| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:48 - Feb 6 with 4046 views | BlueBadger |
I understand its quite common for judges to direct juries in their summing up, based on the evidence they've heard. |  |
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:51 - Feb 6 with 4033 views | Samuelowen88 |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:48 - Feb 6 by BlueBadger |
I understand its quite common for judges to direct juries in their summing up, based on the evidence they've heard. |
Does that not take away a fair trial by a jury of your peers? If the jury is not free to make their own decision ? |  |
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:53 - Feb 6 with 4018 views | Slimitfc91 |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:51 - Feb 6 by Samuelowen88 |
Does that not take away a fair trial by a jury of your peers? If the jury is not free to make their own decision ? |
No |  | | |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:53 - Feb 6 with 4017 views | Zx1988 |
I'm not necessarily sure that I agree with it, but I understand the use of such directions where a defendant is relying upon a particularly complex area of law, which may not be entirely intelligible to the 'man on the Clapham Omnibus'.
Given that the defendant had admitted the killings, but had claimed diminished responsibility, I can see how such a situation may have arisen here.
I think it may also have come up recently in certain Extinction Rebellion cases, where the defendants argued that the acts were justified within the broader context, and that the need to higlight the climate emergency vastly outweighed the cost to (for example) Barclays in respect of a few smashed windows.
What would happen, though, if the jury refused to follow the judge's direction? [Post edited 6 Feb 2023 12:55]
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:54 - Feb 6 with 4005 views | Samuelowen88 |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:53 - Feb 6 by Slimitfc91 |
No |
Thanks for the helpful reply. Care to expand and explain? | |
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:57 - Feb 6 with 3964 views | Slimitfc91 |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:54 - Feb 6 by Samuelowen88 |
Thanks for the helpful reply. Care to expand and explain? |
He is trying to con the system by claiming diminished responsibility, he has admitted the killings, the judge is pointing out to the jury that the murdering fcker is not a loon and knew exactly what he was doing | | | |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:58 - Feb 6 with 3954 views | Darth_Koont |
The defendant has admitted to the killings and the only question is the defence of diminished responsibility. But that’s not for the jury to decide and presumably it’s a psychiatric/expert evaluation.
So the jury needs to complete the formality of finding him guilty on those counts and then move on. |  |
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 13:01 - Feb 6 with 3940 views | LankHenners |
I think they can do that as their role at that point is to instruct/inform jury members of the facts of law which in some cases may make someone guilty in a very clear cut way but the jury is not obliged to do so if they conclude otherwise after discussing all the evidence, they can't be forced to give a verdict one way or the other. Could be wrong but I don't think the judge can then overrule the jury if they disagree with him (though the defendant could appeal the decision). |  |
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 13:01 - Feb 6 with 3928 views | Zx1988 |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:58 - Feb 6 by Darth_Koont |
The defendant has admitted to the killings and the only question is the defence of diminished responsibility. But that’s not for the jury to decide and presumably it’s a psychiatric/expert evaluation.
So the jury needs to complete the formality of finding him guilty on those counts and then move on. |
How does this work in practice? Is there a single joint expert, or does each side have the opportunity to present its own expert to expose their particular point of view?
I'd argue that, if it's the latter, there's a case for arguing that it's down to the experts and their teams to present the evidence to the jury, submit themselves to cross-examination, and then have the jury determine which expert is the most believable.
If the experts and their teams are unable to distil the issues and questions down in a way that the jury can understand their points and reasoning, surely that's a them problem, rather than having to have the judge make the decision? | |
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 13:03 - Feb 6 with 3899 views | BlueBadger |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:51 - Feb 6 by Samuelowen88 |
Does that not take away a fair trial by a jury of your peers? If the jury is not free to make their own decision ? |
The jury are free to ignore the judge's recommendation, should they feel that way. | |
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 13:10 - Feb 6 with 3846 views | Kievthegreat |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:53 - Feb 6 by Zx1988 |
I'm not necessarily sure that I agree with it, but I understand the use of such directions where a defendant is relying upon a particularly complex area of law, which may not be entirely intelligible to the 'man on the Clapham Omnibus'.
Given that the defendant had admitted the killings, but had claimed diminished responsibility, I can see how such a situation may have arisen here.
I think it may also have come up recently in certain Extinction Rebellion cases, where the defendants argued that the acts were justified within the broader context, and that the need to higlight the climate emergency vastly outweighed the cost to (for example) Barclays in respect of a few smashed windows.
What would happen, though, if the jury refused to follow the judge's direction? [Post edited 6 Feb 2023 12:55]
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Nothing would happen to the jury if they disagreed with the judge. The judge can direct the jury, but the jurors make the final decision still and they still need to be satisfied in the arguments made by the prosecution to find him guilty. |  | | |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 13:12 - Feb 6 with 3819 views | Darth_Koont |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 13:01 - Feb 6 by Zx1988 |
How does this work in practice? Is there a single joint expert, or does each side have the opportunity to present its own expert to expose their particular point of view?
I'd argue that, if it's the latter, there's a case for arguing that it's down to the experts and their teams to present the evidence to the jury, submit themselves to cross-examination, and then have the jury determine which expert is the most believable.
If the experts and their teams are unable to distil the issues and questions down in a way that the jury can understand their points and reasoning, surely that's a them problem, rather than having to have the judge make the decision? |
No idea – but the diminished responsibility defence is patently nothing a jury of non-medical/behavioural experts should have anything to do with evaluating and judging. | |
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 14:01 - Feb 6 with 3624 views | DJR |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 13:03 - Feb 6 by BlueBadger |
The jury are free to ignore the judge's recommendation, should they feel that way. |
And they did so in the Ponting case back in the 1980s. He was acquitted in a jury trial despite the fact that he had breached the Official Secrets Act 1911 and the judge had directed the jury to convict him.
In a murder trial, such an outcome is unimaginable. |  | | |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 14:08 - Feb 6 with 3582 views | Samuelowen88 |
Thanks all, makes sense now. TWTD, font of all knowledge (unless its straight after a loss, then definitely not) | |
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 16:30 - Feb 6 with 3399 views | HARRY10 |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:51 - Feb 6 by Samuelowen88 |
Does that not take away a fair trial by a jury of your peers? If the jury is not free to make their own decision ? |
eh ?
Where does it say that ?
And does make you wonder whether some on a jury actually understand eveidence if what is a fairly simple piece of information can be so badly misunderstood. | | | |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 17:55 - Feb 6 with 3285 views | factual_blue |
I daresay others have probably already explained, but (based on my reading of the BBC report).
1. He admitted killing the victims.
2. He claimed diminished responsibility due to mental impairment.
3. He therefore denied murder.
4. No supporting evidence was produced that backed up his assertion of being a loony.
5. In the absence of corroboration, the judge rightly told the jury that the claim of diminished responsibility must fail and that, as he admitted the killings, the defendant must be guilty of murder.
6. In other words, if you're claiming you're a loony, make sure you can back it up with something other than pencils up your nose and underpants on your head. |  |
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 18:33 - Feb 6 with 3243 views | DJR |
Diminished responsibility is a defence to a charge of murder.
In England and Wales, under section 2 of the Homicide Act 1957, the defendant has to prove they had diminished responsibility to avoid being convicted of murder.
There is a four-stage test, of which all four elements must be proved:
(a) Whether the defendant was suffering from an abnormality of mental functioning
(b) If so, whether it had arisen from a recognised medical condition
(c) If so, whether it had substantially impaired his ability either to understand the nature of his conduct or to form a rational judgment or to exercise self-control (or any combination)
(d) If so, whether it provided an explanation for his conduct
This is clearly not an easy test to meet.
The law in Scotland is not governed by the Homicide Act, and seems to be based on case law, but I imagine the principles are much the same.
I imagine that the defendant in this case came nowhere near to proving diminished responsibility, so the judge directed the jury to find him guilty of murder, given the defendant had admitted the killing which, without diminished responsibility, amounted to murder. [Post edited 6 Feb 2023 19:35]
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 18:42 - Feb 6 with 3219 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:51 - Feb 6 by Samuelowen88 |
Does that not take away a fair trial by a jury of your peers? If the jury is not free to make their own decision ? |
In this instance it is not a question of guilt or innocence per se.
The defendant has already admitted to the killing, so his culpability is already established. He had pled not guilty on the basis of diminished responsibility based on mental impairment, however no evidence was offered to speak to this. So the judge must then direct the jury to find him guilty.
Common legal president though less common in murder trials. |  |
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 18:45 - Feb 6 with 3212 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 13:01 - Feb 6 by Zx1988 |
How does this work in practice? Is there a single joint expert, or does each side have the opportunity to present its own expert to expose their particular point of view?
I'd argue that, if it's the latter, there's a case for arguing that it's down to the experts and their teams to present the evidence to the jury, submit themselves to cross-examination, and then have the jury determine which expert is the most believable.
If the experts and their teams are unable to distil the issues and questions down in a way that the jury can understand their points and reasoning, surely that's a them problem, rather than having to have the judge make the decision? |
Case by case to point. Without knowing the particulars one is just guessing but in this instance I'm guessing the defence have not offered a witness to testify to it, atesst not a qualified one so the judge has ruled.
Sticking pencils up the defendansts nose and having him say wibble on the witness stand doesn't meet the threshold | |
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 19:33 - Feb 6 with 3149 views | andytown |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 12:53 - Feb 6 by Zx1988 |
I'm not necessarily sure that I agree with it, but I understand the use of such directions where a defendant is relying upon a particularly complex area of law, which may not be entirely intelligible to the 'man on the Clapham Omnibus'.
Given that the defendant had admitted the killings, but had claimed diminished responsibility, I can see how such a situation may have arisen here.
I think it may also have come up recently in certain Extinction Rebellion cases, where the defendants argued that the acts were justified within the broader context, and that the need to higlight the climate emergency vastly outweighed the cost to (for example) Barclays in respect of a few smashed windows.
What would happen, though, if the jury refused to follow the judge's direction? [Post edited 6 Feb 2023 12:55]
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Didn’t this happen in the criminal damage case at Bristol last year(?). 4 people were charged with toppling Colton’s statue and they admitted it, jury said not guilty as they accepted their defence. Don’t remember exactly what it was, but iirc it caused quite a stir as the jury had returned the ‘wrong’ verdict. | | | |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 21:55 - Feb 6 with 3055 views | Swansea_Blue |
He looks a wrong un. It’s so easy to tell as well. 99% of these arseholes you can tell they’re wrong just by looking at them. We should lock up all dodgy looking people. It would be far easier and cheaper than having a trial, and just tough luck on the 1% who look wrong but aren’t. You can make an omelette and all that… |  |
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 22:20 - Feb 6 with 2997 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 18:33 - Feb 6 by DJR |
Diminished responsibility is a defence to a charge of murder.
In England and Wales, under section 2 of the Homicide Act 1957, the defendant has to prove they had diminished responsibility to avoid being convicted of murder.
There is a four-stage test, of which all four elements must be proved:
(a) Whether the defendant was suffering from an abnormality of mental functioning
(b) If so, whether it had arisen from a recognised medical condition
(c) If so, whether it had substantially impaired his ability either to understand the nature of his conduct or to form a rational judgment or to exercise self-control (or any combination)
(d) If so, whether it provided an explanation for his conduct
This is clearly not an easy test to meet.
The law in Scotland is not governed by the Homicide Act, and seems to be based on case law, but I imagine the principles are much the same.
I imagine that the defendant in this case came nowhere near to proving diminished responsibility, so the judge directed the jury to find him guilty of murder, given the defendant had admitted the killing which, without diminished responsibility, amounted to murder. [Post edited 6 Feb 2023 19:35]
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Indeed. I read it as a combination of pleading guilty to killing them but claiming the diminished responsibility that he presented insufficient evidence of to pass the threshold. I would imagine that, had he pleaded not guilty to manslaughter, the judge would have directed the jury to choose between murder or a not guilty verdict (unless he had presented no evidence to claim he had not committed the crime at all).
Reading the summary at the end makes me thankful not to have served on that jury and to hope I never have to on anything similar either. It is bad enough reading some of the things the media reports nowadays. |  |
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| In that case.... on 22:24 - Feb 6 with 2982 views | factual_blue |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 21:55 - Feb 6 by Swansea_Blue |
He looks a wrong un. It’s so easy to tell as well. 99% of these arseholes you can tell they’re wrong just by looking at them. We should lock up all dodgy looking people. It would be far easier and cheaper than having a trial, and just tough luck on the 1% who look wrong but aren’t. You can make an omelette and all that… |
You're nicked, sunshine. | |
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 22:27 - Feb 6 with 2962 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 21:55 - Feb 6 by Swansea_Blue |
He looks a wrong un. It’s so easy to tell as well. 99% of these arseholes you can tell they’re wrong just by looking at them. We should lock up all dodgy looking people. It would be far easier and cheaper than having a trial, and just tough luck on the 1% who look wrong but aren’t. You can make an omelette and all that… |
Minority Report.
It is notable that newspapers can always capture or find that photograph. | |
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| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 22:30 - Feb 6 with 2945 views | factual_blue |
| Judge directs jury to find Guilty on 22:27 - Feb 6 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Minority Report.
It is notable that newspapers can always capture or find that photograph. |
The Lost Honour of Christopher Jefferies. | |
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