| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 17:16 - Jul 17 with 1403 views | noggin |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 15:23 - Jul 17 by blueasfook |
Anyways, I'll keep you off the div list for now until you can demonstrate with some proper data how Britain is a Xenophobic country - well at least, more Xenophobic than most.
I'll wait... |
"Anyways, I'll keep you off the div list for now"
You're too kind. |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 17:28 - Jul 17 with 1368 views | Darth_Koont |
That’s guesswork though. Amid the bigger picture of how you start redistributing wealth.
Anyway, the point remains that the policy on reforming UC and addressing the two-child limit was there in the manifesto. |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:01 - Jul 17 with 1283 views | blueasfook |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 17:14 - Jul 17 by noggin |
I didn't say it was more xenophobic than most. I'm sure you agree though, that the overreaction to the small boats, is ridiculous and that brexit was largely based on 'controlling' immigration? |
"Brexit was largely based on immigration" - how do you know this? Again, produce some data that shows that was most people's reason for voting to leave the EU. I thought it was the extra £350m a week for the NHS that suckered everyone in?
In future, if you are going to make aspersions based on your own guardian-influenced view of the world, then please provide some data to back them up. |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:07 - Jul 17 with 1279 views | Herbivore |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:01 - Jul 17 by blueasfook |
"Brexit was largely based on immigration" - how do you know this? Again, produce some data that shows that was most people's reason for voting to leave the EU. I thought it was the extra £350m a week for the NHS that suckered everyone in?
In future, if you are going to make aspersions based on your own guardian-influenced view of the world, then please provide some data to back them up. |
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/partner-reports/peoples-stated-reasons-for-voting-leave-or |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:09 - Jul 17 with 1276 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:01 - Jul 17 by blueasfook |
"Brexit was largely based on immigration" - how do you know this? Again, produce some data that shows that was most people's reason for voting to leave the EU. I thought it was the extra £350m a week for the NHS that suckered everyone in?
In future, if you are going to make aspersions based on your own guardian-influenced view of the world, then please provide some data to back them up. |
🎶 Sh1t Stokie Blue, your just a sh1t Stokie Blue....🎶 |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:12 - Jul 17 with 1274 views | Darth_Koont |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:01 - Jul 17 by blueasfook |
"Brexit was largely based on immigration" - how do you know this? Again, produce some data that shows that was most people's reason for voting to leave the EU. I thought it was the extra £350m a week for the NHS that suckered everyone in?
In future, if you are going to make aspersions based on your own guardian-influenced view of the world, then please provide some data to back them up. |
Who are you trying to kid? Yourself?
Our politics has been dominated by xenophobia over the past decade or so. Whether the country itself is as xenophobic as its politics is a separate question.
Probably not. But then the whole country is not really like the predominantly right-wing political class and media who control it. | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:13 - Jul 17 with 1272 views | Blueschev |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:01 - Jul 17 by blueasfook |
"Brexit was largely based on immigration" - how do you know this? Again, produce some data that shows that was most people's reason for voting to leave the EU. I thought it was the extra £350m a week for the NHS that suckered everyone in?
In future, if you are going to make aspersions based on your own guardian-influenced view of the world, then please provide some data to back them up. |
A quick google search indicates exactly that. Immigration was a huge factor in why people voted to leave. |  | | |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:15 - Jul 17 with 1267 views | DJR |
A friend of mine who worked for the Labour Party under Blair, but left the party a couple of years ago due to disillusionment with the party, said to me recently that he thought that many people based their political opinions to a large degree on opposition to a particular party or their policies.
The following article appears to support this, and perhaps we are reaching the zenith of this phenomenon under Starmer, as there can't be many wedded to what he is proposing.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/03/29/why-do-people-belong-to-a-par
Of course, with the Tories in power for much of the last 44 years, it is perhaps not surprising that what one might call "antagonism" is a major factor for those who support Labour. |  | | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:16 - Jul 17 with 1259 views | noggin |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:01 - Jul 17 by blueasfook |
"Brexit was largely based on immigration" - how do you know this? Again, produce some data that shows that was most people's reason for voting to leave the EU. I thought it was the extra £350m a week for the NHS that suckered everyone in?
In future, if you are going to make aspersions based on your own guardian-influenced view of the world, then please provide some data to back them up. |
"After controlling for factors such as education, age and the overall level of immigration, communities that over the past decade had experienced an increase in migration from EU member states were somewhat more likely to vote for Brexit."
https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack- | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:19 - Jul 17 with 1243 views | EastAnglianBoy |
Does anyone else feel really politically homeless?
Always voted Lab since the first election after I turned 18- but to me it feels like Starmer isnt too different to the Tories...
Might vote Ind for the "Lolz". |  | | |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:21 - Jul 17 with 1236 views | DJR |
That report suggests to me why the Remain campaign got it wrong.
The leave campaign won primarily on immigration and sovereignty which are emotive issues. In contrast, the economy is a dry issue and not really an emotive issue at all.
Why, oh why, didn't Remain campaign more on emotive issues, such as cultural ties with Europe, internationalism, Brits able to live, work and retire abroad, and the original aim of the EU to prevent war in Europe, all of which were my main motivation? [Post edited 17 Jul 2023 18:29]
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:29 - Jul 17 with 1203 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:21 - Jul 17 by DJR |
That report suggests to me why the Remain campaign got it wrong.
The leave campaign won primarily on immigration and sovereignty which are emotive issues. In contrast, the economy is a dry issue and not really an emotive issue at all.
Why, oh why, didn't Remain campaign more on emotive issues, such as cultural ties with Europe, internationalism, Brits able to live, work and retire abroad, and the original aim of the EU to prevent war in Europe, all of which were my main motivation? [Post edited 17 Jul 2023 18:29]
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Because people struggling by on a council estate in Salford don’t have internationalism high on their agenda? I have family up there that have never been able to afford to go abroad, so they have zero cultural connection to Milan or Lisbon.
The North has largely been passed by on the economic benefits of the EU due to the ridiculous level of centralisation in this country, the Boris’ push for his fictional ‘levelling up’. | | | |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:30 - Jul 17 with 1197 views | Blueschev |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:21 - Jul 17 by DJR |
That report suggests to me why the Remain campaign got it wrong.
The leave campaign won primarily on immigration and sovereignty which are emotive issues. In contrast, the economy is a dry issue and not really an emotive issue at all.
Why, oh why, didn't Remain campaign more on emotive issues, such as cultural ties with Europe, internationalism, Brits able to live, work and retire abroad, and the original aim of the EU to prevent war in Europe, all of which were my main motivation? [Post edited 17 Jul 2023 18:29]
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It was always a much easier campaign for leave. They could say Brexit was anything they wanted it to be. Remain on the other hand had to sell a complex and imperfect institution whose workings most people didn't understand (including those running both campaigns) to a sceptical public. It's a far harder sell. | | | |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:35 - Jul 17 with 1179 views | Darth_Koont |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:21 - Jul 17 by DJR |
That report suggests to me why the Remain campaign got it wrong.
The leave campaign won primarily on immigration and sovereignty which are emotive issues. In contrast, the economy is a dry issue and not really an emotive issue at all.
Why, oh why, didn't Remain campaign more on emotive issues, such as cultural ties with Europe, internationalism, Brits able to live, work and retire abroad, and the original aim of the EU to prevent war in Europe, all of which were my main motivation? [Post edited 17 Jul 2023 18:29]
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I agree.
Unfortunately the Tory and Labour politicians of the past 30-odd years always used the EU as an excuse/easy target for anything and everything. And they rarely if ever stood up for the EU and our membership beyond the economic reality (even that wasn’t really talked about enough).
Suddenly pretending that we were significantly better off in Europe than outside wasn’t going to overcome generations of anti-EU rhetoric and indeed lies.
Honestly, we’re a danger to ourselves.  | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:38 - Jul 17 with 1166 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:19 - Jul 17 by EastAnglianBoy |
Does anyone else feel really politically homeless?
Always voted Lab since the first election after I turned 18- but to me it feels like Starmer isnt too different to the Tories...
Might vote Ind for the "Lolz". |
Yep. I can always fall back on Plaid though to win some brownie points off the Mrs  (although that’s a wasted vote in my constituency). |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:38 - Jul 17 with 1165 views | Darth_Koont |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:29 - Jul 17 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Because people struggling by on a council estate in Salford don’t have internationalism high on their agenda? I have family up there that have never been able to afford to go abroad, so they have zero cultural connection to Milan or Lisbon.
The North has largely been passed by on the economic benefits of the EU due to the ridiculous level of centralisation in this country, the Boris’ push for his fictional ‘levelling up’. |
Scotland and to some extent Wales didn’t fall in the same way for blaming the EU. The penny had already dropped how centralised money and power was passing them by. | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:55 - Jul 17 with 1118 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:29 - Jul 17 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Because people struggling by on a council estate in Salford don’t have internationalism high on their agenda? I have family up there that have never been able to afford to go abroad, so they have zero cultural connection to Milan or Lisbon.
The North has largely been passed by on the economic benefits of the EU due to the ridiculous level of centralisation in this country, the Boris’ push for his fictional ‘levelling up’. |
That appears to be a sweeping generalisation about people living on council estates.
The interesting thing is that Scotland as a whole has many areas just like Salford, and Scotland has traditionally had a much higher proportion of council house than England, but it still voted to Remain.
I might add that I have relatives in Bootle and Walton, quite poor areas of Liverpool, but they all voted Remain, maybe influenced by the more "internationalist" nature of Liverpool.
At the end of the day, it was probably older people "wot won it", but they, with perhaps experience of the war or national service, might have been more amenable to a more internationalist campaign. Certainly, the economic campaign would have fallen flat on pensioners with a guaranteed income.
And as regards centralisation, that is not the fault of the EU. [Post edited 17 Jul 2023 18:59]
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 19:00 - Jul 17 with 1092 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:55 - Jul 17 by DJR |
That appears to be a sweeping generalisation about people living on council estates.
The interesting thing is that Scotland as a whole has many areas just like Salford, and Scotland has traditionally had a much higher proportion of council house than England, but it still voted to Remain.
I might add that I have relatives in Bootle and Walton, quite poor areas of Liverpool, but they all voted Remain, maybe influenced by the more "internationalist" nature of Liverpool.
At the end of the day, it was probably older people "wot won it", but they, with perhaps experience of the war or national service, might have been more amenable to a more internationalist campaign. Certainly, the economic campaign would have fallen flat on pensioners with a guaranteed income.
And as regards centralisation, that is not the fault of the EU. [Post edited 17 Jul 2023 18:59]
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Nearly 40% of those in Scotland who voted in the referendum, voted to leave.
I would imagine those votes were mostly from deprived areas. |  |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 19:09 - Jul 17 with 1074 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 18:55 - Jul 17 by DJR |
That appears to be a sweeping generalisation about people living on council estates.
The interesting thing is that Scotland as a whole has many areas just like Salford, and Scotland has traditionally had a much higher proportion of council house than England, but it still voted to Remain.
I might add that I have relatives in Bootle and Walton, quite poor areas of Liverpool, but they all voted Remain, maybe influenced by the more "internationalist" nature of Liverpool.
At the end of the day, it was probably older people "wot won it", but they, with perhaps experience of the war or national service, might have been more amenable to a more internationalist campaign. Certainly, the economic campaign would have fallen flat on pensioners with a guaranteed income.
And as regards centralisation, that is not the fault of the EU. [Post edited 17 Jul 2023 18:59]
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“And as regards centralisation, that is not the fault of the EU”
I never inferred it was - in fact they’ve done more for development in our poorer regions than our own pathetic governments. | | | |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 19:26 - Jul 17 with 1045 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 19:00 - Jul 17 by GlasgowBlue |
Nearly 40% of those in Scotland who voted in the referendum, voted to leave.
I would imagine those votes were mostly from deprived areas. |
You imagine.
I imagine that many Tories in Scotland voted for Brexit, not all of whom were poor.
And the Scottish UKIP leader, whom I knew well at university, went to Glasgow High School.
EDIT: the largest Leave vote percentages actually occurred in rural places like Moray and Dumfries and Galloway, not areas known for their deprivation. [Post edited 18 Jul 2023 7:49]
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 19:26 - Jul 17 with 1042 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 19:09 - Jul 17 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“And as regards centralisation, that is not the fault of the EU”
I never inferred it was - in fact they’ve done more for development in our poorer regions than our own pathetic governments. |
Sorry, I misread what you said. | | | |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 20:40 - Jul 17 with 960 views | ibbleobble |
To The Guardian? Seems that’s the foundation for all rational thought on this forum. | | | |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 20:54 - Jul 17 with 950 views | Darth_Koont |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 20:40 - Jul 17 by ibbleobble |
To The Guardian? Seems that’s the foundation for all rational thought on this forum. |
That’s not a very rational response. | |
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 21:06 - Jul 17 with 920 views | ibbleobble |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 20:54 - Jul 17 by Darth_Koont |
That’s not a very rational response. |
It’s the most consistently cited median on this forum so it’s perfectly rationale given it’s central to every discussion going. I assume folk are maximising their subscription to the fullest as a means for reasoned debate and it’s a sound median in the context of non-profit medians but some alternative citations wouldn’t go amiss for more balanced debate. [Post edited 17 Jul 2023 21:46]
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| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 21:17 - Jul 17 with 914 views | DJR |
| Keir Starmer is threatening to leave our crises unchanged… on 20:40 - Jul 17 by ibbleobble |
To The Guardian? Seems that’s the foundation for all rational thought on this forum. |
Sadly, its equivalents, the Times, the Telegraph and the FT, all have a paywall, which rather limits them as a source for debate. Personally, I would prefer to read what they are saying too.
The other way of looking at things is that if we had had 13 years of a Labour government, no doubt it would be Labour supporters in the minority on the general forum. [Post edited 17 Jul 2023 21:55]
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