| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:08 - Jan 27 with 2470 views | HARRY10 |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 09:45 - Jan 27 by clive_baker |
I'm all for trans rights, live and let live I say and if someone feels they've been born into the wrong body who am I to question that.
This is a bit of a tricky one, ultimately I think it's reasonable to believe this individual could pose a risk to the other inmates in a female prison, and therefore a male prison would be a more appropriate environment. As others have said, wherever they end up I'm sure they'll be in solitary confinement anyway owing to the nature of the crimes. |
It is not solitary confinement per se. It will be a single cell, in a segregated ward.
It is odd that someone who violently attacked a woman for sexual gratification should now claim he wants to be a woman........after he was charged.
I would have thought that there would be empathy for women, and it should be noted that this was not a 'one off'. He then raped another woman.
Which ever way you spin it, this bloke has been a double rapist. |  | |  |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 11:12 - Jan 28 with 2243 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 11:26 - Jan 27 by DJR |
I don't think Sturgeon has pursued gender recognition to shore up support, or as part of some sort of culture war. Indeed, politically she would have done much better to have steered clear of this issue because it will dog her for the next two years because no doubt the right-wing papers will be sniffing about for other examples.
After all, if she were to fight a section 35 order, much better not to fight it on what has turned out to be such a controversial issue.
And as regards coverage of the SNP, it mustn't be forgotten that all national newspapers, as well as their Scottish editions, are anti-independence, so more than happy to put the boot in. And the BBC is more than willing to go along with this.
And just look at today's coverage in the Scottish papers which suggests, when it comes to culture wars, the right have all the weapons.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64422632 [Post edited 27 Jan 2023 11:43]
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Looking at your link, the very first newspaper is The Daily Record (Labour supporting, so not 'right') - Students Asked To Strip Of In Front Of Trans Rapist |  |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 11:17 - Jan 28 with 2217 views | DJR |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 11:12 - Jan 28 by GlasgowBlue |
Looking at your link, the very first newspaper is The Daily Record (Labour supporting, so not 'right') - Students Asked To Strip Of In Front Of Trans Rapist |
But it is anti-independence as I mentioned in my post, so more than happy to put the boot in too.
And as I have mentioned before the attacks on the SNP appear to be motivated by either or both of anti-independence or right-wing culture war attacks. [Post edited 28 Jan 2023 11:23]
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:01 - Jan 28 with 2152 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 11:17 - Jan 28 by DJR |
But it is anti-independence as I mentioned in my post, so more than happy to put the boot in too.
And as I have mentioned before the attacks on the SNP appear to be motivated by either or both of anti-independence or right-wing culture war attacks. [Post edited 28 Jan 2023 11:23]
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I'm still confused by this case though. It was accepted that trans women were women. There is no difference and to say so was to be transphobic. That has been stated many times.
So why is Isla Bryson not serving her time in a women's jail. Even if she serves it in an isolation wing?
By putting her in a man's prison the whole argument has unraveled and needs more discussion. | |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:09 - Jan 28 with 2122 views | lowhouseblue |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:01 - Jan 28 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm still confused by this case though. It was accepted that trans women were women. There is no difference and to say so was to be transphobic. That has been stated many times.
So why is Isla Bryson not serving her time in a women's jail. Even if she serves it in an isolation wing?
By putting her in a man's prison the whole argument has unraveled and needs more discussion. |
because under the equality act prisons are an exception and in prisons gender identity doesn't necessarily tump biology. the risk assessment would, i assume, consider the risk to staff as well as other prisoners. men's prisons have specialist units, eg for sex offenders, and perhaps women's prisons don't have the same capacity to isolate while still providing education and welfare services? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:21 - Jan 28 with 2079 views | DJR |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:01 - Jan 28 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm still confused by this case though. It was accepted that trans women were women. There is no difference and to say so was to be transphobic. That has been stated many times.
So why is Isla Bryson not serving her time in a women's jail. Even if she serves it in an isolation wing?
By putting her in a man's prison the whole argument has unraveled and needs more discussion. |
The following offers a fairly balanced view of the situation.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jan/27/trans-rapist-isla-bryson-prison-
It's just a shame it has become a political football. | | | |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:23 - Jan 28 with 2061 views | lowhouseblue |
a blanket rule would properly be held to be discriminatory. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:30 - Jan 28 with 2029 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:01 - Jan 28 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm still confused by this case though. It was accepted that trans women were women. There is no difference and to say so was to be transphobic. That has been stated many times.
So why is Isla Bryson not serving her time in a women's jail. Even if she serves it in an isolation wing?
By putting her in a man's prison the whole argument has unraveled and needs more discussion. |
She could have shared a cell with Katie Dolatowski |  |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:38 - Jan 28 with 2001 views | Kievthegreat |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:01 - Jan 28 by GlasgowBlue |
I'm still confused by this case though. It was accepted that trans women were women. There is no difference and to say so was to be transphobic. That has been stated many times.
So why is Isla Bryson not serving her time in a women's jail. Even if she serves it in an isolation wing?
By putting her in a man's prison the whole argument has unraveled and needs more discussion. |
It's about pragmatic solutions to complex problems and niche cases. It's about not extrapolating extreme outliers as the norm. Firstly I'm glad we can agree she's a woman. She's a vile woman, but a woman.
Whether it's about sports or prisons, the pushback is from my perspective against blanket bans or exclusions. We should remove barriers except where there is some need exceptional need. Here we have a very fringe case where the risk needs to be assessed about the danger she potentially poses.
Again though this could change, once she has surgery (which articles seem to indicate is her preference), she may well be moved to the Women's estate as they might view the risk she poses in the Women's estate is lowered and her risk of being attacked in the male estate increases.
It also doesn't really need discussion. This is the law since 2010, it's been working fine. There was no push to remove this exception as it was accepted as a reasonable one. It was working perfectly fine until some trashy newspapers needed some more culture war ammunition and transphovic dogwhistles. |  | | |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:42 - Jan 28 with 1978 views | DJR |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:23 - Jan 28 by lowhouseblue |
a blanket rule would properly be held to be discriminatory. |
Agreed. As I said in an earlier post, the English Ministry of Justice successfully argued in a recent English High Court case that the policy of housing trans people in women's prisons pursued a legitimate aim, including "facilitating the rights of transgender people to live in and as their acquired gender (and) protecting transgender people's mental and physical health". [Post edited 28 Jan 2023 12:44]
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:49 - Jan 28 with 1965 views | DJR |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:38 - Jan 28 by Kievthegreat |
It's about pragmatic solutions to complex problems and niche cases. It's about not extrapolating extreme outliers as the norm. Firstly I'm glad we can agree she's a woman. She's a vile woman, but a woman.
Whether it's about sports or prisons, the pushback is from my perspective against blanket bans or exclusions. We should remove barriers except where there is some need exceptional need. Here we have a very fringe case where the risk needs to be assessed about the danger she potentially poses.
Again though this could change, once she has surgery (which articles seem to indicate is her preference), she may well be moved to the Women's estate as they might view the risk she poses in the Women's estate is lowered and her risk of being attacked in the male estate increases.
It also doesn't really need discussion. This is the law since 2010, it's been working fine. There was no push to remove this exception as it was accepted as a reasonable one. It was working perfectly fine until some trashy newspapers needed some more culture war ammunition and transphovic dogwhistles. |
Agreed, and the gender recognition changes in Scotland have no bearing on the matter given that trans women can be housed in women's prisons, regardless of whether they have a gender recognition certificate.
But as they say, never let the facts get in the way of the truth. [Post edited 28 Jan 2023 12:49]
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 09:45 - Jan 29 with 1844 views | Darth_Koont |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 12:38 - Jan 28 by Kievthegreat |
It's about pragmatic solutions to complex problems and niche cases. It's about not extrapolating extreme outliers as the norm. Firstly I'm glad we can agree she's a woman. She's a vile woman, but a woman.
Whether it's about sports or prisons, the pushback is from my perspective against blanket bans or exclusions. We should remove barriers except where there is some need exceptional need. Here we have a very fringe case where the risk needs to be assessed about the danger she potentially poses.
Again though this could change, once she has surgery (which articles seem to indicate is her preference), she may well be moved to the Women's estate as they might view the risk she poses in the Women's estate is lowered and her risk of being attacked in the male estate increases.
It also doesn't really need discussion. This is the law since 2010, it's been working fine. There was no push to remove this exception as it was accepted as a reasonable one. It was working perfectly fine until some trashy newspapers needed some more culture war ammunition and transphovic dogwhistles. |
Excellent post.
I’m still amazed how much of a tizzy the UK is getting itself about this. Of course, our press and politicians were always going to be crap on this but didn’t expect so many people to be jumping on the anti-trans bandwagon now and despite equality legislation that’s been in place for years.
But I suppose it’s better to have the public talking about a largely imaginary issue than the pretty shambolic socio-economic reality our media and politicians have delivered. Or indeed toxic masculinity and the overall threat to women and girls that is infinitely more the issue.
Still, nothing like pointing the finger at minorities (and especially these extreme outliers) to avoid looking in the mirror. |  |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 15:12 - Jan 29 with 1757 views | HemelBlue |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 13:22 - Jan 26 by GlasgowBlue |
It should be a rational debate. By the letter of the law this offender should serve time in a women's prison as they have transitioned and have a gender recognition certificate. This is how recent legislation is now falling apart because we have an an example of the concerns shown at the time. The offender was on remand in a women's prison and the Scottish government only folded on this after an outcry. |
She does not have a gender recognition certificate, yet, as it goes.
People make an issue about whether she serves her time in men’s or women’s prisons but it’s unlikely to be the key point. Like all inmates, there should be a risk assessment. She is a dangerous person, with a history of violence towards women and would likely be unsafe if put in the general population at a mens prison, so wherever she ends up, she should be segregated from the population and supervised on safety grounds.
There is no rule saying prisoners need to be assigned a prison based on gender or that genders need to be segregated. She will be a guest of his majesty and his majesty just needs to try to keep all his guests (including her) safe. | | | |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 16:57 - Jan 29 with 1674 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 15:12 - Jan 29 by HemelBlue |
She does not have a gender recognition certificate, yet, as it goes.
People make an issue about whether she serves her time in men’s or women’s prisons but it’s unlikely to be the key point. Like all inmates, there should be a risk assessment. She is a dangerous person, with a history of violence towards women and would likely be unsafe if put in the general population at a mens prison, so wherever she ends up, she should be segregated from the population and supervised on safety grounds.
There is no rule saying prisoners need to be assigned a prison based on gender or that genders need to be segregated. She will be a guest of his majesty and his majesty just needs to try to keep all his guests (including her) safe. |
The point is being missed here. If she were born a woman then regardless of whether she was a danger to other women, she would be in an isolation wing in a women’s prison.
By sending her to a men’s prison, the Scottish government is saying there is a difference between somebody born a woman and somebody who transitions. | |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 17:03 - Jan 29 with 1658 views | Darth_Koont |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 16:57 - Jan 29 by GlasgowBlue |
The point is being missed here. If she were born a woman then regardless of whether she was a danger to other women, she would be in an isolation wing in a women’s prison.
By sending her to a men’s prison, the Scottish government is saying there is a difference between somebody born a woman and somebody who transitions. |
Desperate.
I see Sturgeon and the SNP/Green government are going to be getting your full bag of tricks from now on. | |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 17:15 - Jan 29 with 1638 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 17:03 - Jan 29 by Darth_Koont |
Desperate.
I see Sturgeon and the SNP/Green government are going to be getting your full bag of tricks from now on. |
What is desperate about it. We’ve been told that if you don’t accept that trans women are real women then you are a Terf.
By sending this woman to an all make prison they are, by this definition, being transphobic.
Do you accept that trans women are real women and should have the same rights as those who were born as women? Yes or no?
Edit. Well well. it’s not just this woman but all trans prisoners now.
[Post edited 29 Jan 2023 17:17]
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 17:34 - Jan 29 with 1628 views | Trequartista |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 17:15 - Jan 29 by GlasgowBlue |
What is desperate about it. We’ve been told that if you don’t accept that trans women are real women then you are a Terf.
By sending this woman to an all make prison they are, by this definition, being transphobic.
Do you accept that trans women are real women and should have the same rights as those who were born as women? Yes or no?
Edit. Well well. it’s not just this woman but all trans prisoners now.
[Post edited 29 Jan 2023 17:17]
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The House of Cards is collapsing under truth bombs. At least there's no damage done here unlike Mermaids and Tavistock. [Post edited 29 Jan 2023 17:34]
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 18:01 - Jan 29 with 1562 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 17:34 - Jan 29 by Trequartista |
The House of Cards is collapsing under truth bombs. At least there's no damage done here unlike Mermaids and Tavistock. [Post edited 29 Jan 2023 17:34]
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I wish koonters would just answer the question rather than swerving | |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 19:16 - Jan 29 with 1487 views | Cafe_Newman |
We get frustrated with VAR for not correctly ruling on the bleeding' obvious.
I don't see this as any different.
For those who haven't read the article, this is who we are talking about:
"Bryson's estranged wife, Shonna Graham, 31, said she had a "lot of sympathy for real trans people" but claimed her former partner's transition was a "sham for attention" and that Bryson is attempting to fool the authorities.
Ms Graham told the Daily Mail: "Never once did he say anything to me about feeling he was in the wrong body or anything", and accused Bryson of being abusive in their relationship." BBC |  | | |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 06:55 - Jan 30 with 1292 views | Darth_Koont |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 17:15 - Jan 29 by GlasgowBlue |
What is desperate about it. We’ve been told that if you don’t accept that trans women are real women then you are a Terf.
By sending this woman to an all make prison they are, by this definition, being transphobic.
Do you accept that trans women are real women and should have the same rights as those who were born as women? Yes or no?
Edit. Well well. it’s not just this woman but all trans prisoners now.
[Post edited 29 Jan 2023 17:17]
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Stop being a dick.
Yes, trans women are women but there are clearly outliers and judgment calls in certain situations. Whether it’s prison inmate safety, elite sports or whatever.
That has always been part of the genuine debate and approach. Even now when you and others are desperate to turn this into a political football further marginalising and isolating a vulnerable minority. | |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 07:04 - Jan 30 with 1281 views | Darth_Koont |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 17:34 - Jan 29 by Trequartista |
The House of Cards is collapsing under truth bombs. At least there's no damage done here unlike Mermaids and Tavistock. [Post edited 29 Jan 2023 17:34]
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What about Mermaids and Tavistock? What’s the accusation? | |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 07:22 - Jan 30 with 1258 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 06:55 - Jan 30 by Darth_Koont |
Stop being a dick.
Yes, trans women are women but there are clearly outliers and judgment calls in certain situations. Whether it’s prison inmate safety, elite sports or whatever.
That has always been part of the genuine debate and approach. Even now when you and others are desperate to turn this into a political football further marginalising and isolating a vulnerable minority. |
More abuse.
And once again swerved the question. Should trans women have all of the same rights as women born with a virgina and be treated no differently?
I’m pretty certain that when two prominent posters on here raised concerns about outliers in “prison inmate safety, elite sports or whatever” yiu and a few other jumped all over them, accusing them of being transphobic.
For all of his faults at least Callis would have the courage of his convictions. [Post edited 30 Jan 2023 7:41]
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 07:40 - Jan 30 with 1226 views | DJR |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 07:22 - Jan 30 by GlasgowBlue |
More abuse.
And once again swerved the question. Should trans women have all of the same rights as women born with a virgina and be treated no differently?
I’m pretty certain that when two prominent posters on here raised concerns about outliers in “prison inmate safety, elite sports or whatever” yiu and a few other jumped all over them, accusing them of being transphobic.
For all of his faults at least Callis would have the courage of his convictions. [Post edited 30 Jan 2023 7:41]
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This from a BBC news item a couple of years ago when things were not so toxic provides indicates the position under the UK-wide Equality Act 2010.
"What are the rules around women-only spaces?
There has been debate about the rights of transgender people and there is a range of views as to how society can best balance the needs of different groups.
Much of the debate has focused on access to women-only spaces such as toilets, changing rooms, domestic violence refuges and prisons.
Under the Equality Act 2010, no-one should be discriminated against because they are transgender.
A person does not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to be protected from this discrimination. Equality and Human Rights Commission guidance states that "changing your physiological or other gender attributes is a personal process rather than a medical one".
But single-sex service providers can choose to exclude transgender people where there are ''proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim''.
An example given by the Equality Act is that organisers of group counselling for female sexual assault victims could exclude a trans woman if they judged that clients would be unlikely to attend the session if she was there.
However, refusing a trans woman entry to a pub's female toilet is likely to be unlawful." | | | |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 07:50 - Jan 30 with 1208 views | Darth_Koont |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 07:22 - Jan 30 by GlasgowBlue |
More abuse.
And once again swerved the question. Should trans women have all of the same rights as women born with a virgina and be treated no differently?
I’m pretty certain that when two prominent posters on here raised concerns about outliers in “prison inmate safety, elite sports or whatever” yiu and a few other jumped all over them, accusing them of being transphobic.
For all of his faults at least Callis would have the courage of his convictions. [Post edited 30 Jan 2023 7:41]
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It’s not abuse. It’s an observation.
Stop treating this like the rest of your big game of politics. Of course, you won’t but I’ll still keep calling you out for it. | |
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| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 07:54 - Jan 30 with 1200 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Should this offender serve their time in a woman or man prison? on 07:50 - Jan 30 by Darth_Koont |
It’s not abuse. It’s an observation.
Stop treating this like the rest of your big game of politics. Of course, you won’t but I’ll still keep calling you out for it. |
Swerve again. I’ll leave it there as you’re unable to answer the question for fear of having your past words thrown back at you. Flip flop. | |
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