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Not happy about this latest u turn tbh. Johnson dismantling DfID was a shameful, populist and very harmful move. Starmer gave a pledge to bring it back.
Sorry for going all koonters but he’s u turning on just about everything.
You can’t pigeon hole him in terms of simple left v right or socialism v conservatism/capitalism. His policies were a melding of everything. There were very obvious socialist ideas like improving access to education for all; social support structures like the minimum wage, childcare support, paternity rights; increasing social mobility; and investment in public services. And then there were things you’d normally associate with the Tories like embracing market capitalism and the NHS PFI stuff.
If people want to put him in a box, that’s fine but not especially helpful. I’d argue the more important distinction between Blair/Brown and what we have now is (a) they got things done, and (b) what they did resulted in more positive outcomes.
'more positive outcomes'. Why won't you underline the obvious and his atrocities? Why? Because of your warped leftish ideology?
The obvious.....one of the examples.....Iraq......or Afghanistan
Would you tell Iraq's people in their faces about his 'positive outcomes'? Millions of Iraq people affected by war crimes?
He should rot in prison. But he got knighted for what he did.
We have plenty of experts on here about Putin and his actions. The difference between him and Blair? None.
I'm sure that BBC and The Guardian will never say a bad word about Blair.
Now, go on and defend his actions at Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya.
I’m comparing them with Thatcher and Major too. We were on our knees after them, just as we are now.
Introducing Uni fees was the thin end of the wedge and I don’t agree with that. But the rationale was to fund the expansion of provision, in which they were very successful. They also increased participation from the more disadvantaged/poorer social groups. Policy then was taking universities in a very different direction to now. Pay awards were also more generous in those periods. I wasn’t in any way a cheerleader of Blair/Brown at the time, but from my own career in the Uni sector, we were in a much better, more inclusive position back then.
I reckon I’m politically homeless. I’ll probably vote Labour irrespective of Starmer, just as I did last time irrespective of Corbyn. Mainly because the manifesto will be much closer to my values than the Tory one will be, and our Labour MP seems fine (and leaders change, so I’m not interested in their personality).
In Welsh Assembly and locals I’ll probably look at Plaid tbh, or just go with the non-Tory who seems the most invested and genuine. I’d like to support the greens, but they have some dodgy ideas away from their core views (Caroline Lucas comes across as a superb MP and will be a big loss from the House).
“I’m comparing them with Thatcher and Major too. We were on our knees after them, just as we are now”
Is this a joke post? How old are you? Did you live through the pre Thatcher era? I did and even as a youngster it sticks with me. If you think we are screwed now you would have self capitulated before Thatcher hit the rostrum.
Now then now then.
It’s a different world. Back in the day the Tories wanted to go into the Europe thing but Labour didn’t. Also we had nationalised utilities and trains and it was bloody awful.
I’m not saying things are acceptable now but I wonder why people think a nationalised sh1t would be any different.
Same sh1t, different day baby.
“Hello, I'm your MP. Actually I'm not. I'm your candidate. Gosh.”
Boris Johnson canvassing in Henley, 2005.
“I’m comparing them with Thatcher and Major too. We were on our knees after them, just as we are now”
Is this a joke post? How old are you? Did you live through the pre Thatcher era? I did and even as a youngster it sticks with me. If you think we are screwed now you would have self capitulated before Thatcher hit the rostrum.
Now then now then.
It’s a different world. Back in the day the Tories wanted to go into the Europe thing but Labour didn’t. Also we had nationalised utilities and trains and it was bloody awful.
I’m not saying things are acceptable now but I wonder why people think a nationalised sh1t would be any different.
Same sh1t, different day baby.
Taking aside Thatcher, who continues to be a decisive figure even 10 years after her death, to say we were on our knees after Major is ridiculous.
When Major left office we had growth that has never been beaten and low inflation. It’s widely acknowledged that the economy was in fantastic shape when Major left office and Brown/ Blair continued the Tory spending plans for the first two years of they were in office.
“ Thirdly, there was the economic recovery following the exit from the ERM. Inflation, unemployment, living standards, and economic growth all moved in a positive direction. He bequeathed to Tony Blair a more favourable economic legacy than virtually all of his predecessors. But it was a vote-less economic recovery. The government gained no credit for an economic up-turn which followed the exit from the ERM.”
Edit. I was actually only going to address his Major comment for fear of starting ten pages of Thatcher comments, but I’m guessing that Swansea isn’t old enough to remember the Thatcher/ Major years, so is just trotting out an I’ll informed assessment. Some of us are old enough to remember the winter of discontent under Labour, the weekly strikes, the IMF having to bail the UK out, bodies going unburied, rubbish going uncollected, food shortages etc.
This is a fair assessment of Thatcher by the former Liberal leader Ming Campbell at 13.05.
You're going to have to remind me about the "too late" thing as I can't keep up. It's not for me to tell you what to do Dolly, never has been, never will. If you are comfortable with your choices and what you expect to result from them then fill your boots. I have only ever voted for Corbyn's version of Labour and the Green Party or not voted at all but these votes are probably the least 'political ' things I have ever done. Truth of the matter is that you know sweet FA about me and what I may or may not have done to further my hopes and wishes for what society could be. Fair to say that the choices I have made have led to my life being far less comfortable in a material sense than it could easily have been but I try my best to sleep comfortably at night and so far am largely content with the choices I have made. Anyway back to my bin!! Sorry you feel so put out by my pointing out the reality of Tweedledum and Tweedledee.
Thank you. An answer at last (sort of). Took you around 4 pages but I got one in the end.
Ryorry said: "FFS. How about seeing what he *actually* does, if and when he’s able to, because actually in power" and you replied, "You mean when it's too late?" That suggested to me there's something we can do about it, now. (BTW suggesting things people can do isn't the same as telling them what to do).
I'm glad you ARE doing something rather than just shouting on here, but unless you fill us in on the detail you can see why it looks like just shouting?
Obviously I voted for Corbyn and wanted to see his policies for this country. At the moment that's the best I can do (I don't have the time, let alone the knowledge, to run for office or start a political party/movement myself. My partner does her bit - working for the Living Wage Foundation for many years, and now about to apply for a job at the Fair Trade Foundation, so I feel like I've married into 'doing our bit' ).
I'm kinda in the Ryorry camp of holding my nose and voting for Starmer, hoping he's going to bring in the good stuff once he's in power. I had my fingers burned with Corbyn in that respect - he showed his hand and the public ran a mile.
We could well be wrong, though. Starmer may well be not much better than the Tories. But if a bit better is the best we can realistically get then at least that's something. And there's always a chance that if Starmer pisses off Labour supporters so much (due to being Tory lite) he could be ousted, with Labour still in power, and then we get someone more 'Labour' taking over. It's a long shot, admittedly, but the best I can see.
Taking aside Thatcher, who continues to be a decisive figure even 10 years after her death, to say we were on our knees after Major is ridiculous.
When Major left office we had growth that has never been beaten and low inflation. It’s widely acknowledged that the economy was in fantastic shape when Major left office and Brown/ Blair continued the Tory spending plans for the first two years of they were in office.
“ Thirdly, there was the economic recovery following the exit from the ERM. Inflation, unemployment, living standards, and economic growth all moved in a positive direction. He bequeathed to Tony Blair a more favourable economic legacy than virtually all of his predecessors. But it was a vote-less economic recovery. The government gained no credit for an economic up-turn which followed the exit from the ERM.”
Edit. I was actually only going to address his Major comment for fear of starting ten pages of Thatcher comments, but I’m guessing that Swansea isn’t old enough to remember the Thatcher/ Major years, so is just trotting out an I’ll informed assessment. Some of us are old enough to remember the winter of discontent under Labour, the weekly strikes, the IMF having to bail the UK out, bodies going unburied, rubbish going uncollected, food shortages etc.
This is a fair assessment of Thatcher by the former Liberal leader Ming Campbell at 13.05.
[Post edited 30 Jun 2023 6:51]
"Some of us are old enough to remember the winter of discontent under Labour, the weekly strikes, the IMF having to bail the UK out, bodies going unburied, rubbish going uncollected, food shortages etc."
I never understand these sorts of comments (it's the sort of argument against Labour my dad would have). The people running Labour then are long gone (many of them dead) so what is there to suggest anything similar would happen now? The only thing that remains is the name and the colour red. It's like saying Ipswich are champions of Europe.
'more positive outcomes'. Why won't you underline the obvious and his atrocities? Why? Because of your warped leftish ideology?
The obvious.....one of the examples.....Iraq......or Afghanistan
Would you tell Iraq's people in their faces about his 'positive outcomes'? Millions of Iraq people affected by war crimes?
He should rot in prison. But he got knighted for what he did.
We have plenty of experts on here about Putin and his actions. The difference between him and Blair? None.
I'm sure that BBC and The Guardian will never say a bad word about Blair.
Now, go on and defend his actions at Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya.
Point of order here, the Libya debacle was David Cameron. Defending Blair's actions in Iraq would certainly be a "warped leftish ideology", it wouldn't be leftish at all. I'd also point out that the Iraq invasion was fully backed by the Conservatives at the time.
"Some of us are old enough to remember the winter of discontent under Labour, the weekly strikes, the IMF having to bail the UK out, bodies going unburied, rubbish going uncollected, food shortages etc."
I never understand these sorts of comments (it's the sort of argument against Labour my dad would have). The people running Labour then are long gone (many of them dead) so what is there to suggest anything similar would happen now? The only thing that remains is the name and the colour red. It's like saying Ipswich are champions of Europe.
Where am I comparing Labour today with Labour of 1979? or suggesting that Labour of 2023 would perform as poorly as Labour of 1979I’m voting for the 2023 version of Labour, despite growing reservations about Starmer.
Swansea gave a critique of Thatcher/Major leaving the country in its knees and. I gave context to what Thatcher inherited from Labour compared to what Blair inherited from Major.
Do you actually read these threads before taking aimless swings?
Where am I comparing Labour today with Labour of 1979? or suggesting that Labour of 2023 would perform as poorly as Labour of 1979I’m voting for the 2023 version of Labour, despite growing reservations about Starmer.
Swansea gave a critique of Thatcher/Major leaving the country in its knees and. I gave context to what Thatcher inherited from Labour compared to what Blair inherited from Major.
Do you actually read these threads before taking aimless swings?
[Post edited 30 Jun 2023 8:01]
Calm down petal, I wasn't suggesting you were. I was talking about the comment itself and how it's trotted out as a reason to not vote Labour. Apologies if I worded it badly (only just woken up) but wasn't a swing at you.
Where am I comparing Labour today with Labour of 1979? or suggesting that Labour of 2023 would perform as poorly as Labour of 1979I’m voting for the 2023 version of Labour, despite growing reservations about Starmer.
Swansea gave a critique of Thatcher/Major leaving the country in its knees and. I gave context to what Thatcher inherited from Labour compared to what Blair inherited from Major.
Do you actually read these threads before taking aimless swings?
[Post edited 30 Jun 2023 8:01]
As someone who grew up in the 1960s and 70s, my abiding memories of the Labour government and the country were not as you describe, but obviously we can agree to disagree on that point.
But I do accept what you say about growth under Major. Indeed, rather like May, I think he is a rather maligned figure, in his case mainly because people had become sick of the Tories, and in May's case because she was a poor communicator, and in both cases because of Tory infighting over Europe.
You need a massive lesson in the use of quotation marks and capital letters. It seems your capacity for fantasy goes beyond just your blind faith in Starmer.
did you say tony blair and the current labour party are right wing?
did you vote for brexit?
i have no blind faith in starmer, of the last 7 labour leaders, he's currently 6th. however 'm sure he'll be a lot better as a prime minister than the brexiteer tories you enabled and continue to enable.
(capital letters are over-rated, strange for an anarchist to be a grammar pedant!
As someone who grew up in the 1960s and 70s, my abiding memories of the Labour government and the country were not as you describe, but obviously we can agree to disagree on that point.
But I do accept what you say about growth under Major. Indeed, rather like May, I think he is a rather maligned figure, in his case mainly because people had become sick of the Tories, and in May's case because she was a poor communicator, and in both cases because of Tory infighting over Europe.
[Post edited 30 Jun 2023 8:34]
This is an interesting article about growth under the Tories and Labour. It suggests that there is little difference but interestingly shows that growth under the Callaghan government and that averaged over the three Blair governments was higher than that under the Major government and the Tory governments since 2010. It was also higher than that averaged over the three Thatcher governments.
did you say tony blair and the current labour party are right wing?
did you vote for brexit?
i have no blind faith in starmer, of the last 7 labour leaders, he's currently 6th. however 'm sure he'll be a lot better as a prime minister than the brexiteer tories you enabled and continue to enable.
(capital letters are over-rated, strange for an anarchist to be a grammar pedant!
Economically I'd say both are/were right of centre.
Another (and much bigger) Labour disappointment is Lisa Nandy saying they won't abolish right to buy in England (Scotland and Wales already having done it).
Reversing what is IMO one of the most damaging domestic policies of all time should be a day 1 priority for any non-Tory Housing Minister.
That is disappointing but to be expected given Blair didn't abolish it either, and the New Blairites are now in charge.
Taking aside Thatcher, who continues to be a decisive figure even 10 years after her death, to say we were on our knees after Major is ridiculous.
When Major left office we had growth that has never been beaten and low inflation. It’s widely acknowledged that the economy was in fantastic shape when Major left office and Brown/ Blair continued the Tory spending plans for the first two years of they were in office.
“ Thirdly, there was the economic recovery following the exit from the ERM. Inflation, unemployment, living standards, and economic growth all moved in a positive direction. He bequeathed to Tony Blair a more favourable economic legacy than virtually all of his predecessors. But it was a vote-less economic recovery. The government gained no credit for an economic up-turn which followed the exit from the ERM.”
Edit. I was actually only going to address his Major comment for fear of starting ten pages of Thatcher comments, but I’m guessing that Swansea isn’t old enough to remember the Thatcher/ Major years, so is just trotting out an I’ll informed assessment. Some of us are old enough to remember the winter of discontent under Labour, the weekly strikes, the IMF having to bail the UK out, bodies going unburied, rubbish going uncollected, food shortages etc.
This is a fair assessment of Thatcher by the former Liberal leader Ming Campbell at 13.05.
[Post edited 30 Jun 2023 6:51]
Yeah, that was a stupid thing to say and not fair on Major. In hindsight he got a lot right and his heart was far more in the right place than the likes of Thatcher. He benefited from riding the wave of western economic recovery following the early 90s recession and decoupling the £ from the ERM eventually helped with that (despite that being forced on him). There were downsides of course - although the cost of Black Wednesday was relatively small compared to the costs of waste and incompetence we now see.
It wasn't a good time for all of us though - the relative underfunding of services continued (albeit it much better than the Cameron/May years) and he laid the groundwork (built upon by Blair) for some of the predicaments we are now only starting to feel the impacts of (like PFI and privatisation of transport).
So very much a mixed bag. I'm plenty old enough, thanks. And saw the impacts first hand through some of their attacks on certain parts of our society (family comes from Warwickshire mining community).
Yeah, that was a stupid thing to say and not fair on Major. In hindsight he got a lot right and his heart was far more in the right place than the likes of Thatcher. He benefited from riding the wave of western economic recovery following the early 90s recession and decoupling the £ from the ERM eventually helped with that (despite that being forced on him). There were downsides of course - although the cost of Black Wednesday was relatively small compared to the costs of waste and incompetence we now see.
It wasn't a good time for all of us though - the relative underfunding of services continued (albeit it much better than the Cameron/May years) and he laid the groundwork (built upon by Blair) for some of the predicaments we are now only starting to feel the impacts of (like PFI and privatisation of transport).
So very much a mixed bag. I'm plenty old enough, thanks. And saw the impacts first hand through some of their attacks on certain parts of our society (family comes from Warwickshire mining community).
Apologies if my reply last tight seemed a bit terse, it wasn’t meant to be.
Edit - there is a great argument for nationalising transport, energy etc - I completely get that.
But - I do question why people think it will all be a bed of roses, when governments are skint they will not invest in services.
They will also screw you, this is nailed on.
[Post edited 30 Jun 2023 12:15]
“Hello, I'm your MP. Actually I'm not. I'm your candidate. Gosh.”
Boris Johnson canvassing in Henley, 2005.
FFS Starmer by ibbleobble29 Jun 2023 23:05 I quit mainstream media a long time ago. Others would be well advised to do the same.
No comprendo.
Reading it. I work in policy within a mass media organisation. We conduct primary research into global topics but I’m close to how these topics are presented. I prescribe to the work and the opportunity to try and make a difference with that work, not the nonsense that unfortunately comes with working in large global media institutions.
Reading it. I work in policy within a mass media organisation. We conduct primary research into global topics but I’m close to how these topics are presented. I prescribe to the work and the opportunity to try and make a difference with that work, not the nonsense that unfortunately comes with working in large global media institutions.
Blimey, you do more swerves than Fingermouse!
You are the obsolete SRN4 to my Fairey Rotodyne....
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