| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently 20:59 - Jun 22 with 6512 views | ElderGrizzly |
Quite the take on Question Time tonight
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| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 09:32 - Jun 23 with 1888 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 09:14 - Jun 23 by Herbivore |
EU regulations always have been implemented at state level. If we choose to be sticklers, that is on us. To be honest, I can't say I've seen lots of Cypriot building firms over here knocking up housing developments on the cheap without so much as a hard hat in sight and I'm not sure how many UK construction firms are looking to bid to build a few villas in Greece, so not sure how the competition point holds in that instance.
On state aid, other countries didn't flout the rules, we simply weren't willing to do what was allowed within the rules ourselves because the Tories, unless it enriches them somehow, are generally against state interference in the market. They cited state aid as a reason to leave but it was repeatedly pointed out that they'd never sought to go to the limit of let alone beyond what was allowed as an EU member state. France are in the EU and were able to fully nationalise EDF during the energy crisis and we are now effectively subsidizing them. We were outside the EU and did we look to nationalise the failing energy companies, let alone take over any of the big ones so we could more closely control costs to consumers? |
Yep, it's on us to uphold the rules (as they become our laws as we passed them through Parliament). We've often been over-cautious or over reach interpretation of laws and regulations. It used to be a pain at work with the auditing of EU project finances. A very dull example, but we'd always adopt a belt and braces approach here in the UK meaning extra work that wasn't always necessary. It's a bizarre place to be for a country that's historically been seen as a bit cavalier and making things up on the hoof. Simultaneously spontaneous and yet overzealous around rules.
And yep, the hardships placed on this country that are typified in a place like Clacton, are largely a function of 'our' choices (I say 'our' but I mean the ideology that governments have pursued that not all of us have voted for). Projecting our own failures onto the EU to make them the scapegoat was a very powerful tool for the leavers. I'm still not sure we're able to fight it. People don't want to believe the truth even now (as shown by the roof lady). |  |
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| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 10:05 - Jun 23 with 1860 views | ThisIsMyUsername |
You can imagine exactly how a conversation with this woman would go.
"I didn't like how the EU would set laws for us."
"What laws specifically didn't you like?"
"Well there was the one about roofs for example".
"What exactly was the law about roofs and what didn't you like about it?"
"Well you know they told us what we were allowed to do when going up on roofs".
"How has your life changed for the better now that we don't have to follow this law?"
"...................... immigrants" |  |
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| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 10:13 - Jun 23 with 1823 views | Charlie_pl_baxter |
Wherever you go, including this country, you will see examples of lax health and safety, especially on small projects. Round my mates house the other day and their extension builders were up on a set of trestles using an angle grinder to cut breeze blocks at height. |  |
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| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 10:16 - Jun 23 with 1817 views | keighleyblue |
Nothing whatsoever about this cluster of a show anywhere on the BBC website today. |  | | |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 10:43 - Jun 23 with 1783 views | itfcjoe |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 09:14 - Jun 23 by Herbivore |
EU regulations always have been implemented at state level. If we choose to be sticklers, that is on us. To be honest, I can't say I've seen lots of Cypriot building firms over here knocking up housing developments on the cheap without so much as a hard hat in sight and I'm not sure how many UK construction firms are looking to bid to build a few villas in Greece, so not sure how the competition point holds in that instance.
On state aid, other countries didn't flout the rules, we simply weren't willing to do what was allowed within the rules ourselves because the Tories, unless it enriches them somehow, are generally against state interference in the market. They cited state aid as a reason to leave but it was repeatedly pointed out that they'd never sought to go to the limit of let alone beyond what was allowed as an EU member state. France are in the EU and were able to fully nationalise EDF during the energy crisis and we are now effectively subsidizing them. We were outside the EU and did we look to nationalise the failing energy companies, let alone take over any of the big ones so we could more closely control costs to consumers? |
Re the first paragraph, if a business is wanting to get a factory or premises built and they can do so in UK, or elsewhere then it ends up much cheaper elsewhere due to things like being lax on regulation so it isn't just about the facetious example you've given - we couldn't compete on major infrastructure projects and this is one of the (many) reasons why but is one of the most visible. |  |
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| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 10:56 - Jun 23 with 1745 views | the_toff |
This is why the general public shouldn't be given a binary vote on such matters. |  | | |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 11:20 - Jun 23 with 1714 views | DJR |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 10:43 - Jun 23 by itfcjoe |
Re the first paragraph, if a business is wanting to get a factory or premises built and they can do so in UK, or elsewhere then it ends up much cheaper elsewhere due to things like being lax on regulation so it isn't just about the facetious example you've given - we couldn't compete on major infrastructure projects and this is one of the (many) reasons why but is one of the most visible. |
I think it's a case of swings and roundabout because there are other factors that also need to be taken into account. For example, my understanding is that it is much easier to set up a business in the UK than in many other countries which are pretty bureaucratic. And there are the much lower social costs of employment in the UK, often lower wages and of course the much greater ability to hire and fire.
As regards infrastructure projects, they will take place in a particular country, so will be subject to whatever health and safety regulations apply there, regardless of who wins the bid.
Indeed, the problem on investment and the like in the UK is down to governments and businesses, and nothing to do with the EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jun/20/uk-economy-in-growth-doom-loop-
And of course, whatever the position when we were in the EU, it is much more difficult now to do cross-border business. [Post edited 23 Jun 2023 11:28]
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| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 11:39 - Jun 23 with 1681 views | GeoffSentence |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 08:18 - Jun 23 by BlueBoots |
Was taught "rooves not roofs" at school myself, so I must remember that when I'm badmouthing the local urchins that they are yooves, not yoofs. |
Now we are out of Europe we can go back to 'rooves' again.
Brexit benefit right there. |  |
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| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 11:56 - Jun 23 with 1654 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 10:43 - Jun 23 by itfcjoe |
Re the first paragraph, if a business is wanting to get a factory or premises built and they can do so in UK, or elsewhere then it ends up much cheaper elsewhere due to things like being lax on regulation so it isn't just about the facetious example you've given - we couldn't compete on major infrastructure projects and this is one of the (many) reasons why but is one of the most visible. |
Companies have been choosing to invest overseas for years because costs are cheaper, mainly that's due to ongoing labour costs though rather than just the cost of building the factory. Regarding infrastructure projects, are you suggesting that foreign contractors are undercutting because they intend to then not follow our health and safety legislation when undertaking those projects? If so that's a matter for the HSE. |  |
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| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 11:57 - Jun 23 with 1648 views | eireblue |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 10:43 - Jun 23 by itfcjoe |
Re the first paragraph, if a business is wanting to get a factory or premises built and they can do so in UK, or elsewhere then it ends up much cheaper elsewhere due to things like being lax on regulation so it isn't just about the facetious example you've given - we couldn't compete on major infrastructure projects and this is one of the (many) reasons why but is one of the most visible. |
How does being out of the EU help with that situation? |  | | |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 12:15 - Jun 23 with 1618 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 10:05 - Jun 23 by ThisIsMyUsername |
You can imagine exactly how a conversation with this woman would go.
"I didn't like how the EU would set laws for us."
"What laws specifically didn't you like?"
"Well there was the one about roofs for example".
"What exactly was the law about roofs and what didn't you like about it?"
"Well you know they told us what we were allowed to do when going up on roofs".
"How has your life changed for the better now that we don't have to follow this law?"
"...................... immigrants" |
100% this.
She was probably 30 seconds from anti-immigrant rant | | | |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 12:18 - Jun 23 with 1616 views | itfcjoe |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 11:20 - Jun 23 by DJR |
I think it's a case of swings and roundabout because there are other factors that also need to be taken into account. For example, my understanding is that it is much easier to set up a business in the UK than in many other countries which are pretty bureaucratic. And there are the much lower social costs of employment in the UK, often lower wages and of course the much greater ability to hire and fire.
As regards infrastructure projects, they will take place in a particular country, so will be subject to whatever health and safety regulations apply there, regardless of who wins the bid.
Indeed, the problem on investment and the like in the UK is down to governments and businesses, and nothing to do with the EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jun/20/uk-economy-in-growth-doom-loop-
And of course, whatever the position when we were in the EU, it is much more difficult now to do cross-border business. [Post edited 23 Jun 2023 11:28]
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For me the issue is there are things that frustrate here, that can't be avoided, that cost lots of time and money and you go to the continent and it stares you in the face your annoyance so is such an easy win for a negative campaign when there are clear underlying and less obvious reasons why it happens
It's like how if you can't get a Drs appointment but you know there a lots of immigration in the area that is what stands out - not that the NHS being funded properly but that lots of new people to area means your service has been stretched | |
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| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 13:25 - Jun 23 with 1560 views | HARRY10 |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 12:18 - Jun 23 by itfcjoe |
For me the issue is there are things that frustrate here, that can't be avoided, that cost lots of time and money and you go to the continent and it stares you in the face your annoyance so is such an easy win for a negative campaign when there are clear underlying and less obvious reasons why it happens
It's like how if you can't get a Drs appointment but you know there a lots of immigration in the area that is what stands out - not that the NHS being funded properly but that lots of new people to area means your service has been stretched |
Utter tosh that is straight from the Mail, kGB Views etc.
Given that migrants are working and paying tax they are entitled to healthcare as anyone else is. So where is that tax revenue going ?
Certainly not to the NHS or staff. Failure to invest in training by a austerity mad government has left huge shortages in medical staff. Similarly, stupidly blocking off the recruitment of migrant staff is now harming peoples health. And that is not to mention those leaving the NHS to earn more as a shelf stacker, or qualified staff to migrate to Aus and European countries.
The real question is why you want tro blame migrant labour - most of whom are below 45 and so do not need as much medical treatment as bigoted older brexiters. | | | |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 13:31 - Jun 23 with 1556 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 13:25 - Jun 23 by HARRY10 |
Utter tosh that is straight from the Mail, kGB Views etc.
Given that migrants are working and paying tax they are entitled to healthcare as anyone else is. So where is that tax revenue going ?
Certainly not to the NHS or staff. Failure to invest in training by a austerity mad government has left huge shortages in medical staff. Similarly, stupidly blocking off the recruitment of migrant staff is now harming peoples health. And that is not to mention those leaving the NHS to earn more as a shelf stacker, or qualified staff to migrate to Aus and European countries.
The real question is why you want tro blame migrant labour - most of whom are below 45 and so do not need as much medical treatment as bigoted older brexiters. |
Think, in fairness to Joe, this is his view on how lots of people see things rather than being his own view. | |
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| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 13:33 - Jun 23 with 1552 views | HARRY10 |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 13:31 - Jun 23 by Herbivore |
Think, in fairness to Joe, this is his view on how lots of people see things rather than being his own view. |
if so, then humblest apologies to Joe, and GRRRR to those he lists | | | |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently (n/t) on 13:41 - Jun 23 with 1546 views | itfcjoe |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 13:25 - Jun 23 by HARRY10 |
Utter tosh that is straight from the Mail, kGB Views etc.
Given that migrants are working and paying tax they are entitled to healthcare as anyone else is. So where is that tax revenue going ?
Certainly not to the NHS or staff. Failure to invest in training by a austerity mad government has left huge shortages in medical staff. Similarly, stupidly blocking off the recruitment of migrant staff is now harming peoples health. And that is not to mention those leaving the NHS to earn more as a shelf stacker, or qualified staff to migrate to Aus and European countries.
The real question is why you want tro blame migrant labour - most of whom are below 45 and so do not need as much medical treatment as bigoted older brexiters. |
Glad you saw Herbie's post re mine.
There is a problem, and something I was listening to the other day re the Govt not having a 'population plan', there was some interesting bits on it and is in no way about pure numbers, but in trying to find an effective way to ensure you have the numbers for immigration that we need to service an older population alongside not putting too much pressure on services in pinch areas.
It's obviously difficult because people gravitate to where there familiies are, where work is and the like - but if you were to put 1,000 Ukrainian refugees into every UK city it would barely be noticeable, but if all 70k went into Southend then it is going to cause no end of problems and strain the cities services [Post edited 23 Jun 2023 13:49]
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| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 13:55 - Jun 23 with 1527 views | DJR |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 13:31 - Jun 23 by Herbivore |
Think, in fairness to Joe, this is his view on how lots of people see things rather than being his own view. |
That's certainly how I read it. | | | |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 15:13 - Jun 23 with 1475 views | Freddies_Ears |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 13:55 - Jun 23 by DJR |
That's certainly how I read it. |
Ah. I didn't read it that way, but I thought it uncharacteristic of ITFCJoe, so didn't jump in. Glad to see the clarification! | | | |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 15:21 - Jun 23 with 1465 views | WeWereZombies |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 12:15 - Jun 23 by ElderGrizzly |
100% this.
She was probably 30 seconds from anti-immigrant rant |
Is this where we cut to you and Gordon Brown in the back of a car afterwards with the exchange of:
'Who was she ?'
'Oh, some bigoted woman...' |  |
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| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 16:48 - Jun 23 with 1429 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 15:21 - Jun 23 by WeWereZombies |
Is this where we cut to you and Gordon Brown in the back of a car afterwards with the exchange of:
'Who was she ?'
'Oh, some bigoted woman...' |
Based on last night, I don't think we'd be far off.
Ill-informed or duped if I was being generous | | | |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently (n/t) on 16:53 - Jun 23 with 1417 views | DJR |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently (n/t) on 13:41 - Jun 23 by itfcjoe |
Glad you saw Herbie's post re mine.
There is a problem, and something I was listening to the other day re the Govt not having a 'population plan', there was some interesting bits on it and is in no way about pure numbers, but in trying to find an effective way to ensure you have the numbers for immigration that we need to service an older population alongside not putting too much pressure on services in pinch areas.
It's obviously difficult because people gravitate to where there familiies are, where work is and the like - but if you were to put 1,000 Ukrainian refugees into every UK city it would barely be noticeable, but if all 70k went into Southend then it is going to cause no end of problems and strain the cities services [Post edited 23 Jun 2023 13:49]
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Interestingly, the following suggests recent increases in population in England are in keeping with historical trends since the early 1800s. The difference is that we have not recently built the number of houses and the like that were built in, say, Victorian times, the 30s and the 60s, no doubt in part due to nimbyism. Nor have we put in place the type of infrastructure that would have been put in place in by municipalities in Victorian and later times and by utility companies when they were nationalised. Hence a hose pipe ban where I live not because of water shortages but because the infrastructure can't cope with increased summer demand.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/population-of-england-millennium
In Victorian times, increases in the English population would presumably have been the result of much higher birth rates, coupled with things like immigration from Ireland. In recent years, an ageing population and immigration would probably have played a much bigger part.
The problem we face at the moment, as well with respect to recruitment, is that birth rates are starting to decline again, with the result that (if immigration is curtailed or limited), you and I perhaps face an old age with, say, no one to look after us, should we need to go into a home.
I might add that Germany is alert to this issue. Hence its acceptance of 1 million refugees in the mid-2010s, and its recent relaxation on non-EU immigration.
Finally, I suppose our leaving the EU has adversely affected the equilibrium that (whatever its faults) existed before we left, and it is difficult to see how we will ever get it back. [Post edited 23 Jun 2023 17:01]
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| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 17:24 - Jun 23 with 1371 views | HARRY10 |
It was not a higher birthrate, but a greater survival rate. Death in infancy began to slow with better healthcare - much as with soldiers in the Crimea and Florence Nightingown.
The rot set in, in the 1980s with council house being flogged off cheap, to buy votes, as did so much else that were the basics of the economy. Encouraging folk to take on more debt mean that the inevitable correction would always mean a massive blow to many. That is why there is so much pressure to stop house building
"It will destroy the countryside" bleat the nimbys, oblivious to the fact their house were once green land. A total misuse of the land allows owners of enormous swathes to parcel it out sparingly, so as to keep the price high. Much as the big building companies who have huge amounts in what is known as land banks.
The idiocy of rightie thinking has once again brought the house of cards down round our ears.
How is it so many fall for the same 3 card trick everytime ? | | | |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently (n/t) on 17:36 - Jun 23 with 1341 views | itfcjoe |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently (n/t) on 16:53 - Jun 23 by DJR |
Interestingly, the following suggests recent increases in population in England are in keeping with historical trends since the early 1800s. The difference is that we have not recently built the number of houses and the like that were built in, say, Victorian times, the 30s and the 60s, no doubt in part due to nimbyism. Nor have we put in place the type of infrastructure that would have been put in place in by municipalities in Victorian and later times and by utility companies when they were nationalised. Hence a hose pipe ban where I live not because of water shortages but because the infrastructure can't cope with increased summer demand.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/population-of-england-millennium
In Victorian times, increases in the English population would presumably have been the result of much higher birth rates, coupled with things like immigration from Ireland. In recent years, an ageing population and immigration would probably have played a much bigger part.
The problem we face at the moment, as well with respect to recruitment, is that birth rates are starting to decline again, with the result that (if immigration is curtailed or limited), you and I perhaps face an old age with, say, no one to look after us, should we need to go into a home.
I might add that Germany is alert to this issue. Hence its acceptance of 1 million refugees in the mid-2010s, and its recent relaxation on non-EU immigration.
Finally, I suppose our leaving the EU has adversely affected the equilibrium that (whatever its faults) existed before we left, and it is difficult to see how we will ever get it back. [Post edited 23 Jun 2023 17:01]
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You just have to look at the labour market to see how desperately we need immigration at the moment - this is one of the big factors driving inflation | |
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| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 17:40 - Jun 23 with 1326 views | itfcjoe |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently on 17:24 - Jun 23 by HARRY10 |
It was not a higher birthrate, but a greater survival rate. Death in infancy began to slow with better healthcare - much as with soldiers in the Crimea and Florence Nightingown.
The rot set in, in the 1980s with council house being flogged off cheap, to buy votes, as did so much else that were the basics of the economy. Encouraging folk to take on more debt mean that the inevitable correction would always mean a massive blow to many. That is why there is so much pressure to stop house building
"It will destroy the countryside" bleat the nimbys, oblivious to the fact their house were once green land. A total misuse of the land allows owners of enormous swathes to parcel it out sparingly, so as to keep the price high. Much as the big building companies who have huge amounts in what is known as land banks.
The idiocy of rightie thinking has once again brought the house of cards down round our ears.
How is it so many fall for the same 3 card trick everytime ? |
We’ve got a plot of land, it’s about 2/3 of an acre and we have planning in for 2 houses on there - admittedly these are high end and won’t do anything to alleviate the housing crisis….:but despite full support from planner, and a couple of objections we are now having to go to a referral stage
This is because the parish council have said they think the land is being overdeveloped. It’s laughable - you could fit 8 houses on there - but with new councillors in the area the planners have no idea how it will go at the next stage
More beauracy, I think these new councillors are greens now who seem to be anti house building | |
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| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently (n/t) on 17:59 - Jun 23 with 1297 views | DJR |
| Brexit - it was all about the roofs apparently (n/t) on 17:36 - Jun 23 by itfcjoe |
You just have to look at the labour market to see how desperately we need immigration at the moment - this is one of the big factors driving inflation |
As if to confirm this, I received today an unsolicited email from the dealer at which I get my car serviced inviting me to a recruitment evening. It included the following passage,.
"You will have the opportunity to see one of our sites, meet our teams and talk about all opportunities within the Arden Group. These include all levels of experience from apprenticeships/novice through to experienced level positions within retail sales, service & accident repair, parts, corporate sales, customer service, and within our group accounts & administration departments as well as group logistics positions such as drivers and car park hosts." [Post edited 23 Jun 2023 18:02]
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