothing to actually combat these issues in lifestyle.
Cognitive dissonance on a national/global scale. You’ve voted for enough homophobic misogynists in your time as a Tory. Not to mention supporting market powers to control everything, and look where we are now. |  |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:34 - Oct 25 with 889 views | monytowbray |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:55 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
Of course we “hold responsibility” like we do for so many things. You’re looking in the wrong direction just like I dunno, Insulate Britain. Rather than taking the easy route holding up the working classes trying to get to work or scolding them about cars they should be outside Amazon or Shell or the Murdoch presses, but that would be hard.
Reducing our emissions makes nearly no difference as long as China for eg are introducing *new* coal fired stations that dwarf our entire output. I’m not saying do nothing, I’ve literally said the opposite, just don’t delude yourself that you’re making any grand gesture or making any impact whatsoever. |
Your habit of piling in with the same angles so we have to do the same thread AGAIN is dull.
You’ve been proven wrong with this take enough times now | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:36 - Oct 25 with 902 views | eireblue |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:23 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
My point, for the billionth time, is that what we do here in the UK makes no difference. That’s not a reason to do nothing, people can do what they like and if they feel they want to stop eating meat and using a car good for them. It makes no difference at all. Super large places like Brazil China and India could care less what we tell them. They’ve had years of fat middle class comfortable bourgeois westerners lecturing them.
I’m pretty sure this is your way of saying “I don’t know” to my question btw. |
Your points just seem to be a comment on people that actually try.
E.g.
“.. assuaging your own conscience.”
To me you are simply expressing an emotional reaction on people, rather than saying anything useful or concrete on the topic that can be agreed or disagreed or debated with.
So if it helps, I agree you have an emotional reaction that you have expressed lots of times. |  | | |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:44 - Oct 25 with 878 views | Herbivore |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:26 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
We export loads of our emissions. Say it does go down to 0 by 2050 to use Stokies example. How much will their emissions grow in the meantime? |
I'm not following you now. Are you claiming that we will only achieve net zero by dumping our emissions on to other countries? If that's your point I disagree, there are lots of ways we can cut emissions without exporting them to other countries. If that's not your point I'm not sure why you are finding it hard to understand that our emissions becoming net zero is a good thing even if the likes of China don't follow suit. It will still mean significantly lower emissions globally than would be the case if we do nothing, especially if, as Stokie says, the 'West' acts as a bloc on this. |  |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:50 - Oct 25 with 858 views | NthQldITFC |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 10:50 - Oct 25 by Swansea_Blue |
Partly due to a reliance still on coal for electricity, by the looks of it - https://www.cleanenergywire.org/dossiers/energy-transition-and-climate-change
They make an interesting case study.
And yes good point on development (growth) - this is the things that George Monbiot keeps talking about. Green Growth is a misnomer. and we need to rein in consumption. But then that obviously has huge implications when people want to become richer and have more toys and gadgets. [Post edited 25 Oct 2021 10:52]
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and of course leads on to the ever taboo subject of human population levels. |  |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:52 - Oct 25 with 852 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:36 - Oct 25 by eireblue |
Your points just seem to be a comment on people that actually try.
E.g.
“.. assuaging your own conscience.”
To me you are simply expressing an emotional reaction on people, rather than saying anything useful or concrete on the topic that can be agreed or disagreed or debated with.
So if it helps, I agree you have an emotional reaction that you have expressed lots of times. |
Weird how lots of people keep debating with me then isn’t it. Unless you’re wrong? |  |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:56 - Oct 25 with 842 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:44 - Oct 25 by Herbivore |
I'm not following you now. Are you claiming that we will only achieve net zero by dumping our emissions on to other countries? If that's your point I disagree, there are lots of ways we can cut emissions without exporting them to other countries. If that's not your point I'm not sure why you are finding it hard to understand that our emissions becoming net zero is a good thing even if the likes of China don't follow suit. It will still mean significantly lower emissions globally than would be the case if we do nothing, especially if, as Stokie says, the 'West' acts as a bloc on this. |
Well when have I said getting to net zero would be a bad thing? Pretty sure I haven’t.
I keep asking Stokie the same thing specifically about how much his example would be offset over the same time by B C D emissions and all he has said so far is offsets aren’t the point. I am not sure we can get to that level without exporting a significant amount of our emissions, no. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:56 - Oct 25 with 839 views | eireblue |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:52 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
Weird how lots of people keep debating with me then isn’t it. Unless you’re wrong? |
I don’t think, for instance, SB is debating with you.
He is trying to educate you on basic sums and the term zero sum game. | | | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 13:01 - Oct 25 with 828 views | Herbivore |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:56 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
Well when have I said getting to net zero would be a bad thing? Pretty sure I haven’t.
I keep asking Stokie the same thing specifically about how much his example would be offset over the same time by B C D emissions and all he has said so far is offsets aren’t the point. I am not sure we can get to that level without exporting a significant amount of our emissions, no. |
You haven't said it's a bad thing, just that it's pointless.
He's right, offsets don't matter in this case. To keep it simple let's say the 'West' currently contributes a value of 3 to global carbon emissions, China 2, India and Brazil 2, and misc other nations 2. That's a total of 9. Let's say that the others are on track to increase their contribution to 3 over the next 20 years. If the West does nothing we end up with a total of 12. If the West goes to net zero then we end up with the total remaining at 9. Emissions end up being a third higher if we do nothing than if we get to net zero, so it's not right to say it makes no difference.
Disagree regarding exporting emissions. We've already done that with most of our manufacturing but stuff like reducing flights, changing diet, insulating homes and replacing gas boilers, and switching to electric cars will all significantly reduce our level of emissions and won't involve exporting of emissions. [Post edited 25 Oct 2021 13:03]
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 13:03 - Oct 25 with 821 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:56 - Oct 25 by eireblue |
I don’t think, for instance, SB is debating with you.
He is trying to educate you on basic sums and the term zero sum game. |
If that’s the case then I wonder why. Might it be because he….disagrees with me? | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 13:04 - Oct 25 with 817 views | Herbivore |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 13:03 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
If that’s the case then I wonder why. Might it be because he….disagrees with me? |
Disagreeing with someone is not the same as thinking someone is demonstrably incorrect. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 13:08 - Oct 25 with 804 views | NthQldITFC |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 11:34 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
Good old middle class British exceptionalism. If we “continue to apply pressure” know what will happen? They’ll laugh at us behind their hands same as they have for the last 30 years and who can blame them. Do what you want, get your heat pump or your electric car or whatever. Just don’t expect to make a blind bit of difference to anything other than assuaging your own conscience. |
There's common ground here. I understand where you're coming from, and it always pisses me off when these discussions descend into angry somewhat personal exchanges. I suppose I would answer your point just by saying that, logically, every little bit helps and can encourage others to take similar steps. Also "assuaging your own conscience" could be positively expressed as "doing what you think is morally right", irrespective of how small the likelihood is of success. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 13:10 - Oct 25 with 803 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 13:01 - Oct 25 by Herbivore |
You haven't said it's a bad thing, just that it's pointless.
He's right, offsets don't matter in this case. To keep it simple let's say the 'West' currently contributes a value of 3 to global carbon emissions, China 2, India and Brazil 2, and misc other nations 2. That's a total of 9. Let's say that the others are on track to increase their contribution to 3 over the next 20 years. If the West does nothing we end up with a total of 12. If the West goes to net zero then we end up with the total remaining at 9. Emissions end up being a third higher if we do nothing than if we get to net zero, so it's not right to say it makes no difference.
Disagree regarding exporting emissions. We've already done that with most of our manufacturing but stuff like reducing flights, changing diet, insulating homes and replacing gas boilers, and switching to electric cars will all significantly reduce our level of emissions and won't involve exporting of emissions. [Post edited 25 Oct 2021 13:03]
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That’s working on the assumption that your allocation of 2,3 etc is correct of course. But I would say that you and Stokie are or seem to be talking about the entire West. Is that fair? I’m talking about the UK specifically. A completely joined up approach might get the results you and he are talking about but I’d say it’s highly unlikely you would even get that approach or anything like it in the first place. But I suppose that’s a different argument.
All this talking of exporting reminds me it is of course ironic that OP lives and thrives in the greatest climate hypocrite in the world. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 13:11 - Oct 25 with 798 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 13:04 - Oct 25 by Herbivore |
Disagreeing with someone is not the same as thinking someone is demonstrably incorrect. |
Arguably though it *is* the same if you then tell them so. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 13:12 - Oct 25 with 794 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 13:08 - Oct 25 by NthQldITFC |
There's common ground here. I understand where you're coming from, and it always pisses me off when these discussions descend into angry somewhat personal exchanges. I suppose I would answer your point just by saying that, logically, every little bit helps and can encourage others to take similar steps. Also "assuaging your own conscience" could be positively expressed as "doing what you think is morally right", irrespective of how small the likelihood is of success. |
This is all true. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 13:15 - Oct 25 with 783 views | eireblue |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 13:03 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
If that’s the case then I wonder why. Might it be because he….disagrees with me? |
There is nothing to disagree with when it comes to basic sums and definitions.
Continuing to make your emotional point for the billionth time, is I am sure, something that is validating for you to do.
The friendly people on TWTD are probably just wanting to help you with some basic maths. | | | |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 13:15 - Oct 25 with 783 views | Herbivore |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 13:10 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
That’s working on the assumption that your allocation of 2,3 etc is correct of course. But I would say that you and Stokie are or seem to be talking about the entire West. Is that fair? I’m talking about the UK specifically. A completely joined up approach might get the results you and he are talking about but I’d say it’s highly unlikely you would even get that approach or anything like it in the first place. But I suppose that’s a different argument.
All this talking of exporting reminds me it is of course ironic that OP lives and thrives in the greatest climate hypocrite in the world. |
Much of the west already has lower per capita emissions than us. Getting the US fully on board would make a big difference and is a challenge but there seems to be some movement there under Biden. The specific values don't matter either, Chico, they are illustrative. If other nations are going up then us going net zero means the overall total goes up less than if we do nothing. And that's true even if we're just talking about the UK, albeit that proportionally it makes less of a difference than if it's the west as a bloc. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 14:19 - Oct 25 with 716 views | StokieBlue |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 12:23 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
My point, for the billionth time, is that what we do here in the UK makes no difference. That’s not a reason to do nothing, people can do what they like and if they feel they want to stop eating meat and using a car good for them. It makes no difference at all. Super large places like Brazil China and India could care less what we tell them. They’ve had years of fat middle class comfortable bourgeois westerners lecturing them.
I’m pretty sure this is your way of saying “I don’t know” to my question btw. |
"is that what we do here in the UK makes no difference"
(A + B + C + D) > ((A * 0.25) + B + C + D)
Without needing any numbers in the simple equation we can see that whatever happens to B, C, and D, if A is reduced by 75% the overall number is higher than when A remains constant. So demonstrably doing something to A makes a difference, it might not be as much as we want but it is a difference. I notice you've also switched A to be the UK when I clearly said it was a western block, I am sure that wasn't intentional though.
In the end, as I've said numerous times, it's not the zero-sum game you are continually implying.
We have to try.
SB [Post edited 25 Oct 2021 14:21]
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 16:21 - Oct 25 with 627 views | monytowbray |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 14:19 - Oct 25 by StokieBlue |
"is that what we do here in the UK makes no difference"
(A + B + C + D) > ((A * 0.25) + B + C + D)
Without needing any numbers in the simple equation we can see that whatever happens to B, C, and D, if A is reduced by 75% the overall number is higher than when A remains constant. So demonstrably doing something to A makes a difference, it might not be as much as we want but it is a difference. I notice you've also switched A to be the UK when I clearly said it was a western block, I am sure that wasn't intentional though.
In the end, as I've said numerous times, it's not the zero-sum game you are continually implying.
We have to try.
SB [Post edited 25 Oct 2021 14:21]
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Doesn't even matter at this point with Chico.
As the sum in reality is much more complex when it comes to emission action in a global society - if he can't grasp 2+2=4 he's not going to get very far in sussing the truth with facts and evidence.
He's a repeat offender on many topics, where every time he's proven wrong he vanishes and then appears in the next thread spouting the same crap as if it's a clean slate. Much more context to his posting history.
I can tell you this is a fact as I've DEFFO seen others (and myself but 99% sure he's div'ed me) explain in threads he's active in that the West's exploitation of overseas labour and endless need to consume is why these places have higher carbon footprints.
I just don't know why people can't take some personal f**king responsibility and be a bit more resourceful and/or mindful of their lifestyle impacts? I've not seen Chico ever post on that topic, because he's not really interested in anything but denialism and whatteraboutery when it comes to climate change.
Anything to avoid admitting a bit of personal fault and growing as a person I guess. Meh, I can't be f**ked with these types anymore. They exist as an energy drain to frustrate when you could spend the same time talking to someone with a brain who might listen/change. [Post edited 25 Oct 2021 16:22]
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 16:45 - Oct 25 with 580 views | ZXBlue |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 16:21 - Oct 25 by monytowbray |
Doesn't even matter at this point with Chico.
As the sum in reality is much more complex when it comes to emission action in a global society - if he can't grasp 2+2=4 he's not going to get very far in sussing the truth with facts and evidence.
He's a repeat offender on many topics, where every time he's proven wrong he vanishes and then appears in the next thread spouting the same crap as if it's a clean slate. Much more context to his posting history.
I can tell you this is a fact as I've DEFFO seen others (and myself but 99% sure he's div'ed me) explain in threads he's active in that the West's exploitation of overseas labour and endless need to consume is why these places have higher carbon footprints.
I just don't know why people can't take some personal f**king responsibility and be a bit more resourceful and/or mindful of their lifestyle impacts? I've not seen Chico ever post on that topic, because he's not really interested in anything but denialism and whatteraboutery when it comes to climate change.
Anything to avoid admitting a bit of personal fault and growing as a person I guess. Meh, I can't be f**ked with these types anymore. They exist as an energy drain to frustrate when you could spend the same time talking to someone with a brain who might listen/change. [Post edited 25 Oct 2021 16:22]
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Are people in this thread really ignoring, in order to object to stuff they clearly ought to be doing, missing two points:
1. Even if its not enough, some is better than nothing; and
2. The pressure and change in mindsets created by getting our own houses in order, is the only way forward and is the only way to put pressure on others (whether China or elsewhere) to move towards that as well. |  | | |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 17:40 - Oct 25 with 531 views | chicoazul |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 16:45 - Oct 25 by ZXBlue |
Are people in this thread really ignoring, in order to object to stuff they clearly ought to be doing, missing two points:
1. Even if its not enough, some is better than nothing; and
2. The pressure and change in mindsets created by getting our own houses in order, is the only way forward and is the only way to put pressure on others (whether China or elsewhere) to move towards that as well. |
China don’t care. This is one thing I cannot stand about this debate, the idea that us over here can in any way influence the titanic sinister Communist despotism sat in Peking with a billion people at their beck and call. | |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 17:44 - Oct 25 with 526 views | giant_stow |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 17:40 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
China don’t care. This is one thing I cannot stand about this debate, the idea that us over here can in any way influence the titanic sinister Communist despotism sat in Peking with a billion people at their beck and call. |
For what its worth, I agree about the danger posed by China in general, but at least China's own behavior is starting to force people to sit up and pay attention now. Very dangerous and scary. Anyway, all that's by the by for this thread, so apologies. |  |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 17:54 - Oct 25 with 512 views | WeWereZombies |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 17:40 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
China don’t care. This is one thing I cannot stand about this debate, the idea that us over here can in any way influence the titanic sinister Communist despotism sat in Peking with a billion people at their beck and call. |
If a billion Chinese are at the beck and call of Beijing (although I suspect that you mean the seven members of the Politburo Standing Committee rather than the entire city) then why do they need riot police?
https://www.economist.com/china/2021/09/18/protesters-in-china-besiege-an-indebt |  |
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| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 18:01 - Oct 25 with 491 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 17:40 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
China don’t care. This is one thing I cannot stand about this debate, the idea that us over here can in any way influence the titanic sinister Communist despotism sat in Peking with a billion people at their beck and call. |
Completely agree they are a deeply sinister regime, but I do think you're wrong about them not caring about environmental stuff.
While there is bad stuff happening, they are also trying to do some positive things. When I was in Beijing last, they had recently started limiting vehicle permits for non-electric cars, were rolling out a massive electric trolleybus network and were continuing to expand other public transport. There were far more electric cars on the road than we have here (virtually every taxi we used was electric).
The one thing the Chinese government is scared of is its own people, and they will do whatever they think is necessary to keep people on side. Environmental disasters like flooding are growing in frequency and people will be expecting action (unlike certain western countries, there is not really any climate change denial/scepticism in China). |  | | |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 18:02 - Oct 25 with 490 views | Darth_Koont |
| Just seen Greta Thunberg on tv. on 17:40 - Oct 25 by chicoazul |
China don’t care. This is one thing I cannot stand about this debate, the idea that us over here can in any way influence the titanic sinister Communist despotism sat in Peking with a billion people at their beck and call. |
I think you’re sticking an ostrich egg in your pudding. China is changing rapidly and arguably is more forward-thinking than us. Certainly at the current rate of change and where we need to be in the next 20 or 30 years.
You’ll have no disagreement from me re: their lack of democracy and human rights abuses. But compared to our rather laissez-faire, individual liberty approach they’re much more ready to adapt to the world’s needs. |  |
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