| Shamima Begum 11:14 - Feb 22 with 5714 views | TalkingBlues |
Not coming back, again. |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 17:06 - Feb 22 with 1233 views | DJR |
| Shamima Begum on 16:55 - Feb 22 by giant_stow |
I think she should come back as our problem to deal with, but apparently, there's evidence behind the ruling which couldn't be made public, but the judge saw, so we just don't have all the facts. |
I think the point is that matters of national security were discussed, not all of which could be reported.
But if you read a report on the case, the evidence that the Home Secretary used to come to her decision could only be challenged if she was found to have made a mistake of law.
In effect, this meant that the court didn't really have the power to overturn the Home Secretary's decision, whatever evidence was discussed. [Post edited 22 Feb 2023 19:18]
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| Shamima Begum on 17:08 - Feb 22 with 1228 views | giant_stow |
| Shamima Begum on 17:06 - Feb 22 by DJR |
I think the point is that matters of national security were discussed, not all of which could be reported.
But if you read a report on the case, the evidence that the Home Secretary used to come to her decision could only be challenged if she was found to have made a mistake of law.
In effect, this meant that the court didn't really have the power to overturn the Home Secretary's decision, whatever evidence was discussed. [Post edited 22 Feb 2023 19:18]
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Fair enough and good correction. |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 17:10 - Feb 22 with 1218 views | noggin |
| Shamima Begum on 17:02 - Feb 22 by Lord_Lucan |
That’s actually completely different as Shamima actively decided on her own part to research and join Isis
Personally I think she should be allowed back.
Pretty p1ssed off though with false equivalence but that’s the way you seem to roll of late.
Hey Ho. |
Is there evidence that she travelled without outside influence or coercion? I don't know the answer, just curious. |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 20:31 - Feb 22 with 1036 views | BlueForYou |
Agree with Lucan, from what I remember she & her friends groomed themselves to isis over the internet. She wasn’t alone. Difficult one as the girl has to end up somewhere. Personally whilst I have sympathy, I’d be happier if that were elsewhere. If she was allowed back, there would be a very long prison sentence. |  | | |
| Shamima Begum on 20:38 - Feb 22 with 1009 views | Mullet |
| Shamima Begum on 20:31 - Feb 22 by BlueForYou |
Agree with Lucan, from what I remember she & her friends groomed themselves to isis over the internet. She wasn’t alone. Difficult one as the girl has to end up somewhere. Personally whilst I have sympathy, I’d be happier if that were elsewhere. If she was allowed back, there would be a very long prison sentence. |
You don't "groom yourself" over the internet or anywhere though. There might have been several factors at play at home and in her community, but there will have been several people on the other end facilitating her and her friends.
If she was 25 it's a more persuasive argument but even adults can be vulnerable (obviously not in this case) She should face justice here without doubt in my mind. Custody must cost less financially and politically in any form I'd have thought. |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 08:15 - Feb 23 with 863 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Opens the door to strip people of British citizenship who have actually done enormous and deliberate harm to the country for personal gain…. Farage, Johnson, ERG loons …. |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 08:38 - Feb 23 with 826 views | itfcjoe |
| Shamima Begum on 20:38 - Feb 22 by Mullet |
You don't "groom yourself" over the internet or anywhere though. There might have been several factors at play at home and in her community, but there will have been several people on the other end facilitating her and her friends.
If she was 25 it's a more persuasive argument but even adults can be vulnerable (obviously not in this case) She should face justice here without doubt in my mind. Custody must cost less financially and politically in any form I'd have thought. |
I heard on a podcast last night that we have stripped over 200 people of their citizenship over last couple of years, so it's interesting how much more press this one is getting - I don't know any details of the others but we are 2nd in the league table behind Bahrain for number of citizens stripped of nationality in last however many years.
Not a record to be proud of, but I'm still very conflicted on this one and don't really see the benefit to anyone, including her, of being able to come back - if we could sort her out citizenship elsewhere as a country and move on then that would surely be best for everyone, but obviously easier said than done |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 08:40 - Feb 23 with 821 views | DanTheMan |
| Shamima Begum on 20:31 - Feb 22 by BlueForYou |
Agree with Lucan, from what I remember she & her friends groomed themselves to isis over the internet. She wasn’t alone. Difficult one as the girl has to end up somewhere. Personally whilst I have sympathy, I’d be happier if that were elsewhere. If she was allowed back, there would be a very long prison sentence. |
"her friends groomed themselves to isis"
??? |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 08:44 - Feb 23 with 813 views | noggin |
| Shamima Begum on 08:38 - Feb 23 by itfcjoe |
I heard on a podcast last night that we have stripped over 200 people of their citizenship over last couple of years, so it's interesting how much more press this one is getting - I don't know any details of the others but we are 2nd in the league table behind Bahrain for number of citizens stripped of nationality in last however many years.
Not a record to be proud of, but I'm still very conflicted on this one and don't really see the benefit to anyone, including her, of being able to come back - if we could sort her out citizenship elsewhere as a country and move on then that would surely be best for everyone, but obviously easier said than done |
I imagine most of those 200 would be from the Windrush scandal? Another racist moment in Britain's dark (no pun intended) history. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 8:56]
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| Shamima Begum on 09:21 - Feb 23 with 783 views | DJR |
| Shamima Begum on 08:44 - Feb 23 by noggin |
I imagine most of those 200 would be from the Windrush scandal? Another racist moment in Britain's dark (no pun intended) history. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 8:56]
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I think that's a separate, but equally disgusting, scandal because I think the issue they had is that they couldn't prove they were British citizens.
I was born outside the UK, and came to the UK when I was about 1. But fortunately my parents checked my status with the Home Office when I was about 10, and got a letter confirming I was probably a British citizen. They also got me a passport as soon as they could, given that in those days it was possible for a child to travel on a parent's passport, which was obviously the cheaper option.
Many others were just not aware of the issue, and had no need of a passport, so faced problems many years later when they couldn't prove their status. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 9:28]
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| Shamima Begum on 09:45 - Feb 23 with 724 views | noggin |
| Shamima Begum on 09:21 - Feb 23 by DJR |
I think that's a separate, but equally disgusting, scandal because I think the issue they had is that they couldn't prove they were British citizens.
I was born outside the UK, and came to the UK when I was about 1. But fortunately my parents checked my status with the Home Office when I was about 10, and got a letter confirming I was probably a British citizen. They also got me a passport as soon as they could, given that in those days it was possible for a child to travel on a parent's passport, which was obviously the cheaper option.
Many others were just not aware of the issue, and had no need of a passport, so faced problems many years later when they couldn't prove their status. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 9:28]
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One might naively believe that, for some of them at least, their tax records at HMRC would be evidence. I believe a few had even served in HM forces, having been recruited in the UK. | |
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| Shamima Begum on 09:45 - Feb 23 with 724 views | BlueForYou |
| Shamima Begum on 08:40 - Feb 23 by DanTheMan |
"her friends groomed themselves to isis"
??? |
From what I recall & I might be incorrect, they actively sought out isis themselves, they communicated & "studied"them online, & they were encouraged to sign up, but not forced & travelled on their own accord without being forced. | | | |
| Shamima Begum on 09:48 - Feb 23 with 721 views | noggin |
| Shamima Begum on 09:45 - Feb 23 by BlueForYou |
From what I recall & I might be incorrect, they actively sought out isis themselves, they communicated & "studied"them online, & they were encouraged to sign up, but not forced & travelled on their own accord without being forced. |
But that is how grooming and people trafficking works. Victims are promised a better life and often travel willingly. | |
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| Shamima Begum on 09:50 - Feb 23 with 713 views | Coastalblue |
| Shamima Begum on 09:45 - Feb 23 by BlueForYou |
From what I recall & I might be incorrect, they actively sought out isis themselves, they communicated & "studied"them online, & they were encouraged to sign up, but not forced & travelled on their own accord without being forced. |
Maybe they did, and they were children. |  |
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| Shamima Begum on 09:58 - Feb 23 with 705 views | DJR |
| Shamima Begum on 09:45 - Feb 23 by noggin |
One might naively believe that, for some of them at least, their tax records at HMRC would be evidence. I believe a few had even served in HM forces, having been recruited in the UK. |
Leaving aside the fact that tax records from so long ago are unlikely to exist, the Home Office was, for example, accused of-
(a) losing large numbers of original documents that proved right to remain; and
(b) of making unreasonable demands for documentary proof — in some instances, elderly people had been asked for four documents for each year they had lived in the UK.
I grew up in the UK in the 1960s and 70s but couldn't produce four documents for every year, and would even struggle for later years, but fortunately my parents sorted things out for me in the 70s. [Post edited 23 Feb 2023 10:04]
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| Shamima Begum on 10:42 - Feb 23 with 659 views | DanTheMan |
| Shamima Begum on 09:45 - Feb 23 by BlueForYou |
From what I recall & I might be incorrect, they actively sought out isis themselves, they communicated & "studied"them online, & they were encouraged to sign up, but not forced & travelled on their own accord without being forced. |
I'd still argue that as a child, even if she actively sought it, the encouragement by adults and terrorists to come join them is the grooming part.
If this was a case of a 15 year old seeking a relationship with an older man, and that older man encouraged it, it would be fairly obvious who was in the wrong here.
I really just don't understand why she should be someone else's problem. If she broke the law, she can come here and face justice as a British Citizen. As it is, we've effectively made her stateless I believe. | |
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| Shamima Begum on 10:49 - Feb 23 with 650 views | noggin |
| Shamima Begum on 09:45 - Feb 23 by BlueForYou |
From what I recall & I might be incorrect, they actively sought out isis themselves, they communicated & "studied"them online, & they were encouraged to sign up, but not forced & travelled on their own accord without being forced. |
Suppose you had a 15 year old daughter and she was found to be having a sexual relationship with a man in his 40s who she met online. Let's also suppose, when you discover this relationship, your daughter says she hates you and wants to be with this man.
Would you blame your daughter? After all, she actively communicated with this man and willingly had a sexual relationship with him. | |
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| Shamima Begum on 11:06 - Feb 23 with 610 views | Zx1988 |
| Shamima Begum on 10:49 - Feb 23 by noggin |
Suppose you had a 15 year old daughter and she was found to be having a sexual relationship with a man in his 40s who she met online. Let's also suppose, when you discover this relationship, your daughter says she hates you and wants to be with this man.
Would you blame your daughter? After all, she actively communicated with this man and willingly had a sexual relationship with him. |
Is she white? | |
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| Shamima Begum on 13:22 - Feb 23 with 527 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Shamima Begum on 13:29 - Feb 22 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
They kneaded to take her nationality into account… |
The Government's roll in all this needs to be questioned. They should be made to prove their case beyond reasonable dought. Instead it's half-baked nonsense that doesn't have a grain of truth.
No answer will please everyone: some would want her to be sentenced to loaf in prison, others would want her to be seen as the victim and be Free From punishment. The buckwheat has to stop somewhere. It's all becoming a right pain. | | | |
| Shamima Begum on 10:36 - Feb 24 with 371 views | DJR |
Interesting to read this article from someone I've heard speak in person.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/23/shamima-begum-courts-gover
He suggests that the Human Rights Act 1998 brought in a new brand of abrasively liberal judges but that things seem now to be in retreat.
Maybe the Enemies of the People slogan has done the trick, but he is right to point out that in days gone by it wasn't the judges that one looked to for protection from the state.
This accords with my recollection. As a law student, I was always told how marvellous Lord Denning was, but in the cases I read of his, my view is that he first decided the case on the grounds, say, he didn't like trade unions, and then wrote his judgment to fit those grounds. [Post edited 24 Feb 2023 10:39]
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