| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 18:03 - Jan 26 with 2416 views | Kievthegreat |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 13:22 - Jan 26 by GlasgowBlue |
It should be a rational debate. By the letter of the law this offender should serve time in a women's prison as they have transitioned and have a gender recognition certificate. This is how recent legislation is now falling apart because we have an an example of the concerns shown at the time. The offender was on remand in a women's prison and the Scottish government only folded on this after an outcry. |
But the legislation just passed has zero impact on this case unless of course you want to fight a Tory culture war angle.
The presence of a GRC does not automatically entail that that person will go to a prison of that gender. The decision about which side of the estate to place Trans prisoners is assessed on a case by case basis, weighing up the risks involved for all staff, the prison in question and the rest of the population at that establishment. Attempts to bring up the recently passed GRR is just whataboutery.
Maybe Nicola has leaned on the Scottish prison service to make clear what decision should be made with regards this person, but we'll never know. It may well have been the case that the prison service already judged her a high risk for a Women's prison and that they would only accept her post surgery (which she is apparently seeking). We don't know. |  | |  |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 18:04 - Jan 26 with 2416 views | Kievthegreat |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 13:32 - Jan 26 by itfcjoe |
Well guess the answer is make life uncomfortable for all the women in a prison if in a women's prison, or make it uncomfortable for the offender if put into a male prison.
I think when spelled out like that there should only be one answer - gender recognition certificate or not |
Comfort is irrelevent. The decision should be made (and thankfully is) made on important factors like risk and the safety of all involved. | | | |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 18:11 - Jan 26 with 2396 views | Kievthegreat |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 13:37 - Jan 26 by Ryorry |
Former Governor of the Scottish womens' prison in question just said on BBC R4 World At One that she thinks the answer should be separate wings for trans people, which seems sensible & practical to me. |
There are less than 20 trans people in prison in Scotland. It really doesn't seem practical at all to create a prison for 20 people (split again by transmen and transwomen presumably) when we already have systems to put people in the most appropriate establishment. | | | |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 18:48 - Jan 26 with 2333 views | lowhouseblue |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 13:22 - Jan 26 by GlasgowBlue |
It should be a rational debate. By the letter of the law this offender should serve time in a women's prison as they have transitioned and have a gender recognition certificate. This is how recent legislation is now falling apart because we have an an example of the concerns shown at the time. The offender was on remand in a women's prison and the Scottish government only folded on this after an outcry. |
i'm not sure that is the letter of the law. one of the exemptions under the equality act is prisons. a risk assessment would then be entirely proportionate and would in this case ensure that the person wasn't in a women's prison. equally they may well not be safe in a men's prison. they may need to be in a special unit. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 19:31 - Jan 26 with 2245 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 18:03 - Jan 26 by Kievthegreat |
But the legislation just passed has zero impact on this case unless of course you want to fight a Tory culture war angle.
The presence of a GRC does not automatically entail that that person will go to a prison of that gender. The decision about which side of the estate to place Trans prisoners is assessed on a case by case basis, weighing up the risks involved for all staff, the prison in question and the rest of the population at that establishment. Attempts to bring up the recently passed GRR is just whataboutery.
Maybe Nicola has leaned on the Scottish prison service to make clear what decision should be made with regards this person, but we'll never know. It may well have been the case that the prison service already judged her a high risk for a Women's prison and that they would only accept her post surgery (which she is apparently seeking). We don't know. |
She was already in a women’s prison. Cornton Vale in Stirling. This only came to light after the press highlighting it.
Had they not, she’d still be there. |  |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 19:43 - Jan 26 with 2201 views | Kievthegreat |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 19:31 - Jan 26 by GlasgowBlue |
She was already in a women’s prison. Cornton Vale in Stirling. This only came to light after the press highlighting it.
Had they not, she’d still be there. |
She's been there for 2 days, only since she was placed on remand pending sentencing. In that time she would have been segregated as part of the risk assessment while they determine the appropriate establishment for her to be placed in longer term. I'm pretty certain they'd have put in place a specific plan for her because she is a high profile case with very different circumstances to most criminals in that establishment.
Now it may have been that media pressure led to political pressure (it wouldn't surprise me) and that lead to today's decision. As I said, we can never fully know. However I think that would highlight a major failing. The prison service should be allowed to make it's assessment impartially. As it stands, this could well have been their preferred course of action, but it will be seen as a political decision regardless.
Also, still nothing to do with GRR. | | | |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 19:44 - Jan 26 with 2198 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 19:31 - Jan 26 by GlasgowBlue |
She was already in a women’s prison. Cornton Vale in Stirling. This only came to light after the press highlighting it.
Had they not, she’d still be there. |
The Guardian’s reporting she was held in isolation while normal due process was followed to review the risks and decide where to place her. Doesn’t sound like it was a done deal before Sturgeon’s intervention. I don’t know if that’s right though. |  |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 20:24 - Jan 26 with 2128 views | HARRY10 |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 18:11 - Jan 26 by Kievthegreat |
There are less than 20 trans people in prison in Scotland. It really doesn't seem practical at all to create a prison for 20 people (split again by transmen and transwomen presumably) when we already have systems to put people in the most appropriate establishment. |
Nobody is taking about any seperate prisons.
These places are built to be run9internally) autonomously.
You can be in the same prison and have as little contact with other wings as you have with the outside world, in factr due to visiting, far less |  | | |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 21:08 - Jan 26 with 2082 views | Kievthegreat |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 20:24 - Jan 26 by HARRY10 |
Nobody is taking about any seperate prisons.
These places are built to be run9internally) autonomously.
You can be in the same prison and have as little contact with other wings as you have with the outside world, in factr due to visiting, far less |
I did misread Ryorry's post and read Wing as prison, but it's still difficult.
Trans prisoners will still need access to education, facilities, etc... Unless every activity is segregated, prisoners on different wings will still interact with each other. | | | |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 21:21 - Jan 26 with 2043 views | Ryorry |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 18:11 - Jan 26 by Kievthegreat |
There are less than 20 trans people in prison in Scotland. It really doesn't seem practical at all to create a prison for 20 people (split again by transmen and transwomen presumably) when we already have systems to put people in the most appropriate establishment. |
Clearly we don't "already have systems to put people in the most appropriate establishment", or the prisoner in question wouldn't have needed to be transferred, Sturgeon wouldn't have needed to make a statement, and this thread wouldn't exist.
Nobody's talking about building new prisons or even new wings - all it would need is internal reorganising with secure physical barriers to separate the trans prisoners from others. I don't know what the split currently is, but it could mean two separate spaces housing 10 -20 in each, which wouldn't be a huge ask since the prisoners would have needed cells elsewhere anyway. The point is the trans people wouldn't then be in unfair isolation, as they'd be able to associate with at least a few others. |  |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 21:33 - Jan 26 with 2007 views | lowhouseblue |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 21:21 - Jan 26 by Ryorry |
Clearly we don't "already have systems to put people in the most appropriate establishment", or the prisoner in question wouldn't have needed to be transferred, Sturgeon wouldn't have needed to make a statement, and this thread wouldn't exist.
Nobody's talking about building new prisons or even new wings - all it would need is internal reorganising with secure physical barriers to separate the trans prisoners from others. I don't know what the split currently is, but it could mean two separate spaces housing 10 -20 in each, which wouldn't be a huge ask since the prisoners would have needed cells elsewhere anyway. The point is the trans people wouldn't then be in unfair isolation, as they'd be able to associate with at least a few others. |
there are obviously trans women prisoners who are in prison for things other than sex crimes and who don't pose a risk to anyone. if they have a grc and pass a risk assessment then there isn't a great issue with trans women in a women's prison and the equality act would suggest that's where they should be. but in the current case the person is a multiple rapist and to quote the bbc article "Bryson decided to transition from a man to a woman while awaiting trial." which really ought to set alarm bells ringing.
the exec summary of this is a good read on the snp bill:
https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/The-Scottish-Gender-Rec | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 21:36 - Jan 26 with 1982 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 21:21 - Jan 26 by Ryorry |
Clearly we don't "already have systems to put people in the most appropriate establishment", or the prisoner in question wouldn't have needed to be transferred, Sturgeon wouldn't have needed to make a statement, and this thread wouldn't exist.
Nobody's talking about building new prisons or even new wings - all it would need is internal reorganising with secure physical barriers to separate the trans prisoners from others. I don't know what the split currently is, but it could mean two separate spaces housing 10 -20 in each, which wouldn't be a huge ask since the prisoners would have needed cells elsewhere anyway. The point is the trans people wouldn't then be in unfair isolation, as they'd be able to associate with at least a few others. |
There's an assumption here that this person was in their final destination. I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that's the case. I could be wrong, but it seems Sturgeon's intervention was while the assessment was still taking place (understandably if that is indeed the case, due to the recent attempt at law change and the way this has blown up). | |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 21:46 - Jan 26 with 1943 views | Kievthegreat |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 21:21 - Jan 26 by Ryorry |
Clearly we don't "already have systems to put people in the most appropriate establishment", or the prisoner in question wouldn't have needed to be transferred, Sturgeon wouldn't have needed to make a statement, and this thread wouldn't exist.
Nobody's talking about building new prisons or even new wings - all it would need is internal reorganising with secure physical barriers to separate the trans prisoners from others. I don't know what the split currently is, but it could mean two separate spaces housing 10 -20 in each, which wouldn't be a huge ask since the prisoners would have needed cells elsewhere anyway. The point is the trans people wouldn't then be in unfair isolation, as they'd be able to associate with at least a few others. |
We do have those proper systems. Those systems were still in motion before today. What's happened today is that those systems have become a political football where optics have taken priority over facts. [Post edited 26 Jan 2023 21:46]
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 08:34 - Jan 27 with 1786 views | itfcjoe |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 18:04 - Jan 26 by Kievthegreat |
Comfort is irrelevent. The decision should be made (and thankfully is) made on important factors like risk and the safety of all involved. |
Whilst 'comfort' may not be the right word, it's clearly going to be a factor in risk and safety and why this criminal should (and presumably would) have always been housed away from women |  |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 08:37 - Jan 27 with 1785 views | textbackup |
does it have a knob that could be used for further rapes whilst in a womens prison? if the answer is yes, send it to a mens prison. |  |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 08:40 - Jan 27 with 1761 views | itfcjoe |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 21:33 - Jan 26 by lowhouseblue |
there are obviously trans women prisoners who are in prison for things other than sex crimes and who don't pose a risk to anyone. if they have a grc and pass a risk assessment then there isn't a great issue with trans women in a women's prison and the equality act would suggest that's where they should be. but in the current case the person is a multiple rapist and to quote the bbc article "Bryson decided to transition from a man to a woman while awaiting trial." which really ought to set alarm bells ringing.
the exec summary of this is a good read on the snp bill:
https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/The-Scottish-Gender-Rec |
"Bryson decided to transition from a man to a woman while awaiting trial." which really ought to set alarm bells ringing.
I guess this is where a problem is going to exist, because if someone does this after committing a white collar crime, then what?
It's obviously never going to be cut and dry | |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 09:00 - Jan 27 with 1743 views | Kievthegreat |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 08:34 - Jan 27 by itfcjoe |
Whilst 'comfort' may not be the right word, it's clearly going to be a factor in risk and safety and why this criminal should (and presumably would) have always been housed away from women |
But the key is that you don't decide anything based on comfort. You make it on risk and needs of all involved, individual, population and staff. For instance, it's almost certain when this women goes to a male establishment that they won't share a cell because the risk of violence towards them is significantly higher than a male prisoner. Not sharing a cell is more comfortable than sharing, but the risk would be unacceptable. | | | |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 09:13 - Jan 27 with 1729 views | itfcjoe |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 09:00 - Jan 27 by Kievthegreat |
But the key is that you don't decide anything based on comfort. You make it on risk and needs of all involved, individual, population and staff. For instance, it's almost certain when this women goes to a male establishment that they won't share a cell because the risk of violence towards them is significantly higher than a male prisoner. Not sharing a cell is more comfortable than sharing, but the risk would be unacceptable. |
I don't really see how that differs from what I've said though, I think everyone is going to come to a pretty obvious conclusion re this prisoner and it's a fairly open shut case because of nature of crimes committed and the danger that they potentially pose. | |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 09:23 - Jan 27 with 1720 views | Kievthegreat |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 09:13 - Jan 27 by itfcjoe |
I don't really see how that differs from what I've said though, I think everyone is going to come to a pretty obvious conclusion re this prisoner and it's a fairly open shut case because of nature of crimes committed and the danger that they potentially pose. |
I'd probably agree in this case, she has a history of violent sexual crimes and until evidence to the contrary is provided will be viewed as a high risk. However it might be in 2 years time, potentially after having surgery, that she might want her situation reevaluated. At that point it could become less clear cut as to which is the correct establishment. Hence we should have a decision made by professionals rather than tabloid headlines and political expediency. | | | |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 09:28 - Jan 27 with 1714 views | DJR |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 21:46 - Jan 26 by Kievthegreat |
We do have those proper systems. Those systems were still in motion before today. What's happened today is that those systems have become a political football where optics have taken priority over facts. [Post edited 26 Jan 2023 21:46]
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As you have said before this issue has nothing to do with the Scottish changes to gender recognition which haven't even become law, particularly given the fact that it is the general policy in both England and Scotland for (formerly male) trans prisoners to be housed in a female prison whether or not they have a gender recognition certificate.
The matter is covered by UK-wide equality legislation, and if the Tory government really thought there was an issue, it could legislate UK-wide for biological males to be housed only in a male prison.
However it suits their culture wars against both the SNP and Labour for this matter to drag on, and in any event such an approach would run contrary to the Equality Act 2010 which treats both (female) sex and gender reassignment as protected characteristics.
The fact is that there is a potential conflict between trans rights and women's rights, and a balance has to be struck.
This is recognised in a recent English High Court case where the English Ministry of Justice successfully argued that the policy of housing trans people in women's prisons pursued a legitimate aim, including "facilitating the rights of transgender people to live in and as their acquired gender (and) protecting transgender people's mental and physical health".
However, as you suggest, it is for the prison service to determine the matter on a case-by-case basis, and they clearly have great experience of such matters.
The upshot may be that a trans rapist wouldn't be kept in a women's prison, but a trans fraudster would. But much better to leave this to the prison service, rather allow it to become a political football, the aim of which seems to be to suggest trans people are potential sex offenders. [Post edited 27 Jan 2023 9:37]
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 09:45 - Jan 27 with 1668 views | clive_baker |
I'm all for trans rights, live and let live I say and if someone feels they've been born into the wrong body who am I to question that.
This is a bit of a tricky one, ultimately I think it's reasonable to believe this individual could pose a risk to the other inmates in a female prison, and therefore a male prison would be a more appropriate environment. As others have said, wherever they end up I'm sure they'll be in solitary confinement anyway owing to the nature of the crimes. |  |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 09:54 - Jan 27 with 1657 views | DJR |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 09:28 - Jan 27 by DJR |
As you have said before this issue has nothing to do with the Scottish changes to gender recognition which haven't even become law, particularly given the fact that it is the general policy in both England and Scotland for (formerly male) trans prisoners to be housed in a female prison whether or not they have a gender recognition certificate.
The matter is covered by UK-wide equality legislation, and if the Tory government really thought there was an issue, it could legislate UK-wide for biological males to be housed only in a male prison.
However it suits their culture wars against both the SNP and Labour for this matter to drag on, and in any event such an approach would run contrary to the Equality Act 2010 which treats both (female) sex and gender reassignment as protected characteristics.
The fact is that there is a potential conflict between trans rights and women's rights, and a balance has to be struck.
This is recognised in a recent English High Court case where the English Ministry of Justice successfully argued that the policy of housing trans people in women's prisons pursued a legitimate aim, including "facilitating the rights of transgender people to live in and as their acquired gender (and) protecting transgender people's mental and physical health".
However, as you suggest, it is for the prison service to determine the matter on a case-by-case basis, and they clearly have great experience of such matters.
The upshot may be that a trans rapist wouldn't be kept in a women's prison, but a trans fraudster would. But much better to leave this to the prison service, rather allow it to become a political football, the aim of which seems to be to suggest trans people are potential sex offenders. [Post edited 27 Jan 2023 9:37]
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Thinking about the issue more widely, it seems to me that David Cameron would have been supportive of what the Scottish government has done (as is Theresa May), but then again he was a social liberal.
More interesting is to see what Labour would do. I imagine Starmer is supportive of further changes, but wouldn't be surprised if this issue isn't pursued by Labour, given its recent pandering to Mail-type issues. | | | |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 10:16 - Jan 27 with 1614 views | itfcjoe |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 09:23 - Jan 27 by Kievthegreat |
I'd probably agree in this case, she has a history of violent sexual crimes and until evidence to the contrary is provided will be viewed as a high risk. However it might be in 2 years time, potentially after having surgery, that she might want her situation reevaluated. At that point it could become less clear cut as to which is the correct establishment. Hence we should have a decision made by professionals rather than tabloid headlines and political expediency. |
It probably suits both sides in the culture war that this one, which is so seemingly obvious, is played out in the media as allows both sides to be right so to speak to their own bases,
Allows people to say they need to not be in a womens prison, and allows Sturgeon to show that there is nuance in her position and can agree with that in this case and show that it isn't an open door to womens prison for people who look to transition at what may appear to be a convenient time | |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 11:26 - Jan 27 with 1558 views | DJR |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 10:16 - Jan 27 by itfcjoe |
It probably suits both sides in the culture war that this one, which is so seemingly obvious, is played out in the media as allows both sides to be right so to speak to their own bases,
Allows people to say they need to not be in a womens prison, and allows Sturgeon to show that there is nuance in her position and can agree with that in this case and show that it isn't an open door to womens prison for people who look to transition at what may appear to be a convenient time |
I don't think Sturgeon has pursued gender recognition to shore up support, or as part of some sort of culture war. Indeed, politically she would have done much better to have steered clear of this issue because it will dog her for the next two years because no doubt the right-wing papers will be sniffing about for other examples.
After all, if she were to fight a section 35 order, much better not to fight it on what has turned out to be such a controversial issue.
And as regards coverage of the SNP, it mustn't be forgotten that all national newspapers, as well as their Scottish editions, are anti-independence, so more than happy to put the boot in. And the BBC is more than willing to go along with this.
And just look at today's coverage in the Scottish papers which suggests, when it comes to culture wars, the right have all the weapons.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64422632 [Post edited 27 Jan 2023 11:43]
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