| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign 22:10 - May 6 with 10333 views | ElderGrizzly |
If fined for “beergate”
Assume this is Abbott and Corbyn then based on their comments and tweets the last few days
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 10:58 - May 7 with 691 views | DublinBlue84 |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 10:50 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
If Labour power-brokers hadn’t spent the last 3 or 4 decades sh1tting on social democracy and bigging up neoliberalism then we wouldn’t be in the current mess. And Labour wouldn’t have lost voters for 20 years until they came back for Corbyn’s social democracy in 2017.
But sure, let’s just keep plodding along in the same direction.
When do you start thinking enough is enough? |
Jeremy Corbyn has two elections. He lost both.
These are the facts of the matter. He had his chance.
It's someone else's turn.
I couldn't vote for Labour under Corbyn, I know many people who were the same. |  |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:01 - May 7 with 677 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 10:56 - May 7 by ZXBlue |
Easy to speculate, but not much logic behind it.
To win a GE you need to entice the middle ground. And ideally some chunks from the other side. With scotland largely lost, that is more essential than ever.
History is full of leftist labour leaders who simply fall short of the required votes. You are literally going back almost 50 years for an example of a succesful labour leader who is not, in your view, just a tory in disguise. 50 years. What do you think would be different this time?
[Post edited 7 May 2022 11:00]
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To win an election you need to stand for something and promote your ideas. The Tories have been on brand for years so they can pivot anyway they want with simplistic “Get Brexit Done” tactical campaigns.
The quick-fix lurches to the right to chase the Tories have hollowed out the Labour Party and left them standing for nothing.
“Not the Tories (but close)”just isn’t inspiring or a real answer. |  |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:05 - May 7 with 663 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 10:58 - May 7 by DublinBlue84 |
Jeremy Corbyn has two elections. He lost both.
These are the facts of the matter. He had his chance.
It's someone else's turn.
I couldn't vote for Labour under Corbyn, I know many people who were the same. |
That’s up to you.
Any remotely serious study of Labour over the last 20-odd years would note that 2017 (free from Brexit and the worst smears largely brought on by the Labour right) is the only election to buck that trend.
And most importantly, but seemingly totally ignored, is what politics and policies does the country need? Westminster politics and posturing isn’t real. | |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:07 - May 7 with 645 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:05 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
That’s up to you.
Any remotely serious study of Labour over the last 20-odd years would note that 2017 (free from Brexit and the worst smears largely brought on by the Labour right) is the only election to buck that trend.
And most importantly, but seemingly totally ignored, is what politics and policies does the country need? Westminster politics and posturing isn’t real. |
that would be the first one he lost? the one where may self-imploded? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:09 - May 7 with 634 views | Beckets |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:05 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
That’s up to you.
Any remotely serious study of Labour over the last 20-odd years would note that 2017 (free from Brexit and the worst smears largely brought on by the Labour right) is the only election to buck that trend.
And most importantly, but seemingly totally ignored, is what politics and policies does the country need? Westminster politics and posturing isn’t real. |
For me the answer for the Labour Party lies with the policies of their counterparts in Scandinavia. Proper social democracy.
Edit - maybe philosophies rather than policies although one should lead to the other [Post edited 7 May 2022 11:11]
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:12 - May 7 with 616 views | DublinBlue84 |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:01 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
To win an election you need to stand for something and promote your ideas. The Tories have been on brand for years so they can pivot anyway they want with simplistic “Get Brexit Done” tactical campaigns.
The quick-fix lurches to the right to chase the Tories have hollowed out the Labour Party and left them standing for nothing.
“Not the Tories (but close)”just isn’t inspiring or a real answer. |
It always makes me laugh that the left of the Labour party consider the most successful leaders of the last 50 years to be the ones that have always been in opposition and the ones they hate are the ones that have actually managed to win elections, in some cases easily. So yes, it is the fault of Blair for winning elections that the Labour Party is not in power.
And now to top it all off, we have someone on here who is a backer of Labour Leaders who have failed time after time to win elections and hates the ones who have, lecturing people on what it takes to win an election. I think the word deluded was invented for people like you.
The irony if so off the scale that the arrow has swung so hard that the gauge has fractured. | |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:12 - May 7 with 615 views | ZXBlue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:01 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
To win an election you need to stand for something and promote your ideas. The Tories have been on brand for years so they can pivot anyway they want with simplistic “Get Brexit Done” tactical campaigns.
The quick-fix lurches to the right to chase the Tories have hollowed out the Labour Party and left them standing for nothing.
“Not the Tories (but close)”just isn’t inspiring or a real answer. |
Its a lovely idea. History is against you. Noone other than Blair has won an election for labour in 50 years. FIFTY!
Burnham would, I strongly suspect, result int eh same outcome, because he would not be attractive to large swatehrs of the country who would need persuading to shift allegiance.
But thats what you want. An ideologically favourable underdog who can lose, so you can howl at the moon about how its all so unfair. [Post edited 7 May 2022 11:14]
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:14 - May 7 with 606 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:09 - May 7 by Beckets |
For me the answer for the Labour Party lies with the policies of their counterparts in Scandinavia. Proper social democracy.
Edit - maybe philosophies rather than policies although one should lead to the other [Post edited 7 May 2022 11:11]
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Absolutely.
Unfortunately our politics is so illiterate and ignorant (generations of self-serving politicians and a predominantly right-wing media) that we call that far left.
We’re as stupid about politics as the US is about guns. | |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:18 - May 7 with 585 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:12 - May 7 by ZXBlue |
Its a lovely idea. History is against you. Noone other than Blair has won an election for labour in 50 years. FIFTY!
Burnham would, I strongly suspect, result int eh same outcome, because he would not be attractive to large swatehrs of the country who would need persuading to shift allegiance.
But thats what you want. An ideologically favourable underdog who can lose, so you can howl at the moon about how its all so unfair. [Post edited 7 May 2022 11:14]
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That’s gone now. Blair still needed Labour heartlands in Scotland and the North but they’ve gone as a result of shifting right and trying to stay there.
Definition of insanity to pretend that’s still the right way forward 20-odd years later. The results speak for themselves bar 2017. | |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:20 - May 7 with 588 views | ZXBlue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:18 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
That’s gone now. Blair still needed Labour heartlands in Scotland and the North but they’ve gone as a result of shifting right and trying to stay there.
Definition of insanity to pretend that’s still the right way forward 20-odd years later. The results speak for themselves bar 2017. |
yes its gone. Its even harder now. Do you really think someone like Burnham would secure the votes int eh south, scotland and so on needed to win a GE? If so, why? Because that has has not happened in 50 years! | | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:20 - May 7 with 586 views | DublinBlue84 |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:05 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
That’s up to you.
Any remotely serious study of Labour over the last 20-odd years would note that 2017 (free from Brexit and the worst smears largely brought on by the Labour right) is the only election to buck that trend.
And most importantly, but seemingly totally ignored, is what politics and policies does the country need? Westminster politics and posturing isn’t real. |
Thanks for putting words in my mouth.
My reasons for not voting for Corbyn were many, none of which were influenced by the right wing press or the right of Labour as I don't allow anyone to make my mind up for me and I make my mind up by what people do and say directly rather than listening to any kind of propganda.
But as I said, I've seen Jeremy Corbyn in action first hand where I was disappointed to see him playing the same games that any other politicians do, despite many calls that he was different and principled, I didn't like the way that he handled Brexit and was wishy washy on it (and I've seen that first hand too).
Also there are two general factions in the Labour party, the left and the more moderates in the center, anyone calling anyone in the Labour party right wing needs to seriously get their political spectrum calibrated in their head as it's clearly faulty, but it's little wonder when the left and right of the country have literally spent years painting everyone as one or the other.
I would not vote for a right wing party. I have lived in two countries and never have, I consider myself centrist and always have done. I have never voted Tory and never would because they have nothing to offer people who are not those who are super rich or have grew up with inherited wealth. They have no clue of what the average man on the street feels. Just look at how out of touch they are with the cost of living.
As for what politics and policies does the country need, ask 100 different people and you would get many different answers, I'm not naïve enough to think that what I say is right and what everyone else says is wrong, I respect people have different opinions though, but it's clear that you don't | |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:24 - May 7 with 570 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:20 - May 7 by ZXBlue |
yes its gone. Its even harder now. Do you really think someone like Burnham would secure the votes int eh south, scotland and so on needed to win a GE? If so, why? Because that has has not happened in 50 years! |
Labour need an idea/vision and to appeal on the basis of how neoliberalism has failed far too many.
In the absence of anything like that and just tinkering with the status quo they’re not providing an alternative. But also they’re losing ground electorally.
I have no clue what you think you’ll achieve by sticking your fingers in your ears and ploughing on anyway. | |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:25 - May 7 with 559 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:07 - May 7 by lowhouseblue |
that would be the first one he lost? the one where may self-imploded? |
That’s the one. The election preceded two months earlier by the local elections that gave a vote share to the Tories that, if repeated in the general election, would have resulted in a landslide of over 100 seats.
That emboldened May to put forward a manifesto as suicidal as Foot’s from 1983.
And she still got 2 million more votes than Cameron did in 2015. |  |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:27 - May 7 with 553 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:20 - May 7 by DublinBlue84 |
Thanks for putting words in my mouth.
My reasons for not voting for Corbyn were many, none of which were influenced by the right wing press or the right of Labour as I don't allow anyone to make my mind up for me and I make my mind up by what people do and say directly rather than listening to any kind of propganda.
But as I said, I've seen Jeremy Corbyn in action first hand where I was disappointed to see him playing the same games that any other politicians do, despite many calls that he was different and principled, I didn't like the way that he handled Brexit and was wishy washy on it (and I've seen that first hand too).
Also there are two general factions in the Labour party, the left and the more moderates in the center, anyone calling anyone in the Labour party right wing needs to seriously get their political spectrum calibrated in their head as it's clearly faulty, but it's little wonder when the left and right of the country have literally spent years painting everyone as one or the other.
I would not vote for a right wing party. I have lived in two countries and never have, I consider myself centrist and always have done. I have never voted Tory and never would because they have nothing to offer people who are not those who are super rich or have grew up with inherited wealth. They have no clue of what the average man on the street feels. Just look at how out of touch they are with the cost of living.
As for what politics and policies does the country need, ask 100 different people and you would get many different answers, I'm not naïve enough to think that what I say is right and what everyone else says is wrong, I respect people have different opinions though, but it's clear that you don't |
We’ll have to agree to disagree then.
I disagree with almost all of that framing. | |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:30 - May 7 with 544 views | DublinBlue84 |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:18 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
That’s gone now. Blair still needed Labour heartlands in Scotland and the North but they’ve gone as a result of shifting right and trying to stay there.
Definition of insanity to pretend that’s still the right way forward 20-odd years later. The results speak for themselves bar 2017. |
Tony Blair won three elections, which is some achievement if you claim people hated his policies as they were too right wing What did he do? Hold a gun to voters head and tell them to vote for him or he'd shoot?
Gordon, Ed and Jeremy were certainly left of Blair and they lost elections. I know that you have a problem with digesting facts as you allow your political views and dogma and emotions to prevent you having rational judgement, but these simply are the factors of the matter.
So to sum up the last 50 years in labour in FACTS rather than emotion:
- The person the furthest to the left (Corbyn)has Labour's worst result in that time and has lost 2/2 elections
- The person the closest to the centre has won 3/3 elections.
- All the people to the left of Blair have lost an election.
But apparently still Corbyn is the hero and Blair is the enemy. I mean you don't need to be a rocked scientist really to work out the pattern that is above, but I know some people just can't see the word from the trees because of the massive blinkers they are wearing. [Post edited 7 May 2022 11:32]
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:32 - May 7 with 535 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:12 - May 7 by ZXBlue |
Its a lovely idea. History is against you. Noone other than Blair has won an election for labour in 50 years. FIFTY!
Burnham would, I strongly suspect, result int eh same outcome, because he would not be attractive to large swatehrs of the country who would need persuading to shift allegiance.
But thats what you want. An ideologically favourable underdog who can lose, so you can howl at the moon about how its all so unfair. [Post edited 7 May 2022 11:14]
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Aside from Blair the last Labour MP to have won a General Election was born over 100 years ago.
Having said that, I do believe there should be a harder left (Edit - or as was just mentioned a more Social Democrat Scandinavian option) but I'm not sure Labour is that vehicle. [Post edited 7 May 2022 17:11]
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:36 - May 7 with 514 views | ZXBlue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:24 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
Labour need an idea/vision and to appeal on the basis of how neoliberalism has failed far too many.
In the absence of anything like that and just tinkering with the status quo they’re not providing an alternative. But also they’re losing ground electorally.
I have no clue what you think you’ll achieve by sticking your fingers in your ears and ploughing on anyway. |
Bizarre. Only one person with fingers in ears. Whenever we get to the nub of the issue you sidestep and deflect. Whether its conscious or sub conscious, you get the point, but dont want to address it head on. | | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:36 - May 7 with 510 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:30 - May 7 by DublinBlue84 |
Tony Blair won three elections, which is some achievement if you claim people hated his policies as they were too right wing What did he do? Hold a gun to voters head and tell them to vote for him or he'd shoot?
Gordon, Ed and Jeremy were certainly left of Blair and they lost elections. I know that you have a problem with digesting facts as you allow your political views and dogma and emotions to prevent you having rational judgement, but these simply are the factors of the matter.
So to sum up the last 50 years in labour in FACTS rather than emotion:
- The person the furthest to the left (Corbyn)has Labour's worst result in that time and has lost 2/2 elections
- The person the closest to the centre has won 3/3 elections.
- All the people to the left of Blair have lost an election.
But apparently still Corbyn is the hero and Blair is the enemy. I mean you don't need to be a rocked scientist really to work out the pattern that is above, but I know some people just can't see the word from the trees because of the massive blinkers they are wearing. [Post edited 7 May 2022 11:32]
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Delusional. | |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:39 - May 7 with 503 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:36 - May 7 by ZXBlue |
Bizarre. Only one person with fingers in ears. Whenever we get to the nub of the issue you sidestep and deflect. Whether its conscious or sub conscious, you get the point, but dont want to address it head on. |
Why does everyone avoid 2017?
Put that in some reasonable context of the last 20 years of Labour losing its way and its voters. Otherwise I can only think you’re sticking your fingers in your ears. | |
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:40 - May 7 with 499 views | DublinBlue84 |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:24 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
Labour need an idea/vision and to appeal on the basis of how neoliberalism has failed far too many.
In the absence of anything like that and just tinkering with the status quo they’re not providing an alternative. But also they’re losing ground electorally.
I have no clue what you think you’ll achieve by sticking your fingers in your ears and ploughing on anyway. |
"But also they’re losing ground electorally."
Something we agree on. In the last general election, Labour lost a huge amount of ground. They had their worse result for 84 (EIGHTY FOUR) years.
Remind me, who was the leader at that point?
In case you hadn't noticed, there hasn't been an election since 2019 and Labour are now polling higher than they did at that general election. But instead carry on spreading your propaganda and skewed views that have no basis on reality. [Post edited 7 May 2022 11:48]
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:43 - May 7 with 488 views | DublinBlue84 |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:39 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
Why does everyone avoid 2017?
Put that in some reasonable context of the last 20 years of Labour losing its way and its voters. Otherwise I can only think you’re sticking your fingers in your ears. |
Why do you ignore 2019? Isn't that the biggest question.
Your glorious leader had the worst result for
EIGHTY FOUR YEARS
He handed the Tories a massive majority, which has saw 20,000 people be abandoned to their death to the virus in care homes, our independent institutions crushed, gerrymandering, dismantling of the NHS, huge fraud over COVID, a cost of living crisis, lies, dishonesty and the biggest out of touch Government we have ever had. [Post edited 7 May 2022 11:43]
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| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:44 - May 7 with 485 views | ZXBlue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:36 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
Delusional. |
Almost every part of that "delusional" post comprises of factual statements. | | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:45 - May 7 with 482 views | ZXBlue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:39 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
Why does everyone avoid 2017?
Put that in some reasonable context of the last 20 years of Labour losing its way and its voters. Otherwise I can only think you’re sticking your fingers in your ears. |
2017 was a defeat, by some considerable distance! | | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:46 - May 7 with 480 views | ZXBlue |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:43 - May 7 by DublinBlue84 |
Why do you ignore 2019? Isn't that the biggest question.
Your glorious leader had the worst result for
EIGHTY FOUR YEARS
He handed the Tories a massive majority, which has saw 20,000 people be abandoned to their death to the virus in care homes, our independent institutions crushed, gerrymandering, dismantling of the NHS, huge fraud over COVID, a cost of living crisis, lies, dishonesty and the biggest out of touch Government we have ever had. [Post edited 7 May 2022 11:43]
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Indeed. That dogmatic approach has created a huge majority for a party which has since actively undermined the rule of law, basic standards of integrity in office, fundamental constituional conventions and so on. | | | |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:47 - May 7 with 479 views | HARRY10 |
| Labour ‘figures’ saying Starmer must resign on 11:25 - May 7 by GlasgowBlue |
That’s the one. The election preceded two months earlier by the local elections that gave a vote share to the Tories that, if repeated in the general election, would have resulted in a landslide of over 100 seats.
That emboldened May to put forward a manifesto as suicidal as Foot’s from 1983.
And she still got 2 million more votes than Cameron did in 2015. |
"That emboldened May to put forward a manifesto as suicidal as Foot’s from 1983."
eh ?
That has been explained - simply including stuff that could be traded away with the LibDems, should a coalition follow.... do try to keep up. It also highlights one of the obvious flaws with the PR guff.
I doubt most are even aware of what each parties manifesto states - if so Brexit would never have happened, given how it was full of misrepresentations, and absurd claims that could not be delivered.
Most vote on a combination of gut feeling, and how they perceive themselves - and will take on board only the things that reinforce those views.
Understanding how that 'gut feeling' is arrived at is the holy grail of politics, but rational thought and reasoned argument are usually -way down on any list of possible causes. | | | |
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