| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 11:39 - Sep 27 with 1313 views | itfcjoe |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 10:10 - Sep 27 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I'M like debating with a child?! You're the one who brought in pregnant women and said "well cocaine's worse for pregnant women, so you're wrong!" I never said anything about pregnant women. You posted it because you were desperately scrabbling around to find a study where cocaine is worse and that's all you could come up with. There are probably lots of things that are worse for pregnant women, but it's not something we were debating!
I've put up links to where alcohol and tobacco are both worse than cannabis and cocaine but people just say "well it's more prevalent, so that's why" (even if you'd have thought these reports factored that in).
The only way cocaine will be as prevalent as tobacco is if it's legalised and sold in somewhere like Boots - and would thus be regulated and not cut with carcinogens... so still wouldn't be causing cancer at the rate tobacco does!
EDIT: Here's another report, from just 4 years ago.
"Worldwide, alcohol and tobacco cause much more death, disability and addiction than illegal drugs, according to a new review."
https://www.livescience.com/62540-drug-threats-health.html
Again, though, I'll be told "well it's because alcohol and tobacco are more prevalent" so without all things being equal this debate can't really go anywhere...
Actually, I just had a thought. Where we can negate the "prevalence" argument is Portugal. Obviously a small sample compared to the world, but "the number of deaths caused by illicit drug use... have decreased significantly since 2001" (when illegal drugs were decriminalised).
So despite drugs being legal, drug deaths have DECREASED.
https://transformdrugs.org/blog/the-success-of-portugals-decriminalisation-polic
Here's the evidence you wanted, Joe.
[Post edited 27 Sep 2022 11:33]
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You have just ended up with a mass of false equivalences and putting words into my mouth that I am not saying - your last post an absolute mess in that regard.
You put a link up which said that alcohol/smoking causes more damage - but the summary of the post even says its because of the much greater prevalence
You put another post up where the link is dead, myself and another poster noted this when we tried to look at it but it was just left
I posted the only journal I could find where it actually compared cocaine and smoking when done exclusively, I couldn't find anything else on this but this one did show that cocaine was worse for health of new born babies if done by pregnant women - but as I noted this one is just the only one I could find not proof of anything.
But the goalposts moved early in the debate when we were comparing football fans on an all dayer doing coke to a few ad execs just having a night out in a bar.
I've even said in a post earlier there are massive holes in the Govt's drug policy, as there was with covid policies - recreational drug users are just lucky that it isn't policed as heavily as the covid restrictions were or there would be lots of middle class people with criminal records |  |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 13:30 - Sep 27 with 1256 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 11:36 - Sep 27 by unbelievablue |
You clearly have an agenda which is a shame because I think you are on to something re: policy.
The biggest issue is you move the goalposts so often it's impossible to have a reasoned debate. You posted links and argued that alcohol was more harmful than crack cocaine and heroin, now it's 'cocaine and cannabis'. When I and others pointed out that the harm level is because of prevalence, you ignore, or (as above) seem to get confused about it.
[Post edited 27 Sep 2022 11:37]
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No, I've mentioned cannabis once in the post you're replying to. I haven't moved any goal posts. Alcohol and tobacco vs illegal drugs is the wider debate, and others brought cannabis in because I've focused on cocaine (as that was what was said Town supporters have been doing).
And no, I don't have an agenda either. I just know the facts.
I've shown that in Portugal where drugs are readily available, cocaine deaths have DROPPED. That's the best I can give against the "prevalence" argument which I have neither ignored or got confused about.
Nice edit. No I haven't argued that alcohol was more harmful than crack cocaine and heroin. Not once. Feel free to link to where I have... |  |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 13:32 - Sep 27 with 1243 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 11:38 - Sep 27 by unbelievablue |
"Obviously a small sample compared to the world, but "the number of deaths caused by illicit drug use... have decreased significantly since 2001" (when illegal drugs were decriminalised)."
How can deaths caused by illicit drug decrease significantly when they aren't illicit anymore? |
I presume it means drugs that are still illicit in other countries, but regardless, you know what they're talking about. I can only assume you're just trolling now. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 13:34 - Sep 27 with 1241 views | XYZ |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 11:38 - Sep 27 by unbelievablue |
"Obviously a small sample compared to the world, but "the number of deaths caused by illicit drug use... have decreased significantly since 2001" (when illegal drugs were decriminalised)."
How can deaths caused by illicit drug decrease significantly when they aren't illicit anymore? |
Cute point but rather cheapens your other comments on this thread. |  | | |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 13:46 - Sep 27 with 1226 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 11:39 - Sep 27 by itfcjoe |
You have just ended up with a mass of false equivalences and putting words into my mouth that I am not saying - your last post an absolute mess in that regard.
You put a link up which said that alcohol/smoking causes more damage - but the summary of the post even says its because of the much greater prevalence
You put another post up where the link is dead, myself and another poster noted this when we tried to look at it but it was just left
I posted the only journal I could find where it actually compared cocaine and smoking when done exclusively, I couldn't find anything else on this but this one did show that cocaine was worse for health of new born babies if done by pregnant women - but as I noted this one is just the only one I could find not proof of anything.
But the goalposts moved early in the debate when we were comparing football fans on an all dayer doing coke to a few ad execs just having a night out in a bar.
I've even said in a post earlier there are massive holes in the Govt's drug policy, as there was with covid policies - recreational drug users are just lucky that it isn't policed as heavily as the covid restrictions were or there would be lots of middle class people with criminal records |
You're doing what Glassers used to do - throw a load of sh!t, repeat a load of stuff we've already read... all in order to avoid the points made. There's no false equivalences. And what words have I put in your mouth? That's twice you've accused me of that but I've still yet to see what words and where.
It's not my fault the link was broken... but regardless of that the bit I quoted was still readable, and still made the point, so you're just trying to avoid it by focusing on the broken bit.
I've show that despite being legal and readily available, cocaine deaths have FALLEN in Portugal. Deaths through alcohol and tobacco were already way ahead of cocaine. Now anyone can get all of them (in Portugal) and instead of rising to catch up with alcohol and tobacco, cocaine deaths are dropping.
I can't do any more to prove that alcohol and tobacco is worse for you than cocaine than that. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 14:26 - Sep 27 with 1194 views | itfcjoe |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 13:46 - Sep 27 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You're doing what Glassers used to do - throw a load of sh!t, repeat a load of stuff we've already read... all in order to avoid the points made. There's no false equivalences. And what words have I put in your mouth? That's twice you've accused me of that but I've still yet to see what words and where.
It's not my fault the link was broken... but regardless of that the bit I quoted was still readable, and still made the point, so you're just trying to avoid it by focusing on the broken bit.
I've show that despite being legal and readily available, cocaine deaths have FALLEN in Portugal. Deaths through alcohol and tobacco were already way ahead of cocaine. Now anyone can get all of them (in Portugal) and instead of rising to catch up with alcohol and tobacco, cocaine deaths are dropping.
I can't do any more to prove that alcohol and tobacco is worse for you than cocaine than that. |
Words in my mouth - ok here's your post:
"I've posted plenty of links and people like yourself have just dismissed them. Can't be bothered to spend more time on this frankly.
You'd posted 2 links, one of which was all to do with prevalence in society and the other of which was a dead link. It may not be your fault the link is broken but it shows you've just given a cursory glance at something rather than checked it does actually back up your point
I know the facts and whatever I post it won't be enough for you "Drugs are bad mkay" types so I won't waste any more of my time.
I haven't commented on my view of drugs, other than saying that in football crowds they are a reason for the worse behaviour. I've said there are clear holes in Govt drug policy
Keep believing the government on which drugs are bad and which are fine, that always works out well.
Again, a totally false point misrepresenting my view deliberately because you've bunkered down so far into your position
Also on last post:
I've show that despite being legal and readily available, cocaine deaths have FALLEN in Portugal. Deaths through alcohol and tobacco were already way ahead of cocaine. Now anyone can get all of them (in Portugal) and instead of rising to catch up with alcohol and tobacco, cocaine deaths are dropping.
You haven't shown anything about cocaine deaths on there, as far as I can see all the data is just limited to 'drugs' and even the study talks about it being because they are not criminalised; nothing to do with the safety or not or the health outcome of the actual drug. [Post edited 27 Sep 2022 14:30]
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 15:41 - Sep 27 with 1162 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 14:26 - Sep 27 by itfcjoe |
Words in my mouth - ok here's your post:
"I've posted plenty of links and people like yourself have just dismissed them. Can't be bothered to spend more time on this frankly.
You'd posted 2 links, one of which was all to do with prevalence in society and the other of which was a dead link. It may not be your fault the link is broken but it shows you've just given a cursory glance at something rather than checked it does actually back up your point
I know the facts and whatever I post it won't be enough for you "Drugs are bad mkay" types so I won't waste any more of my time.
I haven't commented on my view of drugs, other than saying that in football crowds they are a reason for the worse behaviour. I've said there are clear holes in Govt drug policy
Keep believing the government on which drugs are bad and which are fine, that always works out well.
Again, a totally false point misrepresenting my view deliberately because you've bunkered down so far into your position
Also on last post:
I've show that despite being legal and readily available, cocaine deaths have FALLEN in Portugal. Deaths through alcohol and tobacco were already way ahead of cocaine. Now anyone can get all of them (in Portugal) and instead of rising to catch up with alcohol and tobacco, cocaine deaths are dropping.
You haven't shown anything about cocaine deaths on there, as far as I can see all the data is just limited to 'drugs' and even the study talks about it being because they are not criminalised; nothing to do with the safety or not or the health outcome of the actual drug. [Post edited 27 Sep 2022 14:30]
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Right.
On point one I haven't put words in your mouth. You did dismiss the links. It's a bit annoying once through to the website that the link to the full report is broken, but the quotes I used were before you click on the full link. I knew the link was broken, but I figured everyone can see the pertinent quote so what does it matter?
On points two and three it was my opinion that you are one of the "Drugs are bad mkay" types" who take what the government thinks is bad and fine (going from your replies thus far). Apologies if this isn't the case. I'm not sure it's putting words in your mouth though. I haven't attributed any words to you, I've just given my impression on the type of person you are.
Cocaine is within their definition of 'drugs' and all drug deaths have gone down since legalisation. Therefore, logically, cocaine deaths have also gone down. If there were an anomaly - if any particular drug had seen deaths rise - they'd have mention that as a caveat to the figure. "The study talks about it being because they are not criminalised; nothing to do with the safety" - but again, logically, there is much more access to drugs once they are legalised... but the deaths have still gone down. So that DOES say something about their safety. If drugs such as cocaine are as available as tobacco, but the death rates drop rather than race up to meet tobacco, then you have to conclude cocaine is safer.
The report isn't perfect - you have to use a bit of logic - but I still think it's a good way to assess things. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 15:46 - Sep 27 with 1146 views | itfcjoe |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 15:41 - Sep 27 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Right.
On point one I haven't put words in your mouth. You did dismiss the links. It's a bit annoying once through to the website that the link to the full report is broken, but the quotes I used were before you click on the full link. I knew the link was broken, but I figured everyone can see the pertinent quote so what does it matter?
On points two and three it was my opinion that you are one of the "Drugs are bad mkay" types" who take what the government thinks is bad and fine (going from your replies thus far). Apologies if this isn't the case. I'm not sure it's putting words in your mouth though. I haven't attributed any words to you, I've just given my impression on the type of person you are.
Cocaine is within their definition of 'drugs' and all drug deaths have gone down since legalisation. Therefore, logically, cocaine deaths have also gone down. If there were an anomaly - if any particular drug had seen deaths rise - they'd have mention that as a caveat to the figure. "The study talks about it being because they are not criminalised; nothing to do with the safety" - but again, logically, there is much more access to drugs once they are legalised... but the deaths have still gone down. So that DOES say something about their safety. If drugs such as cocaine are as available as tobacco, but the death rates drop rather than race up to meet tobacco, then you have to conclude cocaine is safer.
The report isn't perfect - you have to use a bit of logic - but I still think it's a good way to assess things. |
But the study doesn't show anything of the sort, you've interpreted it that way because that's what you want it to say - the drug related deaths are from a hugely wide spectrum from reading it and not purely on usage
Until there is some evidence that the exclusive use of cocaine vs the exclusive use of smoking then it's p155ing in the wind, and that is before you even look at the habits of those using it compared to smokers. Everyone knows smoking is bad for your health, but I can't imagine that being a social smoker vs a social cocaine user is going to make a jot of difference to long term health as both would be utterly negligible | |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 16:14 - Sep 27 with 1097 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 15:46 - Sep 27 by itfcjoe |
But the study doesn't show anything of the sort, you've interpreted it that way because that's what you want it to say - the drug related deaths are from a hugely wide spectrum from reading it and not purely on usage
Until there is some evidence that the exclusive use of cocaine vs the exclusive use of smoking then it's p155ing in the wind, and that is before you even look at the habits of those using it compared to smokers. Everyone knows smoking is bad for your health, but I can't imagine that being a social smoker vs a social cocaine user is going to make a jot of difference to long term health as both would be utterly negligible |
"the drug related deaths are from a hugely wide spectrum from reading it and not purely on usage"
I don't know where you've got this from. I see nothing in the report to suggest the deaths aren't from usage.
I also disagree that the long term health problems of being a social smoker are "utterly negligible." There is lots of evidence of people contracting cancer from passive smoking - people who aren't even social smokers.
I fear we're going to have to agree to disagree as whatever report I find you're going to find something to pick at. I studied this many years ago so I know what I'm talking about, but unfortunately I don't have access to the reports that would conclusively prove it to you.
EDIT: If we come back to where we both entered this debate, Noggin asked "Does a line of powder make people violent though? I would say alcohol is the choice of drug for those wanting to get aggressive."
You replied: "100% it does."
I countered that, because you're wrong. And that's what led me to think you're a "drugs are bad, do what the government says" type because it's just ignorant to the facts. A line of coke doesn't make you aggressive. It was you who moved the goalposts by introducing mixing it with alcohol and "being on it all day." If people are drinking all day and doing any other drug as well then yes, I agree, that could cause them to be violent.
My point was it's not really the coke doing that.
[Post edited 27 Sep 2022 16:30]
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| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 16:27 - Sep 27 with 1073 views | itfcjoe |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 16:14 - Sep 27 by The_Flashing_Smile |
"the drug related deaths are from a hugely wide spectrum from reading it and not purely on usage"
I don't know where you've got this from. I see nothing in the report to suggest the deaths aren't from usage.
I also disagree that the long term health problems of being a social smoker are "utterly negligible." There is lots of evidence of people contracting cancer from passive smoking - people who aren't even social smokers.
I fear we're going to have to agree to disagree as whatever report I find you're going to find something to pick at. I studied this many years ago so I know what I'm talking about, but unfortunately I don't have access to the reports that would conclusively prove it to you.
EDIT: If we come back to where we both entered this debate, Noggin asked "Does a line of powder make people violent though? I would say alcohol is the choice of drug for those wanting to get aggressive."
You replied: "100% it does."
I countered that, because you're wrong. And that's what led me to think you're a "drugs are bad, do what the government says" type because it's just ignorant to the facts. A line of coke doesn't make you aggressive. It was you who moved the goalposts by introducing mixing it with alcohol and "being on it all day." If people are drinking all day and doing any other drug as well then yes, I agree, that could cause them to be violent.
My point was it's not really the coke doing that.
[Post edited 27 Sep 2022 16:30]
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It's literally from the link you've sent:
The number of deaths caused by illicit drug use is a therefore a key indicator, and as this chart shows, they have decreased significantly since 2001. It’s important to stress that this decline is likely down to the expansion in harm reduction measures that accompanied the decriminalisation policy, not the decriminalisation itself
i.e It's the policy decisions that are affecting things, not the actual drug used - so there's no real look at the actual health risks of using drugs like there is more widely for alcohol and smoking because they are both far more prevalent.
The rate of cocaine related deaths has gone up hugely in last couple of years, and is now at it's highest rate since records began in 1993 - and presumably these are direct deaths from usage opposed to long term health issues but not a huge amount of data around it
EDIT TO YOUR EDIT:
The thread title is "Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season" so think talking about it in a football sense is obvious.
Plus we have had people drinking alcohol excessively at games forever, but something has changed now - and to me it's a combination of the political environment and the fact that cocaine has basically been legalised and is absolutely rife at games now [Post edited 27 Sep 2022 16:33]
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 17:27 - Sep 27 with 1019 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 16:27 - Sep 27 by itfcjoe |
It's literally from the link you've sent:
The number of deaths caused by illicit drug use is a therefore a key indicator, and as this chart shows, they have decreased significantly since 2001. It’s important to stress that this decline is likely down to the expansion in harm reduction measures that accompanied the decriminalisation policy, not the decriminalisation itself
i.e It's the policy decisions that are affecting things, not the actual drug used - so there's no real look at the actual health risks of using drugs like there is more widely for alcohol and smoking because they are both far more prevalent.
The rate of cocaine related deaths has gone up hugely in last couple of years, and is now at it's highest rate since records began in 1993 - and presumably these are direct deaths from usage opposed to long term health issues but not a huge amount of data around it
EDIT TO YOUR EDIT:
The thread title is "Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season" so think talking about it in a football sense is obvious.
Plus we have had people drinking alcohol excessively at games forever, but something has changed now - and to me it's a combination of the political environment and the fact that cocaine has basically been legalised and is absolutely rife at games now [Post edited 27 Sep 2022 16:33]
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You've interpreted that differently to me. We don't know what they mean by "Harm reduction measures" but given the drugs are now under control I'd have thought purity will be one of them. So yes, it would be the actual drug used. As I mentioned earlier, if the drugs are controlled they aren't going to be cut with carcinogenics, for example. So there will be less cases of cancer.
Another harm reduction measure might be educating people as to what is too much. Or what mixes badly. Certainly doing too much of ANYTHING will harm you. I'm not saying drugs are completely safe. You obviously have to have a bit of common sense and education. Thing is, these "harm reduction measures' presumably exist around alcohol too, and that's still a greater killer than coke.
With the best will in the world "Harm reduction measures" won't cut deaths if the thing itself is a killer.
Seems to me that taken in a sensible way - which is all we can assume they mean by "Harm reduction measures" - drugs can be made a lot safer. That is clearly working in Portugal. We're all educated about alcohol and tobacco but that isn't dramatically cutting those deaths.
"The rate of cocaine related deaths has gone up hugely in last couple of years." Where have you got this from? Not in Portugal they haven't. I presume you mean in the UK? Or Europe? The rest of the world? Either way, it shows Portugal's approach is working, and drugs can be made a hell of a lot safer if controlled. Alcohol and tobacco is controlled, but they are still much bigger killers than illicit drugs. If everything is legalised and controlled, on an equal footing, alcohol and tobacco remain worse for your health.
Cocaine hasn't "basically been legalised". You still have to buy it from a drug dealer. And it will still be cut with all sorts. If the police are 'turning a blind eye' more, but the drugs are still controlled by the drug dealers, then there's your perfect storm of what's wrong. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 17:29 - Sep 27 with 1014 views | bungaytractor |
Some of you really need to chill out lol maybe smoke some weed and have a bowl of chips lmao | | | |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 17:31 - Sep 27 with 1010 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 17:29 - Sep 27 by bungaytractor |
Some of you really need to chill out lol maybe smoke some weed and have a bowl of chips lmao |
It's an interesting and thought-provoking debate. Well the bits that don't include you. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 18:26 - Sep 27 with 955 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 17:27 - Sep 27 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You've interpreted that differently to me. We don't know what they mean by "Harm reduction measures" but given the drugs are now under control I'd have thought purity will be one of them. So yes, it would be the actual drug used. As I mentioned earlier, if the drugs are controlled they aren't going to be cut with carcinogenics, for example. So there will be less cases of cancer.
Another harm reduction measure might be educating people as to what is too much. Or what mixes badly. Certainly doing too much of ANYTHING will harm you. I'm not saying drugs are completely safe. You obviously have to have a bit of common sense and education. Thing is, these "harm reduction measures' presumably exist around alcohol too, and that's still a greater killer than coke.
With the best will in the world "Harm reduction measures" won't cut deaths if the thing itself is a killer.
Seems to me that taken in a sensible way - which is all we can assume they mean by "Harm reduction measures" - drugs can be made a lot safer. That is clearly working in Portugal. We're all educated about alcohol and tobacco but that isn't dramatically cutting those deaths.
"The rate of cocaine related deaths has gone up hugely in last couple of years." Where have you got this from? Not in Portugal they haven't. I presume you mean in the UK? Or Europe? The rest of the world? Either way, it shows Portugal's approach is working, and drugs can be made a hell of a lot safer if controlled. Alcohol and tobacco is controlled, but they are still much bigger killers than illicit drugs. If everything is legalised and controlled, on an equal footing, alcohol and tobacco remain worse for your health.
Cocaine hasn't "basically been legalised". You still have to buy it from a drug dealer. And it will still be cut with all sorts. If the police are 'turning a blind eye' more, but the drugs are still controlled by the drug dealers, then there's your perfect storm of what's wrong. |
You do realise that drugs aren’t actually legal in Portugal and to buy them you still have to go through drug dealers, right? |  |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 19:12 - Sep 27 with 924 views | Leaky |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 07:37 - Sep 27 by bluelagos |
What is undeniable, is that the cocaine use in the UK is in the hands of criminals and there is thus lots of unsavoury aspects to that criminal activity.
So there are a couple of solutions. One is to try and stop the demand for drugs. Good luck with that, but that policy/strategy is clearly failing.
The other is to consider legalising drugs, especialy those whose harmful effects are not a million miles away from alcohol. Then you reduce all the criminal activity you describe,
Our current approach isn't working, just as prohibition didn't work, instead than creating a market that criminals exploit. |
well at least we can tell who the junkies on here are |  | | |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 19:42 - Sep 27 with 882 views | noggin |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 19:12 - Sep 27 by Leaky |
well at least we can tell who the junkies on here are |
I doubt there's any junkies here. They would have sold their phone long ago. |  |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 06:56 - Sep 28 with 814 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 18:26 - Sep 27 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
You do realise that drugs aren’t actually legal in Portugal and to buy them you still have to go through drug dealers, right? |
They're decriminalsed but I must admit I didn't know how they're distributed.
Ok, so purity isn't one of the harm reducing measures. Which actually boosts my argument that alcohol and tobacco are worse. They're controlled - you know exactly what's going in them. You still don't with drugs, and yet drug deaths are dropping. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 06:57 - Sep 28 with 813 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 19:12 - Sep 27 by Leaky |
well at least we can tell who the junkies on here are |
Really? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 07:38 - Sep 28 with 788 views | bluelagos |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 19:12 - Sep 27 by Leaky |
well at least we can tell who the junkies on here are |
You are proper making yourself look like a dick with comments like that. |  |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 14:14 - Sep 28 with 683 views | unbelievablue |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 13:30 - Sep 27 by The_Flashing_Smile |
No, I've mentioned cannabis once in the post you're replying to. I haven't moved any goal posts. Alcohol and tobacco vs illegal drugs is the wider debate, and others brought cannabis in because I've focused on cocaine (as that was what was said Town supporters have been doing).
And no, I don't have an agenda either. I just know the facts.
I've shown that in Portugal where drugs are readily available, cocaine deaths have DROPPED. That's the best I can give against the "prevalence" argument which I have neither ignored or got confused about.
Nice edit. No I haven't argued that alcohol was more harmful than crack cocaine and heroin. Not once. Feel free to link to where I have... |
"Fine, it's the first article I came to, there are plenty of others.
Here's one that puts alcohol as way more harmful than crack cocaine and heroin;
http://www.drugs.ie/news/article/alcohol_more_dangerous_than_cocaine_or_heroin
A new study found alcohol was the most dangerous of 20 legal and illegal drugs when the two criteria of harm to the user and harm to others were combined.
Alcohol is more dangerous than crack cocaine and heroin when damage to users themselves and to wider society are combined, a study has found."
Is this not you doing that? If not, what are you linking to this stuff for?
[Post edited 28 Sep 2022 14:19]
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 14:15 - Sep 28 with 682 views | unbelievablue |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 13:34 - Sep 27 by XYZ |
Cute point but rather cheapens your other comments on this thread. |
I didn't mean it to cheapen it - it seemed a contradiction in terms, is all. | |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 14:26 - Sep 28 with 631 views | Leaky |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 07:38 - Sep 28 by bluelagos |
You are proper making yourself look like a dick with comments like that. |
Good to see I hit a nerve with a few here. | | | |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 14:27 - Sep 28 with 627 views | unbelievablue |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 14:26 - Sep 28 by Leaky |
Good to see I hit a nerve with a few here. |
Maybe don't call drug users junkies. | |
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| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 14:35 - Sep 28 with 622 views | Leaky |
While disorder at football is being discussed, a Spurs supporting mate was at a pub in Wembley, say's about a hundred German turned up and wrecked the place. I haven't seen this on any mention in the media about it wondered if it was true. | | | |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 14:36 - Sep 28 with 620 views | unbelievablue |
| Sharp rise in disorder at football games in England and Wales last season on 14:35 - Sep 28 by Leaky |
While disorder at football is being discussed, a Spurs supporting mate was at a pub in Wembley, say's about a hundred German turned up and wrecked the place. I haven't seen this on any mention in the media about it wondered if it was true. |
It's on literally every major news website if you google 'German fans'. | |
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