| FFS Starmer 07:45 - Jun 29 with 11667 views | GlasgowBlue |
Not happy about this latest u turn tbh. Johnson dismantling DfID was a shameful, populist and very harmful move. Starmer gave a pledge to bring it back.
Sorry for going all koonters but he’s u turning on just about everything.
[Post edited 29 Jun 2023 8:07]
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| FFS Starmer on 20:46 - Jun 29 with 1522 views | Herbivore |
| FFS Starmer on 19:28 - Jun 29 by ibbleobble |
So we tax those who have profited from capitalism the most and redistribute that wealth to stimulate economic growth to drive consumption up. So effectively, we tax people to get some money off them to give it back to them to afford to exist under an illusion of what, prosperity?
In other words, your theory is we replace capitalism with…capitalism! And you have a poke at me for flawed arguments? Maybe rein it in a little before you jump on BlueBadger’s Guardian bandwagon recital.
Your way out of the vicious circle is, degrowth, not growth. Taxing the rich to give to the poor is Robin Hood nonsense and a deeply flawed populist theory. [Post edited 29 Jun 2023 20:47]
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My solution personally is to replace capitalism with communism but that's unlikely to happen so I'm being pragmatic. You've just spouted a load of b0llocks, basically, which is probably why your arguments end up getting mocked. |  |
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| FFS Starmer on 20:59 - Jun 29 with 1496 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| FFS Starmer on 20:35 - Jun 29 by The_Flashing_Smile |
A vote isn't about one day though is it?
Regardless, you're still just avoiding the questions. You're a bin shouter and a fraud. |
On a personal level yes it is. |  |
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| FFS Starmer on 21:06 - Jun 29 with 1485 views | ibbleobble |
| FFS Starmer on 20:46 - Jun 29 by Herbivore |
My solution personally is to replace capitalism with communism but that's unlikely to happen so I'm being pragmatic. You've just spouted a load of b0llocks, basically, which is probably why your arguments end up getting mocked. |
My reply is “bollox” (eloquent) because it mocks a lazy popular tabloid view? I think the term bollox is far better suited to your view on growth from taxing the rich being a prosperous way out of capitalism.
The Guardian TWTD poster boy Manbiot is arguing against GDP being a measure of progress; he’s inferring that degrowth is a strategy out of Capitalism ie: a change in societal frameworks not to uphold existing ones. Growth, (which you infer is the answer) has a ceiling. It’s impossible to keep growing with finite resources and space. Any theory about true sustainable prosperity that thinks growth is the answer needs some very good innovative ideas to argue how it can perpetuate.
Bollox I say. |  | | |
| FFS Starmer on 21:07 - Jun 29 with 1482 views | Swansea_Blue |
| FFS Starmer on 20:04 - Jun 29 by Bugs |
You're not left wing if you privatise sh!t loads of our national infrastructure (including schools and the NHS) and become a poodle to G.W. Bush and get involved in dodgy wars. |
You can’t pigeon hole him in terms of simple left v right or socialism v conservatism/capitalism. His policies were a melding of everything. There were very obvious socialist ideas like improving access to education for all; social support structures like the minimum wage, childcare support, paternity rights; increasing social mobility; and investment in public services. And then there were things you’d normally associate with the Tories like embracing market capitalism and the NHS PFI stuff.
If people want to put him in a box, that’s fine but not especially helpful. I’d argue the more important distinction between Blair/Brown and what we have now is (a) they got things done, and (b) what they did resulted in more positive outcomes. |  |
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| FFS Starmer on 21:09 - Jun 29 with 1479 views | Lord_Lucan |
Starmer is basically what used to be known as a Tory Wet.
I’d rather someone like Rayner had the job, at least we would have a direction.
I may disagree with someone’s politics but I’m wanting a direction. What is no good, and what I can’t abide is wishy washy no marks - and Starmer is a wishy washy no mark. |  |
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| FFS Starmer on 21:21 - Jun 29 with 1470 views | Herbivore |
| FFS Starmer on 21:06 - Jun 29 by ibbleobble |
My reply is “bollox” (eloquent) because it mocks a lazy popular tabloid view? I think the term bollox is far better suited to your view on growth from taxing the rich being a prosperous way out of capitalism.
The Guardian TWTD poster boy Manbiot is arguing against GDP being a measure of progress; he’s inferring that degrowth is a strategy out of Capitalism ie: a change in societal frameworks not to uphold existing ones. Growth, (which you infer is the answer) has a ceiling. It’s impossible to keep growing with finite resources and space. Any theory about true sustainable prosperity that thinks growth is the answer needs some very good innovative ideas to argue how it can perpetuate.
Bollox I say. |
Which tabloids are you reading that suggest higher taxes for the most well off? | |
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| FFS Starmer (n/t) on 21:26 - Jun 29 with 1462 views | WD19 |
| FFS Starmer on 14:34 - Jun 29 by Ryorry |
Read the thread. |
[Post edited 29 Jun 2023 21:32]
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| FFS Starmer on 21:42 - Jun 29 with 1452 views | Bugs |
| FFS Starmer on 21:07 - Jun 29 by Swansea_Blue |
You can’t pigeon hole him in terms of simple left v right or socialism v conservatism/capitalism. His policies were a melding of everything. There were very obvious socialist ideas like improving access to education for all; social support structures like the minimum wage, childcare support, paternity rights; increasing social mobility; and investment in public services. And then there were things you’d normally associate with the Tories like embracing market capitalism and the NHS PFI stuff.
If people want to put him in a box, that’s fine but not especially helpful. I’d argue the more important distinction between Blair/Brown and what we have now is (a) they got things done, and (b) what they did resulted in more positive outcomes. |
I get your point that it's not that black and white, life, rarely is.
But most of the stuff you have mentioned have been done by right wing parties abroad. It's just that you're comparing Blair with the utter nutters of the post Thatcher Tories.
Improving education for all means introducing tuition fees? Removing the advantages his generation had from the others that follow? Handing over the education of our kids to dodgy academies? Being less nasty and actually having a comprehension of society, unlike than the Tories, doesn't make Blair even close to left wing on most issues.
I voted for Blair and quickly became disillusioned. Starmer I became disillusioned with due to his Labour Party leadership election lies and left wing labour members purge. The man is a snake.
I'm not going to pretend I'm clever enough to know what the answer is, but a Starmer Labour Party isn't.
We deserve better than less bad than the Tories. Currently, that's all Labour is offering. |  | | |
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| FFS Starmer on 21:46 - Jun 29 with 1443 views | Clapham_Junction |
Another (and much bigger) Labour disappointment is Lisa Nandy saying they won't abolish right to buy in England (Scotland and Wales already having done it).
Reversing what is IMO one of the most damaging domestic policies of all time should be a day 1 priority for any non-Tory Housing Minister. |  | | |
| FFS Starmer on 22:10 - Jun 29 with 1404 views | Swansea_Blue |
| FFS Starmer on 21:42 - Jun 29 by Bugs |
I get your point that it's not that black and white, life, rarely is.
But most of the stuff you have mentioned have been done by right wing parties abroad. It's just that you're comparing Blair with the utter nutters of the post Thatcher Tories.
Improving education for all means introducing tuition fees? Removing the advantages his generation had from the others that follow? Handing over the education of our kids to dodgy academies? Being less nasty and actually having a comprehension of society, unlike than the Tories, doesn't make Blair even close to left wing on most issues.
I voted for Blair and quickly became disillusioned. Starmer I became disillusioned with due to his Labour Party leadership election lies and left wing labour members purge. The man is a snake.
I'm not going to pretend I'm clever enough to know what the answer is, but a Starmer Labour Party isn't.
We deserve better than less bad than the Tories. Currently, that's all Labour is offering. |
I’m comparing them with Thatcher and Major too. We were on our knees after them, just as we are now.
Introducing Uni fees was the thin end of the wedge and I don’t agree with that. But the rationale was to fund the expansion of provision, in which they were very successful. They also increased participation from the more disadvantaged/poorer social groups. Policy then was taking universities in a very different direction to now. Pay awards were also more generous in those periods. I wasn’t in any way a cheerleader of Blair/Brown at the time, but from my own career in the Uni sector, we were in a much better, more inclusive position back then.
I reckon I’m politically homeless. I’ll probably vote Labour irrespective of Starmer, just as I did last time irrespective of Corbyn. Mainly because the manifesto will be much closer to my values than the Tory one will be, and our Labour MP seems fine (and leaders change, so I’m not interested in their personality).
In Welsh Assembly and locals I’ll probably look at Plaid tbh, or just go with the non-Tory who seems the most invested and genuine. I’d like to support the greens, but they have some dodgy ideas away from their core views (Caroline Lucas comes across as a superb MP and will be a big loss from the House). | |
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| FFS Starmer on 22:10 - Jun 29 with 1401 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
"What's your solution? Bitch about Starmer on a football messageboard?
"When it's too late?" So it's not too late now? Brilliant. Where do I sign and what do I need to do?"
3 pages since I asked. 3 pages of swerving from you.
Ever thought of getting into politics? |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| FFS Starmer on 22:17 - Jun 29 with 1382 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| FFS Starmer on 22:10 - Jun 29 by The_Flashing_Smile |
"What's your solution? Bitch about Starmer on a football messageboard?
"When it's too late?" So it's not too late now? Brilliant. Where do I sign and what do I need to do?"
3 pages since I asked. 3 pages of swerving from you.
Ever thought of getting into politics? |
I've answered it all before but you seem to have forgotten.
What upsets you so much about having Starmer and his party's obvious failings pointed out on a football message board? | |
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| FFS Starmer on 22:18 - Jun 29 with 1377 views | NeedhamChris |
| FFS Starmer on 22:10 - Jun 29 by The_Flashing_Smile |
"What's your solution? Bitch about Starmer on a football messageboard?
"When it's too late?" So it's not too late now? Brilliant. Where do I sign and what do I need to do?"
3 pages since I asked. 3 pages of swerving from you.
Ever thought of getting into politics? |
Are you having a tough time? You could just leave the conversation alone if you think it's pointless.
It's a forum for sharing views, which is all I can see anyone doing here. | |
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| FFS Starmer on 22:20 - Jun 29 with 1365 views | NeedhamChris |
Agreed.
I don't think it's too much to ask to expect some level of honesty about what people stand for.
I'm no fan of Owen Jones and the like, but they're right to say they were decieved | |
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| FFS Starmer on 22:24 - Jun 29 with 1343 views | Swansea_Blue |
| FFS Starmer on 22:17 - Jun 29 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I've answered it all before but you seem to have forgotten.
What upsets you so much about having Starmer and his party's obvious failings pointed out on a football message board? |
Constantly undermining him makes me nervous that we’ll get more Tory, which would be a disaster. There’s a scary number of voters out there that would be daft enough to stick with the status quo, not quite making the connection between their voting pattern and why their life is crap.
So there is that. It’s why I always add ‘but of course they’d be better than this Tory sh*tshow’ after I criticise Starmer (which I seem to be doing a lot more - I can’t remember the last time Labour impressed me with a policy position that didn’t then change a short while later). | |
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| FFS Starmer on 22:25 - Jun 29 with 1341 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| FFS Starmer on 22:18 - Jun 29 by NeedhamChris |
Are you having a tough time? You could just leave the conversation alone if you think it's pointless.
It's a forum for sharing views, which is all I can see anyone doing here. |
Dolly's modus operandi is to always get the last word. You are in a whole world of strife now. Good luck! | |
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| FFS Starmer on 22:31 - Jun 29 with 1330 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| FFS Starmer on 22:10 - Jun 29 by Swansea_Blue |
I’m comparing them with Thatcher and Major too. We were on our knees after them, just as we are now.
Introducing Uni fees was the thin end of the wedge and I don’t agree with that. But the rationale was to fund the expansion of provision, in which they were very successful. They also increased participation from the more disadvantaged/poorer social groups. Policy then was taking universities in a very different direction to now. Pay awards were also more generous in those periods. I wasn’t in any way a cheerleader of Blair/Brown at the time, but from my own career in the Uni sector, we were in a much better, more inclusive position back then.
I reckon I’m politically homeless. I’ll probably vote Labour irrespective of Starmer, just as I did last time irrespective of Corbyn. Mainly because the manifesto will be much closer to my values than the Tory one will be, and our Labour MP seems fine (and leaders change, so I’m not interested in their personality).
In Welsh Assembly and locals I’ll probably look at Plaid tbh, or just go with the non-Tory who seems the most invested and genuine. I’d like to support the greens, but they have some dodgy ideas away from their core views (Caroline Lucas comes across as a superb MP and will be a big loss from the House). |
Would be interested to hear some of those dodgy ideas. | |
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| FFS Starmer on 22:34 - Jun 29 with 1327 views | Swansea_Blue |
| FFS Starmer on 22:20 - Jun 29 by NeedhamChris |
Agreed.
I don't think it's too much to ask to expect some level of honesty about what people stand for.
I'm no fan of Owen Jones and the like, but they're right to say they were decieved |
They don’t do values, principles and honesty. It’s all knee jerk reaction from focus groups and testing with media leaks to see how things land with voters. I hate it. It’s reactive, negative, vision-less politics. | |
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| FFS Starmer on 22:34 - Jun 29 with 1327 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| FFS Starmer on 22:24 - Jun 29 by Swansea_Blue |
Constantly undermining him makes me nervous that we’ll get more Tory, which would be a disaster. There’s a scary number of voters out there that would be daft enough to stick with the status quo, not quite making the connection between their voting pattern and why their life is crap.
So there is that. It’s why I always add ‘but of course they’d be better than this Tory sh*tshow’ after I criticise Starmer (which I seem to be doing a lot more - I can’t remember the last time Labour impressed me with a policy position that didn’t then change a short while later). |
We will be getting more tory but not the ones you're worried about for now at least....until their next turn. | |
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| FFS Starmer on 22:37 - Jun 29 with 1320 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| FFS Starmer on 22:18 - Jun 29 by NeedhamChris |
Are you having a tough time? You could just leave the conversation alone if you think it's pointless.
It's a forum for sharing views, which is all I can see anyone doing here. |
Another personal attack when I wasn't even talking to you.
Bankster talks about us doing something before it's too late, so I think it's reasonable to ask what we should be doing.
It's not just a forum for sharing views without any challenges or questions to those views. That's the debating equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalala I can't hear you."
The truth of the matter is Bankster just loves sounding off and doesn't have any answers. He intimates that not voting Labour is an answer but of course he'll never say it, because you then just end up with the Tories again.
Shouting into a bin. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| FFS Starmer on 22:40 - Jun 29 with 1318 views | positivity |
| FFS Starmer on 19:34 - Jun 29 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Well he was wasn't he..P.P.I,....resource wars etc....privatising health...student loans.....what did I miss?
I've got used to it so I'll be fine thanks. |
"tony blair/keir starmer/angela rayner are right wing"
"i will happily vote for redwood, farage, johnson, rees-mogg, because i trust them to bring me my glorious independence"
wibble | |
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| FFS Starmer on 22:52 - Jun 29 with 1308 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| FFS Starmer on 22:37 - Jun 29 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Another personal attack when I wasn't even talking to you.
Bankster talks about us doing something before it's too late, so I think it's reasonable to ask what we should be doing.
It's not just a forum for sharing views without any challenges or questions to those views. That's the debating equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalala I can't hear you."
The truth of the matter is Bankster just loves sounding off and doesn't have any answers. He intimates that not voting Labour is an answer but of course he'll never say it, because you then just end up with the Tories again.
Shouting into a bin. |
You're going to have to remind me about the "too late" thing as I can't keep up.
It's not for me to tell you what to do Dolly, never has been, never will. If you are comfortable with your choices and what you expect to result from them then fill your boots.
I have only ever voted for Corbyn's version of Labour and the Green Party or not voted at all but these votes are probably the least 'political ' things I have ever done. Truth of the matter is that you know sweet FA about me and what I may or may not have done to further my hopes and wishes for what society could be. Fair to say that the choices I have made have led to my life being far less comfortable in a material sense than it could easily have been but I try my best to sleep comfortably at night and so far am largely content with the choices I have made.
Anyway back to my bin!!
Sorry you feel so put out by my pointing out the reality of Tweedledum and Tweedledee. | |
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| FFS Starmer on 22:54 - Jun 29 with 1307 views | Swansea_Blue |
Anyway, this webinar tomorrow evening may be of interest to those of you who think we need a different approach.
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| FFS Starmer on 22:56 - Jun 29 with 1295 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| FFS Starmer on 22:40 - Jun 29 by positivity |
"tony blair/keir starmer/angela rayner are right wing"
"i will happily vote for redwood, farage, johnson, rees-mogg, because i trust them to bring me my glorious independence"
wibble |
You need a massive lesson in the use of quotation marks and capital letters. It seems your capacity for fantasy goes beyond just your blind faith in Starmer. | |
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| FFS Starmer on 23:05 - Jun 29 with 1269 views | ibbleobble |
| FFS Starmer on 21:21 - Jun 29 by Herbivore |
Which tabloids are you reading that suggest higher taxes for the most well off? |
I quit mainstream media a long time ago. Others would be well advised to do the same. | | | |
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