| Question for the older members of the board 16:23 - Jul 5 with 6860 views | SitfcB |
…Factual, PJH etc.
Or those that maybe know.
With the NHS being 75 today, and never having really thought about it deeply, what was before the NHS??
And what was it like? Can’t imagine it was very good?
I suppose something like that only being around for 75 years is still quite ‘new’ when you think about it. [Post edited 5 Jul 2023 16:37]
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| Question for the older members of the board… on 22:21 - Jul 5 with 1818 views | Ryorry |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 17:38 - Jul 5 by BlueBadger |
Must be a weird dichotomy for you Hazza, claiming to have a lotta love for the NHS whilst having no actual respect for its workers.
So who were the boris 7? (n/t) by HARRY10 19 Jun 2023 23:18No, just wonder why you reply with such stupidity so often.
What might seem odd to the layman has significance to those in the know. Not me. When taken my law degree I was tutored on Parliament etc by someone called Dr Stephen Coleman, who worked for Hansard. I stayed in touch and he put some freelance work my way over the years.
Amongst explaining why some MPs are called m'learned friend and others m'honourable friend was how stuff is recorded in the house.
If you think I am lying please feel free to point it out. Making snide digs neither becomes you (I hope) or helps the debate.
So do try to live up to being a porter, or whatever it is you do.
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I'd always thought h10 was just slightly potty but amusing, & made some good points, so regularly upvoted him.
However, since he's started with the personal attacks & insults because I once slightly disagreed with him, he's shown he's nothing more than an unpleasant tory-enabling fool. |  |
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| Question for the older members of the board… on 22:30 - Jul 5 with 1808 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 20:54 - Jul 5 by Ryorry |
I's still offensive to those of us over 60 s who are vehemently opposed to the tories & everything they do, esp the current bunch of a*holes, to suggest as H did that we *all* vote for the #ToryCriminalsUnfitToGovern though. |
It is also, in my view, a poorly positioned argument.
It is true that the voting demographic, as determined by YouGov polling of the 2019 GE (below), shows a clear correlation between age and voting intentions (the older you are the more likely you are to vote Conservative). But if we are to bring age into it perhaps the most telling statement in that analysis is this,
"The tipping point - the age at which a voter is more likely to have voted Conservative than Labour - is now 39, down from 47 at the last election."
I am sure (or at least hopeful) that similar analysis of the next General Election will show a reversal of that latter trend.
I would not single out in such broad-brush terms any particular age group for criticism but if one were to want to do so then the YouGov numbers seem to suggest that it is those aged 40 and over who should be one's target.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-vot |  |
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| Question for the older members of the board… on 22:38 - Jul 5 with 1797 views | Ryorry |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 22:30 - Jul 5 by You_Bloo_Right |
It is also, in my view, a poorly positioned argument.
It is true that the voting demographic, as determined by YouGov polling of the 2019 GE (below), shows a clear correlation between age and voting intentions (the older you are the more likely you are to vote Conservative). But if we are to bring age into it perhaps the most telling statement in that analysis is this,
"The tipping point - the age at which a voter is more likely to have voted Conservative than Labour - is now 39, down from 47 at the last election."
I am sure (or at least hopeful) that similar analysis of the next General Election will show a reversal of that latter trend.
I would not single out in such broad-brush terms any particular age group for criticism but if one were to want to do so then the YouGov numbers seem to suggest that it is those aged 40 and over who should be one's target.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-vot |
Having been a YouGov 'participant' for many years, I've found most of their polls flawed on at least one question each time, eg 'what's your occupation?' with no option for 'retired', yet having to tick one box or another to be able to proceed, so I'd need to see other polls before believing that.
If the 2016 Referendum is anything to go by, then the numbers of those who either choose not to vote, or aren't able to, would seem a major concern, even more so now with the new ID restrictions. | |
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| Question for the older members of the board… on 22:59 - Jul 5 with 1779 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 22:38 - Jul 5 by Ryorry |
Having been a YouGov 'participant' for many years, I've found most of their polls flawed on at least one question each time, eg 'what's your occupation?' with no option for 'retired', yet having to tick one box or another to be able to proceed, so I'd need to see other polls before believing that.
If the 2016 Referendum is anything to go by, then the numbers of those who either choose not to vote, or aren't able to, would seem a major concern, even more so now with the new ID restrictions. |
Undoubtedly Ryorry and point taken on YouGov polling. Voter turnout needs more focus. Perhaps "why aren't more people voting?" is a more important question than "why aren't more people voting for (insert party of choice here)?".
Turnout at general elections has not topped 70% since 1997 and even that was the lowest figure for over 60 years. I fear that the behaviour of certain of our politicians in recent years, let alone the voter ID issue, will only serve to depress that figure still further.
The legitimacy of any democratic government is weakened by low turnout as it is strengthened by high. | |
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| Question for the older members of the board… on 23:04 - Jul 5 with 1774 views | MattinLondon |
It seems like it’s fashionable to criticise NHS Managers and admin staff when in truth, a lot of managers were made redundant years ago. Plus, without its admin staff no one would ever get an appointment or have their tests and procedures booked etc. |  | | |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 23:22 - Jul 5 with 1766 views | Ryorry |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 23:04 - Jul 5 by MattinLondon |
It seems like it’s fashionable to criticise NHS Managers and admin staff when in truth, a lot of managers were made redundant years ago. Plus, without its admin staff no one would ever get an appointment or have their tests and procedures booked etc. |
Quite, and better (and/or more) NHS admin/digital systems would help reduce pressure on beds & the front-line staff & services.
I had a day-long procedure in Dec. 2019 requiring me to stay in overnight only because I hadn't been told that I could have gone straight home the same day if I'd had a friend staying overnight with me, which I could easily have organised had I known.
They had my address incorrect on the digital system 5 years after I'd moved house & registered my new address with the (same) GP surgery.
The letter I got with the appointment gave it as being at a different (incorrect) hospital, but I just about got to the correct hospital 12 miles away in time, thanks to a helpful receptionist at the first one. I found a letter correcting the misinformation of the original one awaiting me when I eventually got back home next day!
Definitely room for improvement! | |
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| Question for the older members of the board… on 23:33 - Jul 5 with 1762 views | Rocky |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 20:56 - Jul 5 by PhilTWTD |
I had an aunt who told me about having her teeth out as a 21st birthday present. |
Oped you andn't mentioned at phil
love, auntie |  | | |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 23:39 - Jul 5 with 1752 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 17:38 - Jul 5 by BlueBadger |
Must be a weird dichotomy for you Hazza, claiming to have a lotta love for the NHS whilst having no actual respect for its workers.
So who were the boris 7? (n/t) by HARRY10 19 Jun 2023 23:18No, just wonder why you reply with such stupidity so often.
What might seem odd to the layman has significance to those in the know. Not me. When taken my law degree I was tutored on Parliament etc by someone called Dr Stephen Coleman, who worked for Hansard. I stayed in touch and he put some freelance work my way over the years.
Amongst explaining why some MPs are called m'learned friend and others m'honourable friend was how stuff is recorded in the house.
If you think I am lying please feel free to point it out. Making snide digs neither becomes you (I hope) or helps the debate.
So do try to live up to being a porter, or whatever it is you do.
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Jesus. Not been on here much this summer but that’s proper out of order.
Harry you’re a bellend. |  |
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| Question for the older members of the board… on 02:34 - Jul 6 with 1738 views | jontysnut |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 20:11 - Jul 5 by factual_blue |
Fair point, but I would think that many of the administrators are doing jobs that might otherwise consume the time of medically trained staff, particularly clerical type work. Others, perhaps at sort of middle management levels, are health care professionals who've moved into management roles where operational experience (no pun intended) is important.
But I'm no expert. |
This from Managers in Partnership from earlier this year
"Despite the government's politically charged and disrespectful rhetoric, NHS managers do their job to keep clinical colleagues on the frontline, treating patients and away from paperwork.
“But with such a slim management resource, many patient facing staff are being taken away from their clinical duties to fill the gap left by undermanagement. This is counter-productive and undermines efforts to bring down the backlog and get the NHS back to where it should be, delivering high quality, timely care to those who need it."
A while ago I spoke to an NHS professor who was seconded to one of the big consultancies. He said there everything was done to maximise use of his brainpower. In the NHS he spent hours of non-clinical activity before he even saw a patient. More support staff would have made him and his team more productive. |  | | |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 04:58 - Jul 6 with 1724 views | LegendofthePhoenix |
This thread has amazed and shocked me. On the NHS 75th birthday, something all Brits should be able to proudly celebrate, what started by Sitters as an honest and genuine question has ended up becoming a mudslinging slugfest.
The overwhelming views on this forum are left leaning and supportive of public sector and NHS, yet on this thread H10 is accusing NHS workers and supporters as being "righties". What is going on Harry? Some of the views you've expressed are not only wrong, they're offensive.
Those of us who work in the NHS are all too aware of how it's been underfunded by the Tories, and it has become a helluva struggle to keep trying in an organisation that is being suffocated by the government, and that gets criticised by the right wing press when it fails due to the cuts imposed by the right wing government. So there's no need to add to it by making digs at BB (although he's big and ugly enough to look after himself) or others who defend the NHS as being righties - that's just plain wrong mate. |  |
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| Question for the older members of the board… on 08:14 - Jul 6 with 1677 views | DJR |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 04:58 - Jul 6 by LegendofthePhoenix |
This thread has amazed and shocked me. On the NHS 75th birthday, something all Brits should be able to proudly celebrate, what started by Sitters as an honest and genuine question has ended up becoming a mudslinging slugfest.
The overwhelming views on this forum are left leaning and supportive of public sector and NHS, yet on this thread H10 is accusing NHS workers and supporters as being "righties". What is going on Harry? Some of the views you've expressed are not only wrong, they're offensive.
Those of us who work in the NHS are all too aware of how it's been underfunded by the Tories, and it has become a helluva struggle to keep trying in an organisation that is being suffocated by the government, and that gets criticised by the right wing press when it fails due to the cuts imposed by the right wing government. So there's no need to add to it by making digs at BB (although he's big and ugly enough to look after himself) or others who defend the NHS as being righties - that's just plain wrong mate. |
Trying to drag the thread back to the question in the OP, my dad's father died in 1935 at the age of 50 when my dad was 7, and my mum's mother died in 1939 at the age of 38 when my mum was 12.
Of course, there weren't the advances in medicine in those days that there are now, but I do wonder if the absence of a fully integrated health system meant that one or both of them died earlier than they should have. |  | | |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 08:25 - Jul 6 with 1657 views | Churchman |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 22:05 - Jul 5 by BlueBadger |
Anyone thinking that portering is lowly job has clearly never pissed off a hospital porter. |
There’s no such thing as a ‘lowly job’ in my world. Every job is important and everyone should be treated with respect. Properly as one expects to be treated oneself. It has always amazed me that so many people ignore that. [Post edited 6 Jul 2023 9:23]
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| Question for the older members of the board… on 08:49 - Jul 6 with 1634 views | jontysnut |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 08:25 - Jul 6 by Churchman |
There’s no such thing as a ‘lowly job’ in my world. Every job is important and everyone should be treated with respect. Properly as one expects to be treated oneself. It has always amazed me that so many people ignore that. [Post edited 6 Jul 2023 9:23]
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The Chief Executive of NHS Employers started as an NHS porter. | | | |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 08:54 - Jul 6 with 1637 views | Churchman |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 08:14 - Jul 6 by DJR |
Trying to drag the thread back to the question in the OP, my dad's father died in 1935 at the age of 50 when my dad was 7, and my mum's mother died in 1939 at the age of 38 when my mum was 12.
Of course, there weren't the advances in medicine in those days that there are now, but I do wonder if the absence of a fully integrated health system meant that one or both of them died earlier than they should have. |
It’s possible though diet and lifestyle were of course a key element. My dad’s parents lived to a decent age for the time, but they’d not known poverty, had a family doctor etc. it seems odd, but they both had all their teeth removed in the 1920s. They’d have been in their late 20s I suppose, but it was thought at the time teeth caused ill health. Weird.
My mother’s family all came from the Rows in Yarmouth and lived hand to mouth so I doubt doctors and dentists figured much. My grandfather died young (WW1 effects?), but his misses lived to a good age and never saw a doctor. Luck of the draw.
The point is that the NHS was about universal health care and the principle is as sound now as it was then. It shouldn’t be about wealth and privilege. The US three tier health system based on what you can afford disgusts me.
Whatever is wrong with the NHS, and it isn’t the amazing people who work within it, it can be improved and developed closer to the principles that created it. The first thing you have to have is to believe in it and will to it. The current government just don’t have that. They’re not interested. Never were.
From 1982 CPRS Report re a compulsory insurance/private provision: ‘This would have course mean the end of the National Health Service. It would also mean leaving to individuals how far they insured against facing high costs of health care, and it would be important to monitor the growth of private health insurance over the intervening period. Given that the State would in the last resort meet the costs of necessary health care, there could be a danger of under-insurance by a large part of the working population, and thought might therefore have to be given to a scheme for compulsory private insurance.’
This was leaked, Thatcher denied it was an aim, but the hag tried to press ahead on it regardless.
The tories agreed with the above, but we’re scared about the backlash, seats wise. This mindset hasn’t changed. ‘We can’t afford it’. Healthcare, including social care, cost about £200bn year. The economy is £3tn. We can afford it. [Post edited 6 Jul 2023 11:59]
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| Question for the older members of the board… on 09:18 - Jul 6 with 1608 views | Ryorry |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 04:58 - Jul 6 by LegendofthePhoenix |
This thread has amazed and shocked me. On the NHS 75th birthday, something all Brits should be able to proudly celebrate, what started by Sitters as an honest and genuine question has ended up becoming a mudslinging slugfest.
The overwhelming views on this forum are left leaning and supportive of public sector and NHS, yet on this thread H10 is accusing NHS workers and supporters as being "righties". What is going on Harry? Some of the views you've expressed are not only wrong, they're offensive.
Those of us who work in the NHS are all too aware of how it's been underfunded by the Tories, and it has become a helluva struggle to keep trying in an organisation that is being suffocated by the government, and that gets criticised by the right wing press when it fails due to the cuts imposed by the right wing government. So there's no need to add to it by making digs at BB (although he's big and ugly enough to look after himself) or others who defend the NHS as being righties - that's just plain wrong mate. |
It's worse than that - h10 (and others) who deliberately set out not just to antagonise but also divide Labour voters, are giving footholds in the door to wretched tory candidates, & a potential further disastrous tory govt. at the next GE. | |
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| Question for the older members of the board… on 09:22 - Jul 6 with 1596 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 08:54 - Jul 6 by Churchman |
It’s possible though diet and lifestyle were of course a key element. My dad’s parents lived to a decent age for the time, but they’d not known poverty, had a family doctor etc. it seems odd, but they both had all their teeth removed in the 1920s. They’d have been in their late 20s I suppose, but it was thought at the time teeth caused ill health. Weird.
My mother’s family all came from the Rows in Yarmouth and lived hand to mouth so I doubt doctors and dentists figured much. My grandfather died young (WW1 effects?), but his misses lived to a good age and never saw a doctor. Luck of the draw.
The point is that the NHS was about universal health care and the principle is as sound now as it was then. It shouldn’t be about wealth and privilege. The US three tier health system based on what you can afford disgusts me.
Whatever is wrong with the NHS, and it isn’t the amazing people who work within it, it can be improved and developed closer to the principles that created it. The first thing you have to have is to believe in it and will to it. The current government just don’t have that. They’re not interested. Never were.
From 1982 CPRS Report re a compulsory insurance/private provision: ‘This would have course mean the end of the National Health Service. It would also mean leaving to individuals how far they insured against facing high costs of health care, and it would be important to monitor the growth of private health insurance over the intervening period. Given that the State would in the last resort meet the costs of necessary health care, there could be a danger of under-insurance by a large part of the working population, and thought might therefore have to be given to a scheme for compulsory private insurance.’
This was leaked, Thatcher denied it was an aim, but the hag tried to press ahead on it regardless.
The tories agreed with the above, but we’re scared about the backlash, seats wise. This mindset hasn’t changed. ‘We can’t afford it’. Healthcare, including social care, cost about £200bn year. The economy is £3tn. We can afford it. [Post edited 6 Jul 2023 11:59]
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At the risk of being pedantic - where did you get the health and social care figure from in your last sentence.
I think you may have missed a couple of ‘0’s! |  | | |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 09:31 - Jul 6 with 1588 views | blueasfook |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 08:54 - Jul 6 by Churchman |
It’s possible though diet and lifestyle were of course a key element. My dad’s parents lived to a decent age for the time, but they’d not known poverty, had a family doctor etc. it seems odd, but they both had all their teeth removed in the 1920s. They’d have been in their late 20s I suppose, but it was thought at the time teeth caused ill health. Weird.
My mother’s family all came from the Rows in Yarmouth and lived hand to mouth so I doubt doctors and dentists figured much. My grandfather died young (WW1 effects?), but his misses lived to a good age and never saw a doctor. Luck of the draw.
The point is that the NHS was about universal health care and the principle is as sound now as it was then. It shouldn’t be about wealth and privilege. The US three tier health system based on what you can afford disgusts me.
Whatever is wrong with the NHS, and it isn’t the amazing people who work within it, it can be improved and developed closer to the principles that created it. The first thing you have to have is to believe in it and will to it. The current government just don’t have that. They’re not interested. Never were.
From 1982 CPRS Report re a compulsory insurance/private provision: ‘This would have course mean the end of the National Health Service. It would also mean leaving to individuals how far they insured against facing high costs of health care, and it would be important to monitor the growth of private health insurance over the intervening period. Given that the State would in the last resort meet the costs of necessary health care, there could be a danger of under-insurance by a large part of the working population, and thought might therefore have to be given to a scheme for compulsory private insurance.’
This was leaked, Thatcher denied it was an aim, but the hag tried to press ahead on it regardless.
The tories agreed with the above, but we’re scared about the backlash, seats wise. This mindset hasn’t changed. ‘We can’t afford it’. Healthcare, including social care, cost about £200bn year. The economy is £3tn. We can afford it. [Post edited 6 Jul 2023 11:59]
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In the days of old, teeth were actually a major cause of death. I love this image (it is from the 17th century) some of the causes of death are very strange. I imagine the teeth thing mainly being infections due to rotten teeth which became worse as there was no such things as antibiotics.
 [Post edited 6 Jul 2023 9:32]
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| Question for the older members of the board… on 09:33 - Jul 6 with 1583 views | Ryorry |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 08:54 - Jul 6 by Churchman |
It’s possible though diet and lifestyle were of course a key element. My dad’s parents lived to a decent age for the time, but they’d not known poverty, had a family doctor etc. it seems odd, but they both had all their teeth removed in the 1920s. They’d have been in their late 20s I suppose, but it was thought at the time teeth caused ill health. Weird.
My mother’s family all came from the Rows in Yarmouth and lived hand to mouth so I doubt doctors and dentists figured much. My grandfather died young (WW1 effects?), but his misses lived to a good age and never saw a doctor. Luck of the draw.
The point is that the NHS was about universal health care and the principle is as sound now as it was then. It shouldn’t be about wealth and privilege. The US three tier health system based on what you can afford disgusts me.
Whatever is wrong with the NHS, and it isn’t the amazing people who work within it, it can be improved and developed closer to the principles that created it. The first thing you have to have is to believe in it and will to it. The current government just don’t have that. They’re not interested. Never were.
From 1982 CPRS Report re a compulsory insurance/private provision: ‘This would have course mean the end of the National Health Service. It would also mean leaving to individuals how far they insured against facing high costs of health care, and it would be important to monitor the growth of private health insurance over the intervening period. Given that the State would in the last resort meet the costs of necessary health care, there could be a danger of under-insurance by a large part of the working population, and thought might therefore have to be given to a scheme for compulsory private insurance.’
This was leaked, Thatcher denied it was an aim, but the hag tried to press ahead on it regardless.
The tories agreed with the above, but we’re scared about the backlash, seats wise. This mindset hasn’t changed. ‘We can’t afford it’. Healthcare, including social care, cost about £200bn year. The economy is £3tn. We can afford it. [Post edited 6 Jul 2023 11:59]
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Really shocked to hear on a BBC radio docu y'day that the life expectancy for UK men just prior to the inception of the NHS, was 48 
When applying for visas for a holiday to the USA in the '80s, I had to choose whether to accept or permanently decline US citizenship (my Dad was born there, though the family returned to E. Europe shortly afterwards, he kept dual citizenship right through his life).
I declined, purely on the grounds that I was likely to need medical care, ie the NHS, later in my life for one already existing condition, which would be unaffordable in the USA. For that reason alone, I knew I could never live in the States. | |
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| Question for the older members of the board… on 09:46 - Jul 6 with 1559 views | BiGDonnie |
I'm 37, do I qualify as old? I certainly feel it haha |  |
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| Question for the older members of the board… on 10:10 - Jul 6 with 1537 views | Ryorry |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 22:05 - Jul 5 by BlueBadger |
Anyone thinking that portering is lowly job has clearly never pissed off a hospital porter. |
I’ll wish him luck with his journey from ward to operating theatre if he’s ever unlucky enough to be admitted with a broken leg, hip, etc! | |
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| Question for the older members of the board… on 11:58 - Jul 6 with 1492 views | Churchman |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 09:22 - Jul 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
At the risk of being pedantic - where did you get the health and social care figure from in your last sentence.
I think you may have missed a couple of ‘0’s! |
I did! Good spot! £200bn.
The point is still (in my view) still relevant despite my appalling maths! | | | |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 12:07 - Jul 6 with 1488 views | Churchman |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 09:41 - Jul 6 by WeWereZombies |
That's an interesting list, 6 dead in the street and starved - the good old days, eh ? And I have found out that King's Evil is actually scrofula. I guess French pox was an STD. |
8 Plague. Bet they were popular. It’s an interesting table. The high numbers who died of TB are noticeable. French pox was syphilis. It was allegedly spread by French soldiers though I bet they were not the only perpetrators. In JMVH it says:
‘The disease started with genital ulcers, then progressed to a fever, general rash and joint and muscle pains, then weeks or months later were followed by large, painful and foul-smelling abscesses and sores, or pocks, all over the body. Muscles and bones became painful, especially at night. The sores became ulcers that could eat into bones and destroy the nose, lips and eyes. They often extended into the mouth and throat, and sometimes early death occurred. It appears from descriptions by scholars and from woodcut drawings at the time that the disease was much more severe than the syphilis of today, with a higher and more rapid mortality and was more easily spread, possibly because it was a new disease and the population had no immunity against it.’
Not so good then. | | | |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 12:11 - Jul 6 with 1473 views | DanTheMan |
| Question for the older members of the board… on 09:41 - Jul 6 by WeWereZombies |
That's an interesting list, 6 dead in the street and starved - the good old days, eh ? And I have found out that King's Evil is actually scrofula. I guess French pox was an STD. |
I'm more worried about the 6 planet related fatalities. |  |
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